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Abortion still under control in Poland

Polonius3 1,000 | 12,446
10 Apr 2016 #991
a girl aborting

Who is failing to teach young girls about the importance of chastity, abstinence, sexual restraint, not spreading your legs for anyone who wouldn't want to go through life with. Who has failed: the family, the school, the Church, the entertainment industry, the news media or who?
mafketis 24 | 9,387
10 Apr 2016 #992
sexual restraint, not spreading your legs for anyone

what a cesspool of a mind you have....
jon357 66 | 17,078
10 Apr 2016 #993
Exactly. Trying to impose a very negative view of the world and a very low impression of women.

As I've said before, the guy comes across here as having no redeeming features whatsoever. I sincerely hope the reality is different, but I very much doubt it.
Marsupial - | 886
10 Apr 2016 #994
Its extra weird to read people of opposite gender attempting to dictate to woman what she should do with here body. Soumds pretty sick and creepy to me. Yet the tirade of words continues, for some reason it involves made up deities and religious right wing fanatics? All because of some womans unwanted pregnancy. I guess it's true, if the delusions are strong enough they will seem like reality.
jon357 66 | 17,078
10 Apr 2016 #995
Indeed. If men could get pregnant, this discussion would simply not be happening.

Do you remember JPII's visit's to Poland? They stopped tampon adverts being shown on TV. Probably not because of the tiny offchance that he should spend part of his busy visit watching 'M jak Miłość' he might watch the commercials and learn for the first time that women menstruate, but hard to htink of any other reason.

A very good article here:

"Law and Justice do not care deeply about banning abortion. They are simply adept at manipulation,'' she said. "[They] know how to raise the temperature to boiling point as a diversionary tactic. We must be mindful of what else is going on while abortion is the hot issue."
InPolska 11 | 1,821
10 Apr 2016 #996
Hi Jon! Great article, thanks! Not nice to Polish government but so .... true! The Guardian is needless to say serious source (contrary to YouTube and whatever Daily Sh#### so often referred to here by ignorants)
Atch 17 | 3,429
10 Apr 2016 #997
teach young girls the importance of chastity,

For hundreds of years girls were taught that and it didn't stop them getting pregnant. What about teaching boys not to go pestering and pressurising young girls to sleep with them? Anyway no matter how much teaching you do, human nature is human nature. Nature has designed young men with a drive to procreate and that's that. So the sensible thing to do is to protect the young women by educating them about contraception and sexual health/hygiene together with the kind of education that encourages them to think about what they're doing and have the confidence and self respect to say 'no' if they don't want to.

Plus what about married women with more children than they can already cope with or afford to support? It's not just young single women who suffer crisis pregnancies. In Polly's world such women wouldn't have access to contraception so how are they supposed to limit their families. My paternal great grandmother had six children, a baby every eighteen months or so and it only stopped because her husband died after they'd been married ten years. My maternal great grandmother had thirteen children and died in childbirth leaving her youngest children motherless and the family split up between various relations and institutions, great society that was. With modern medical science she probably wouldn't have died and would have gone on to have God knows how many more...
InPolska 11 | 1,821
10 Apr 2016 #998
@Pol: even among Church people, chastity does not exist! How many abortions of nuns or of other women made pregnant by priests?Well, it's the same in the other religions. With religions, it is "do as I say not what I do". I know, in religions, best to pretend everything is alright. Pure hypocrisy!

@Pol: abortion does not only concern young girls but all women and I'm sure that most abortions are not by teenagers. Yes, I know, it's easier to believe Church propaganda according to which teenage "sl..ts" abort and they need to be punished. I suppose you have never met any woman who had to go through an abortion.

Anyway, whatever the Church will say, women have always aborted and will always do and within let's say max10 years, abortion will be legal in Poland.
Polonius3 1,000 | 12,446
10 Apr 2016 #999
learn for the first time that women menstruate

You even have no qualms about insulting the Greatest Pole that ever lived.

not spreading your legs

Cesspool? So you still believe in storks and cabbage patches?
jon357 66 | 17,078
10 Apr 2016 #1,000
You even have no qualms about insulting the Greatest Pole that ever lived.

Show such an insult, since you claim one.

And do you actually think there was any reason to censor tampon ads during his visit?
Ironside 50 | 10,940
10 Apr 2016 #1,001
If men could get pregnant, this discussion would simply not be happening.

Wrong. Such a classic feminist slogan that makes even less sense than feminism itself. I really expected better from you than repeating such a cliché that might appeal to some brainless fools.

If men could get pregnant they would become females of the species with all that such a position brings to the table.
jon357 66 | 17,078
11 Apr 2016 #1,002
Good news, it's likely not to happen

How is it in any way the business of any booby bishop or their political supporteres anyway, if a woman wants to get some of her own cells flushed out?

The real risk of course is that this is all a smokescreen - basically an attempt by Kaczynski, a notorious manipulator to propose a massively unpopular bill like this and use the obvious protests to mask some other sort of dirty deed that he's up to.

