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New "Polish memorial" in Berlin


jon357 66 | 17,078
14 Jan 2021 #31
1953 Bierut's Act

Did you think I was talking about that?

a lot of room for a good lawyer to make a case.

Where? The international courts don't deal with WW2 reparations any more.

The PiS whining about this is intended entirely for the home market and is to say the least undignified.
Spike31 2 | 2,110
14 Jan 2021 #32
Did you think I was talking about that?

That's what the German side was referring to so far.

Where? The international courts don't deal with WW2 reparations any more.

War crimes do not expire.
jon357 66 | 17,078
14 Jan 2021 #33
War crimes

You're confusing issues, perhaps out of desperation.

There is no possibility of further general state-to-state settlements arising from WW2.

Kaczynski's sabre-rattling is intended for home consumption only, as you well know.
Spike31 2 | 2,110
14 Jan 2021 #34
You're confusing issues, perhaps out of desperation.

Provide some facts instead of this....whatever that is that you're trying to provide here.

- Show me where I'm confusing issues about war crimes

- Demonstrate to me which international acts prevent Poland from forming war compensation claim against Germany

Since German lawyers only came up with a questionable Bierut's act of 1953 I'm sure you can come up with something better.

I will help you a little with that:

#1 According to international law war crimes do not expire

#2 Germany is a legal successor of the IIIrd Reich [West Germany has asserted continuity with the German Reich]
jon357 66 | 17,078
14 Jan 2021 #35
will help you a little with that:

Unfortunately you're parroting more of the same. Some questions for you:

- Which court (if any...) has jurisdiction to rule on financial reparations for WW2.?

- In which year were all reparations finally settled?
Spike31 2 | 2,110
14 Jan 2021 #36
With all due respect, @jon357, if you could cool off your emotions and take a look at our post exchange you would find out that it isn't me who acts like a parrot.

Which court (if any...) has jurisdiction to rule on financial reparations for WW2.?

International Court of Justice in Hague. It's a part of the UN and its jurisdiction is based on the Charter of the United Nations

- In which year were all reparations finally settled?

That remains to be seen.
jon357 66 | 17,078
14 Jan 2021 #37
With all due respect, @jon357, if you could cool

There you go again. Remember, low grade rhetoric isn't a substitute for accuracy.

International Court of Justice in Hague.

Really?

That remains to be seen.

It doesn't, actually...
Tacitus 2 | 1,237
14 Jan 2021 #38
There's no possibility of that ever happening

Indeed. The case has been long legally settled. First 1953 and then conclusively 1990/91.

PiS knows that which is why they only use this to get domestic support.
jon357 66 | 17,078
14 Jan 2021 #39
First 1953

The London Agreement

and then conclusively 1990/91

The Two plus Four Agreement.

Jaro (and a deceased person who closely resembled him) have been rattling this particular sabre for nearly 20 years without any other effect except perpetuating the feeling of martyrdom and hard-done-by-ness that they politically depend on. Absolutists need enemies, and if they haven't got them, they have to try to manufacture a bogeyman.

If it had legs, they'd have actually done something more substantial than grandstand to the domestic media and issue diplomatic communiques that are wisely ignored.

Just hot air.
Tacitus 2 | 1,237
14 Jan 2021 #40
The London Agreement

I was thinking about the treaty between Poland and the GDR but that one is important too.
pawian 176 | 14,299
14 Jan 2021 #41
Just hot air.

Does it mean that Spike is beating a dead horse with those reperations?
Spike31 2 | 2,110
14 Jan 2021 #42
First 1953 and then conclusively 1990/91

We already spoke about those "settled cases". 1953 is disputable and 1990 doesn't apply to it at all.

PiS knows that which is why they only use this to get domestic support.

That's another benefit of it. It can be used for domestic politics but it can also be used in negotiations with Germany. Even unsatisfied war reparations have a lot of value.

A long time ambition of Germany is to become a full member of the United Nations Security Council, next to the US, UK, France, Russia, and China.

It would be difficult to achieve that when there's a case of unsatisfied WW II reparations for German Nazi crimes against humanity, and compensation for slave labour, hanging over the country and being constantly reminded of by a fellow NATO and the EU member.
delphiandomine 88 | 18,858
14 Jan 2021 #43
Germany is a legal successor of the IIIrd Reich [West Germany has asserted continuity with the German Reich]

Incorrect. This issue has been conclusively dealt with: The Federal Republic of Germany is not the legal successor to the German Reich. The Federal Republic was created by and gained sovereignty from the Allies, not from the Third Reich.

Of course, you're missing one key point: despite PiS harping on about it for years, they still haven't taken any case to any international court. Why? Because there's no case, and they know it. The Allies very clearly designed the post-war settlement to make sure that they couldn't be held responsible for boundary movements and other issues, which is why Germany had no choice but to agree to the Oder-Neisse line.

