New "Polish memorial" in Berlin

Merkel will be out by the end of this year, no use to concentrate on her on as a Feindbild anymore...


Right! And were can you do that better than from the INSIDE??? :)

But why do you think a trade agreement without the EU would be more favourable for Poland?

Don't you think there will always be a danger of an economical/trading alliance of a few big players being build...with Poland and most other middle and smaller players being forced to look on?

Because it would be based on the rules of the free market and not on bureaucratic regulations that favor the established EU members who formed the whole EU legislation to suit their interests.

And you think an unregulated free market where economical and financial clout alone decides the prices and rules would be more favourable for Poland?

It seems to work for Germany.

Ok you have said that quite a few times. Could you elaborate on that. Add if you can few details of practicable moves that Poland can execute to secure its interest from within the EU.

I don't see it happening in the current circumstances with a way the major players are positioned in the EU. In fact all structure and top brass of the EU are not geared to pay any heed to Eastern European members or any members bar Germany and France.

IF you know better here your chance to shine.

I think it will always work for Germany....I really think that Germany would survive without the EU, the question is about Poland!

I told you that before too.....it all comes down to smart diplomacy. You NEED to build alliances, rub each others back...make compromises, help others to gain their advantages so that they help you with yours. It's a long time game of "one hand washes the other"...under the radar....establish yourself as a useful player, a worthy ally!

Something which Poland traditionally seems to have problems with! More often than not finding itself caught between all stools, counting on far away not-real-allies instead of working closely with it's neighbours...pouting alone in some self made proud corner...percieved more than the annoying cog in the wheel than the helpful ally.

Besides the enmity with Germany, how many friends does Poland have in Europe it could truly count on...(besides Hungary that is, which is quite as isolated in the EU as Trump is in the US) ?

There lies your answer....it's not the EU which is making it hard on Poland!

I dare to say if Poland "doesn't make it" INSIDE the EU, it will have even less hope to be successful outside of it. With even less leverage to steer things into it's favour....outside Poland will never have the same vote count as it has right now in the EU, at the same table with the biggies. It's just a dangerous illusion!

Ok back to the question of Poland.

Poland has NEVER had friends in Europe.

Poland has always been sold down the river firstly by the greedy imperialists, and more lately at Yalta in 1945.

I'm astounded by how poor your historical knowledge is. Have you already forgotten (or more likely, never knew) that the Polish government escaped to Romania along with over 100,000 soldiers during WW2? Have you forgotten that the Romanian government provided considerable assistance to the government then?

Any look at a history book would tell you that Poland was responsible for antagonising several neighbours that could have been valuable allies, particularly Czechoslovakia but not only.

Well...right now you are a member in a very powerful elite bloc...with a huge common market, with enormous economical and financial (and even military) clout. Your voice has the same weight as every other member. Poland has never been in a better, safer position!

It would be downright self destructive to throw that away again instead of making it work for you even better.....

This is of no consequence Many countries helped Polish refugees but none stood by to protect Poland's Sovereignty, will you please stop with your crap analogise

We'd all survive (and the UK now has to). The question is: at what cost?

They didn't exactly win friends or influence people. Even though they had one of the largest armies in Europe and one of the largest military budgets.

Only when it suits German interests. When "smart diplomacy" fails the brute force prevails.

Like in the case of negotiations with China when Germany made a deal with Beijing without asking other EU countries for their permission or even for their opinion in such an important matter.

politico.eu/article/germanys-drive-for-eu-china-deal-draws-criticism-from-other-eu-countries/

In other words: "we are nice and agreeable as long as you dance to our tune. And if you don't we will still have it our way whether you want it or not. So don't be unreasonable".

When Germans can do it....surely Poles can do it better! :)

That's now only half as powerful since Britain left who's next no leave ? because of political meddling in brussels.

Not every country is happy to lose its sovereignty to the political whims of Germany and France.

Before we build statues in each others countries we should put an end to political meddling before more friendships and alliances are lost

France, Germany, Italy and Spain would disagree with you there. As would a few other countries and most people that aren't deluded.


Hard to know what you actually mean by that, if anything...

The article you linked states the opposite. The other EU leaders were not asked once, but twice, but none of them tried to stop the deal for which the EU comission had a legal mandate.

Which is good, since the deal will be invaluable for the economic recovery after the pandemic.

Sure to same degree. What if diplomacy is not that smart? What if rules of the game are rigged? What if policies forced by EU like green energy etc. are disastrous for Poland?

I say that outside of the EU it would be easier and simpler to sort it all out!!!

Hey, I don't pit Poland against Germany. I would love to have a partner in Germany. You just need grow up a little to go along with that.

It is not Germany who behaves like a child in this relationship.

Simpler for sure! To declare someone an enemy is really not that complicated....
Diplomacy, negotiating instead.....all so much more difficult!


Well....maybe Poland is like GB, not being made to work in a union of so many different members, all with the same rights and votes....rather preferring to be the lone Top Dog leading their own union....as Iron said, that is much simpler (if not necessarily easier). And as I said before already, I think also Germany could survive outside of any Union...so could France...

But would Poland have the stuff to "go it alone" like GB? Successfully that is!


No, GB lost lots of influence....especially in Europe, but there is probably no "special relationship" with the US anymore either....and a new "Commonwealth" with India and the like? I seriously doubt that!

What if Scotland decides a new referendum for independence (and wins???)

But what's done it's done, and we all have to move on....those who believe the Brexit was an enormous error, a big shot in the own foot and those who are used to blame all failings on some "meddling from Brussels"! Those will need a new enemy pretty soon...as it was said, that is so much simpler!

But its not the same on one hand you have the EU socialists trying to push their left wing dogma on Poland, on the other hand Poland is not ready to turn socialist any time soon, here is the friction/conflict as Pawian would put it Libtard vs Rightard , that's where we are .