Worth following the news very carefully indeed at the moment.
InPolska 11 | 1,821
11 Apr 2016 #1,003
@Jon: as you are aware, the current Polish law is most restrictive and I'm sure that a lot of women in Poland would like to have abortion as easily available (and free of charge) as it is everywhere in Europe (with exceptions of only Ireland, Malta, Andorra and San Marino ;)).

Under current law, some 1,000 abortions are done per year in Poland whereas some 80,000 to 100,000 Polish women abort illegally. They either do it themselves with coat hangers, Domestos or knitting needles and when they have money they travel abroad each year (mainly of course to neighborhing countries, Germany, Czech, Slovakia and even Ukraine). I knew about abortion clinics in Czech near Polish border to accommodate Polish women but I did not know that Ukraine was liberal in terms of abortion (sure in places like Ukraine or Russia, they used to have abortions AS contraception but since after communism, they have become very religious but may be the Ukrainian Church is more progressive than the Polish Church ;))

(PS: numbers can be checked in all Polish medias as well as in foreign medias)

(PPS: #IamaPolishwoman)
mafketis 24 | 9,387
11 Apr 2016 #1,004
manipulator to propose a massively unpopular bill like this and use the obvious protests to mask some other sort of dirty deed

Or just to distract some people's attention away from yesterday's orgy or self-humiliation and agrieved victimhood?
InPolska 11 | 1,821
11 Apr 2016 #1,005
I remember some years ago when a Dutch boat transformed into an abortion clinic came near Polish coast but stayed in international waters to perform abortions in Poland inspite of then Polish government's uproar. Most probably we'll have more of such boats to come to Poland to help Polish women who cannot go abroad.

Besides, for quite a few years, there have been quite a few abortion clinics in the Czech Republic near the Polish borders and owners of said - private - clinics get "golden b..." (as said in France) out of it.

Again, pure hypocrisy! A lot of people are getting very rich with this kind of business whereas, an abortion being a medical act, should be performed in a hospital and free of charge (= NFZ in Poland)
11 Apr 2016 #1,006
How the hell does a woman perform an abortion with Domestos !
InPolska 11 | 1,821
11 Apr 2016 #1,007
True and well known in Poland! Check with women's associations for instance! Illegal abortions are performed not only with coat hangers ;). Women as so desperate that they use anything they can think of and that's the reason why abortion should be legal and thus performed in medical environments.

Only Valibans don't want to face reality!

@Tictatoe: the proof is a well-known fact in Poland. I used Google and I found 1,620,000 entries (in 0.54 seconds ;)) with keywords ;). There is also ... Ludwik used too ...
11 Apr 2016 #1,008
Hmmm I searched G but found nothing.

I can't believe anybody has to resort to methods like that in this day and age, crazy !.
InPolska 11 | 1,821
11 Apr 2016 #1,009
@Tictato: ps; I know it's hard to believe. First time when I was told, I refused to believe it..... Then I heard it from all sorts of people not connected with each other and now I know that this is the (sad) reality.

I checked through Google Polska: Polska - aborcja - domestos and only in the Polish language I got over 1.5 million entries.
11 Apr 2016 #1,010
Medieval to say the least.

I believe prevention ( contraception ) is a much safer and humane method, but should pregnancy occur and abortion be required you should be able to receive it in a clinic.

Domestos ! Kills all known germs, DEAD !, unreal.
InPolska 11 | 1,821
11 Apr 2016 #1,011
Yes, Tictatoe!: Like said, if you with key words, you should get tons of entries (in Polish language only). I know, in the 21st century it's hard to believe (and unfortunately Poland is not the only place where women have to rely on things of the kind).

Yes, Domestos sure does kills germs but let's imagine the damages to the women (probably even perforation).
AdrianK9 6 | 369
11 Apr 2016 #1,012
In this time and place if someone is not educated about something then it is his/her own damn fault.

I've never been to school in Poland past 1st grade, but I'd imagine that the education is very much influenced by tradition and Roman Catholic values. I highly doubt that a modern approach is taken towards sex, drugs, alcohol and other things most high school students learn in health class. I don't think that family planning is given much time in the classrooms or condoms are given out.

However, having a child and keeping it or not is a decision that does affect a person through their entire life.

You're comparing raising a cat to a child... two different things. Yes, both require responsibility and sacrifice but cat does not require clothing, an education, constant care, and so on. If someone loses their house or falls very ill, they can easily put their cat up online for adoption and chances are someone will take it in. As far as adoptions, we've seen that adoption rates are very low in Poland. Also, yes if I was a woman, a condom broke on me during sex and I found out I was pregnant then I most likely would chose an abortion as I am not ready to raise a child - especially if I was poor, in the middle of my education, had a bad job, the guy doesn't plan on being a real father, etc. Although your comparing a cat to a child, I wouldn't take a cat into my home either as I currently have a dog and that's already difficult enough to deal with when I'm travelling.

Who has failed: the family, the school, the Church, the entertainment industry, the news media or who?

Not every girl wants to be a nun. Would you really marry someone without seeing if you're sexually compatible and that she isn't a cold fish in the bedroom? No thanks...