The FRG is only the legal successor of two states: Saarland and the German Democratic Republic.
Spike31 2 | 2,110
14 Jan 2021 #44
The Federal Republic of Germany is not the legal successor to the German Reich

You're wrong. This is not very surprising given your record here on PF's.

West Germany is a continuation of the 1871-1945 German Reich. And that was claimed by the German Democratic Republic itself.
It dates back to the cold war when West Germany claimed to be the only rightful German state, as opposed to East Germany controlled by the Soviets.
delphiandomine 88 | 18,858
14 Jan 2021 #45
West Germany is a continuation of the 1871-1945 German Reich.

According to who? According to the Allies, it certainly wasn't. The German Reich simply ceased to exist after the Allies took over, and both West Germany and East Germany took their sovereignty from the Allied zones, not the German Reich.

It dates back to the cold war when West Germany claimed to be the only rightful German state

For political reasons. It was never accepted by the Allies, and West Germany never had full sovereignty.

Look, I understand the fantasy of Germany paying Poland billions upon billions, but there's a very good reason why PiS refused to actually publish any legal analyses or take any case to an international court. It's because the matter is clear - the Allies never accepted anything other than the Federal Republic of Germany being a new state.
GefreiterKania 3 | 53
14 Jan 2021 #46
Mark my words: PiS will never officially demand war reparations from Germany. They know better than that. It's simply a tool for drumming up some extra domestic support from the most primitive-minded "patriots".

Undermining Polish-German relations, which after 1989 have been surprisingly good - mostly because of the constant and unwavering good will of consecutive German governments towards our country (political support for our NATO and EU membership, countless economic support/advice programs etc.) - is one of the main aims of Russian politics. Putin wants nothing more than Poland and Germany at each other's throats. No wonder then that the party mentioning the reparations most often is not PiS but конфедерация.

Also, one would have to be blind not to notice PiS's fascination with German ordoliberalism and their attempt to introduce their own version of soziale Marktwirtschaft. They admire and imitate Germany but are reluctant to admit that for domestic political reasons. Central Europe (which means DACH-Länder and V4), with possible addition of Benelux, are the future core of the EU (not the whimsical and unreliable French or the corrupt South), and Kaczyński knows this very well.

Pigs will fly before PiS officially demands any reparations from Germany.
delphiandomine 88 | 18,858
14 Jan 2021 #47
Putin wants nothing more than Poland and Germany at each other's throats.

It's very much in Putin's interest. The Weimar Triangle was his worst nightmare - a powerful alliance between three large Central European countries with common interests as large European countries.

the future core of the EU

Agreed. The Nordic and Baltic nations will be loyal, but the Nordics are a bit too isolationist and the Baltics are too far away.
Tacitus 2 | 1,237
14 Jan 2021 #48
1953 is disputable and 1990 doesn't apply to it at all.

1953 is not legally disputable. It does not matter that Poland was not a democracy at this time, treaties and declarations between dictatorships are just as legally binding. It is called international law, not law between democracies.

And of course the 2+4 treaty and the border treaty and the good neighbourhood treaty all apply since they designed to solve all outstanding issues from WWII, with the 2+4 treaty serving as a peace treaty. The only reason why the latter two were even necessary was because the signatory powers that a reunited Germany needed to reassure Polish fears and give a further guarantee on the border. This would also have been the final opportunity for Warsaw to raise the issue of reparations. Since they didn't, it was considered a closed case and thus the 2+4 treaty concluded it.

As I have pointed out a few times before, Poland's insistence on the border guarantee actually closed all options for them to later raise the issue of reparations again. Because the 2+4 treaty has one possible weakness. It only included the 4 victorious powers, not the other countries that suffered from the Nazis. Thus the other countries could technically argue that they were not sufficiently consulted and their interests not properly respected. A weak objection, but one that could possibly be made. However Poland could not do the same, since Polish objections and wishes were indeed listened to, to the satisfaction of Warsaw which Berlin could easily prove with records and the treaties.

To summarize, the case of reparations has been legally settlef and there is no way Warsaw could legally challenge it. Hence they don't use the legal way, but use it as a moral argument.

A long time ambition of Germany

Let us be real here, that is a totally unrealistic and even somewhat anachronistic goal. Even now it is already somewhat ridiculous, that countries like the UK and France sit on this table, despite only habing a fraction of e.g. China's or the USA's population. Given the predictions in terms of economic and population growth, this disparity will only become larger with time. No doubt India will one day become a member, probably at the expense of the UK. And the French seat might hopefully become a seat for the EU, once we have a truly common security and foreign policy.

being constantly reminded

The current PiS is most likely the last one to raise this issue, simply because time is not on their side. There are still people alive from WWII, and Poland has only been part of the EU for less than a generation, not enough time to profoundly change the outlook of all its' people. This will change however inevitably. PiS will not gove up on this issue (not pressing it either of course) since it would mean losing face as long as they are in government. Once they are voted out - whenever this will happen - the new, probably PO-led government won't raise issue again, and neither will a successor government led by PiS under a new party leadership. Because by then it will have become a truly ridiculous endeavour.
Ironside 50 | 10,940
14 Jan 2021 #49
1953 is not legally disputable.