It's all a big laugh really, who cares , anyway with a new super strain we will be building memorials to the billions of dead, and what's left will be ruled by China.

Who would that be?


If we now decide to throw away our mighty bloc, all of us decide to "go it alone"...then for sure! Beijing and Moscow will be left the laughing winner!

Imagine a EU with strong guarded borders, with a tough immigration policy, with a clear stance to China....but we need Poland for that. An active, diplomatic, smart Poland which builds alliances with others who think the same!

Not a Poland sitting on the fences, throwing tantrums, believing other members to be enemies, wanting to weaken the EU from the inside!

What enmity. It would be much better for Poland to implement all those policies that are good for it interests. No need to have a big rich 'friend' meddling into its internal affairs'. Millions of EU regulation that doesn't make sense or drag down the country's economic development.

If Germany decides to became an enemy. There is nothing Poland can do about it.


Do you know how it would have to look like now? Poland - we want this and that! EU/Germany - NO! Poland - So we Polexit! EU/Germany - lol you will not, people in Poland don't support you! Poland - oh really just you wait.

Meaning Poland would have to gather all supported get everything ready for Polexit just to be able to get some minor concessions.
All that effort for a little gain and no guarantee of the future ones.
I just say F it! let just leave.
That what I mean by - easier and simpler.

The way the EU goes is going to the dogs economically. morally is already there. There is no great future for the EU, just wannabe be centralized around Germany ;empire' (pseudo-empire). That will be the worlds backwater, a fourth rate power upstaged by Turkey, China, India and what have you, with the USA decaling as and their global domination witling away, EU won't be able to cut it. Precisely because of the EU structures, policies and the way it works (not) is geared.

Stagnant, declining EU is not an attractive option any more. Thing is lots of people do not see the writing on the wall.
Some refuse to see it.

I don't care about some ideologically blinded people here. Even you BB you refuse to take a good look at all that mess. You basically saying Nah it'll be fine!

Really!

Well...if you really believe that....


Do you really think we all are naive idiots?

It's not all fine....and it won't be all fine if we don't make it so...but the EU is our all best chance to stay on top, to not fall down, to not become a pawn of other blocs in the new world order!

Why don't you take a good look at that possible future???


You nailed to problem, Iron! That annoying behaviour is NOT diplomatic and gets you nowhere, it led you only in this corner you are now in....

Germany has the same vote like anybody else....and since the Brexit most decisions don't need unanimity anymore....a majority would be enough....so Poland would need to look for allies who would support Poland with it's want and needs, it would have to advertise and negotiate its case and compromise with others if need be. If it can convince enough of other members to vote for it there is a great chance Poland would get what it wants, even if Germany would oppose it...all only one vote and all that!

But i's so much easier to blame all on big bad Germany if Poland doesn't get its way, right? So simple...

Are you surprised? Do you think that established French or German firms would be welcoming to competitors growing in Poland?
Hell even transportations firms not some leading corporation lobbed successfully to undercount Polish firms by legislative means.


lol? The way it is? Keep dreaming..

That's what I do....I dream of a strong EU, of a strong Europe....not being ruled in the near future by Asia, blame me!

If you fear a strong Germany more than anything else then I can't really say much more....

Nah BB that diplomacy in the nutshell, thing is Polish governments don't do it hence there is noting they have gained.


no really, they have much more to offer and they can bribe people, they corporations they work with hand in hand, they have Greece in their pocked, Italy won't say anything because is bankrupt, Spain is not much better, France and Dutch, are all good working with Germany, same Danes they have positioned themslefses well long ago before EEU changed,,,

You are basically saying - become a economical powerhouse like Germany and you can get a better deal.
That the Catch22 in the nutshell.
In order to become a powerhouse Poland would need to get rid of restrictions and regulations that block Poland's economy from becoming that, not to mention that already existing companies are strong competitors and won't be idle.

It is near impossible to became powerhouse being inside the EU as it is now. So gaining allies as you say to counter the German -French block is not feasible at all.


I say as it is. I don't blame anyone as you do.
You blame Poland for not walking the line. I'm only saying what can be easily spotted.
Now Germany pursue so called green energy policies which are detrimental to all German taxpayers. From the ecological point of view those are pointless or questionable.

their only result will be transfer wealth from a pocket of German citizens into a treasure trunk of some well placed conmen,.

Guess what they will tell you if your standers of leaving decline because of those green nutter policies or their incompetency ? Yes they will blame the EU or Poland, oh we have to pay for all those countries as they have issues,

If you are a sucker and buy into their lies .... that is problem right?

Bratwurst I am with you when it comes to a strong bloc of co-operating nations I have not lost my EU dream Whatever happens there will be no stronger proponent of strong Polish /German co-operation than I.

But when the EU (Currently with Germany in charge) Reward China with a very lucrative trade deal I do wonder if its just me that is mad in the head.

Which restrictions and regulations are you talking about?

What is stopping Poland from becoming a powerhouse???

Do you remember how the EU started out? Do you think Germany has always been a powerhouse??? We were in ruins...we just laid Europe to waste...we were the PARIAH of the world!

And do you really believe that French-German "bloc" is a given? Something natural?? Iron, we are arch enemies, have been for more many centuries...we are not real heart-friends and probably never will be, we distrust and don't like each other!

And still....we are much more powerful together and peacefully so....and it's ALL the reward for being diplomatic and smart negotiating !!!


I'm ashamed of that myself! I'm not happy with my current government, I think I made that already abundantly clear often enough in this forum. Neither what illegal immigration concerns nor that China-bootlicking...I'm also opposed to that pipeline by now.

I dream of a Brussels which would force Berlin to rethink some stuff...but for that I would need a stronger Poland...so there!