I think the biggest failure is the lack of proper sexual education, teaching why and how to use a condom, and providing condoms anonymously.
Polonius3 1,000 | 12,446
11 Apr 2016 #1,013
Show such an insult

Suggesting this great intellectual knew nothing about menstruation is a supreme insult coming from a birdbrain not worthy to even utter his name.
jon357 66 | 17,078
11 Apr 2016 #1,014
Suggesting this great intellectual knew nothing about menstruation

Read the post carefully, Po, and try not to pretend that you misunderstand.

Just in case anyone is taken in by your usual misinformation, the post you pretend not to like was about the silly way the government in Poland behaved, pulling tampon ads from the TV during papal visits - for no sensible reason whatsoever.

Anyway, he was just a person, flawed like any other.

And given the misery caused to families in the developing world (and not only; in Poland too) denied birthcontrol, abortion etc) on his watch it would not be unreasonable to call his attitude to abortion an act of evil.
Polonius3 1,000 | 12,446
11 Apr 2016 #1,015
is most restrictive

Not restrictive but sensible. It allows abortion when the woman's life or health are in danger; when the foetus is severely damaged when pregnancy was the result of incest; and when it resutled from rape. It does not allow abortion on a whim, on request or on demand. The wholesale prenatal baby-butchery that goes on in libertinised countries is an absolute abomination. The people there really need to learn a bit about self-control. After all, they're not animals in heat are they?
InPolska 11 | 1,821
11 Apr 2016 #1,016
@Pol!: you are most naive if you believe that a woman can report and have a rape or incest acknoledged or even to get an abortion when her life is threatened. You are intelligent to understand that these are not OBJECTVE criteria...

I used to have a client from near Kutno and she told me that in her small town, there is a woman with 5 kids among whom at least 2 are from her father. Do you think that said woman could have entered a police station and accused her very father???? Do you think first of all that the cops would have believed her? What do you think could have happened to such child, in her family, in the neighborhoold? Do you think a underage teenage girl can simply accuse her father, grandfather, uncle etc etc ... of incest????

Most rapes and cases of incest are NOT reported and even when they are, there is no scientific proof that justice will acknowledge them. A lot of women are even ashamed so they do NOT report rapes and incest. And if the girl is pregnant, it's tough if she lives in a country like Poland and has no money to see a private doctor or to go abroad.

As to life threatening, there are a lot of women whose doctors refuse abortion because they are against abortion. Do you know the famous case in Poland of Alicja Tysiąc, who had Poland condemned by Strasbourg's court of justice.

I know on the paper, all looks great but the reality is otherwise.

As to the West, women do not abort on "whim"! Yesterday I was reading a report comparing Germany and Poland and percentagewise, German women do not abort more than Polish women. As to myself, I have never aborted and I only know a handful of women who did.

Obviously you prefer women to keep aborting while using coat hangers or Domestos....

Pathetic and even criminal to let women risk their lives!
jon357 66 | 17,078
11 Apr 2016 #1,017
when pregnancy was the result of incest;

Yeah right, some poor kid in a village is going to go through all that legal procedure just because her brother diddled her?
InPolska 11 | 1,821
11 Apr 2016 #1,018
Absolutely! Only most naive people think it is easy to report rape or incest and have them acknowledged by justice and that's why most rapes and cases of incest are NOT reported.

Yes, Jon, to imagine that a 14-year-old girl is going to report her father, uncle or grand-father because they sleep with her is pure stupidity! The poor kid will shut up and suffer in silence. Those guys also manipulate their victims and convince them that if they tall, nobody will believe them etc ... If she has the misfortune to get pregnant, trudno if she lives in a country like Poland ...

To pretend the current law in Poland is "good" for women is pure irresponsability and almost a crime towards women.

Hard to accept the idea that in EU in the 21st century, women have to use coat hangers or Domestos to abort...

No need to go to Aghanistan to find primitive people!
jon357 66 | 17,078
11 Apr 2016 #1,019
If she has the misfortune to get pregnant, trudno if she lives in a country like Poland

It's in the interests of PiS in many ways to let that awful situation continue; they thrive on human misery (happy and prosperous people do not vote for parties like that), and the more incest there is, the more inbreds there are to vote for them
InPolska 11 | 1,821
11 Apr 2016 #1,020
@Jon: could be but in the meantime they behave like barbarians. A woman who wants/needs to abort will abort anyway (illegal abortions are estimated at 80,000-100,000 per year in Poland). How can we keep the current situation when so many women have to introduce coat hangers, Domestos, knitting needles or whatever they have within their reach into their bodies? How can a civilized society accept this? This beats me! I think that although only a small minority of women are now fighting, the momentum will grow and they won't give up.

and yes, only idiots believe that it is easy to report rape or incest ...

It is also high time that sex education becomes a subject in Polish schools. Sex education and also the use of contraception (taking temperature is the no.1 "contraception" means in Poland (like in the West till the 1950's). Sex education + use of contraception should limit unwanted pregnancies to begin with. In western (goodless ;)) societies with sex education and easily (often free of charge or for a couple of coins) contraception, most women do NOT abort, contrary to what some bigots want us to believe ;)...

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