Indeed. According to the law of the time it wasn't legally biding. Even if we overlook the fact it was just a Soviet colony and that Kremlin asked that dude to write that agreement.

Why would you question a lawful procedures? Would that be because it would work in your favor? OH NO! EU commission should be send out on you!
Tacitus 2 | 1,237
14 Jan 2021 #50
was just a Soviet colony and that Kremlin asked that dude to write that agreement.

Like I said, that doesn't matter as long as the government in question was the internationally recognized government.
Ironside 50 | 10,940
14 Jan 2021 #51
that doesn't matter

Is not my argument. My argument is simple according to the law at the time there were certain procedures to be fulfilled to make it legal and binding.

They did not followed the letter of the law at all, so the paper you are talking about is from the point of the law - void.

Always has been void. In the 60' PRL gov let west Germany gov know about it.
Your gov insist on legality of this paper because it is in your interest and that is the only reason. Ah another way you can get away with it. So far...
Tacitus 2 | 1,237
14 Jan 2021 #52
certain procedures to be fulfilled to make it legal and binding.

Such as?

In the 60' PRL gov let west Germany gov know about it

I'd like a source on that.
OP Bratwurst Boy 9 | 10,632
14 Jan 2021 #53
I think we can safely say we will see a polish memorial in Berlin first before any extra reparation is coming.

Actually, one could see the ongoing payments from Brussels as a kind of reparation, especially as alot of that comes out of german money bags. And that has been ongoing for many years now...it's safe and regular....it must be some billions by now...Why don't you see it that way Spike?
dolnoslask 6 | 3,541
14 Jan 2021 #54
I think just a joint remembrance service for the dead Polish and German people / soldiers is enough.

I would rather build monuments to mark successful German/Polish relations and enterprise.
pawian 176 | 14,299
14 Jan 2021 #55
Starting from the amazingly good relations between the first Polish King Bolesław the Brave and German Emperor Otto.
pawian 176 | 14,299
14 Jan 2021 #56
Undermining Polish-German relations, is one of the main aims of Russian politics.

Yes. In the past, Russians and Germans cooperated the best when they were destroying Poland as an independent state.
Today, rightists and nationalists, blindly or intentionally, want to lead to a similar situation - they are slowly pushing us into Kremlin`s jaws.
jon357 66 | 17,078
14 Jan 2021 #57
Does it mean that Spike is beating a dead horse

He's flogging a dead horse (and beating a horse in the Polish sense), and advocating for PiS.

PiS will never officially demand war reparations from Germany. They know better than that. It's simply a tool for drumming up some extra domestic support

Exactly this.
Spike31 2 | 2,110
15 Jan 2021 #58
Mark my words: PiS will never officially demand war reparations from Germany.

I'm of the same opinion since now they are more focused on not losing political power in Poland.

But they did bring the subject to public opinion and it resonated with many. Right now it is a tool of hitting back Germany whenever they are trying to discipline Poland with "the rule of law". But in the future with the right government, this subject can be pushed further.

First of all this subject of reparations needs to be normalized. Not like it is depicted by some media as an outragious claim against our dear Western friends but as a natural and internationally approved compensation for war damages.

Germans are - to a certain degree - pragmatic. If they will have no other option to close this inconvenient subject they would pay. And only agreeing on the right price would be an issue.

Undermining Polish-German relations

Those relations were far more beneficial for Germany than for Poland.

Damaging our "friendly relations" - which are based on economical control of Germany over Central Europe and making it a source of components and a labor force for the German industrial sector - doesn't really concern me. To paraphrase the old commie saying: "Poland has nothing to lose but its chains"

Me and my dog are also in very friendly relations: when I say "sit" he sits. When I ask him to roll over he rolls over.
jon357 66 | 17,078
15 Jan 2021 #59
First of all this subject of reparations needs to be normalised.

It was normalised long ago.

PiS do not have a valid claim.
pawian 176 | 14,299
15 Jan 2021 #60
If they will have no other option to close this inconvenient subject they would pay.

No, they won`t. Or if they do, that will be a few million euros.

What you and your Konfa buddies are primarily aiming at is making German Polish relations possibly as bad as during the Cold War. You hate Germany and the EU and dream about Poland in strong alliance with the Kremlin. That is possible only when you manage to push Poland out of Europe.

You shall never fulfill those sick dreams coz there are too many decent Poles who will contain you.


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