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New "Polish memorial" in Berlin


Bratwurst Boy 9 | 10,630
30 Oct 2020 #1
The Bundestag voted today (October 30th, 2020) with a large majority that Berlin should have its own place to remember the Polish victims of National Socialism. All political groups with the exception of the AfD voted for the project.

mdr.de/nachrichten/osteuropa/polen-denkmal-in-berlin-100.html

A bit late but at least....

But the best part is that this will not be another general memorial for ALL victims at once (that had been the other option on the table) but a memorial especially for the Poles and their suffering under the German occupation!
jon357 66 | 16,965
30 Oct 2020 #2
A positive step. Where will the memorial be?
OP Bratwurst Boy 9 | 10,630
30 Oct 2020 #3
I guess before that will come a contest for the best concept....I read that the "Askanische Platz" in Kreuzberg is in the talks.

deutschlandfunkkultur.de/denkmal-projekt-in-berlin-erinnern-an-polnische-opfer-der.2165.de.html?dram:article_id=457389

But till now it had been only talks and wishes, only from now on the planning and conception and discussion about how and where can truly begin....I could imagine that Poland would want to butt in with the plans, maybe veteran and survivor unions will want to get heard too...
Ziemowit 13 | 4,269
30 Oct 2020 #4
All political groups with the exception of the AfD voted for the project

A very positive gesture. Why has the AfD exempted itself from voting 'yes'? [Maybe our friend Weimarer would have known]
OP Bratwurst Boy 9 | 10,630
30 Oct 2020 #5
Honestly? I have no idea....I'm searching the net but there is nothing....even the AfD twitter account who comments usually continuously everything is totally ignoring this...hmm...

I only know that 2019 there was a memorial spat between the AfD and Poland as an AfD politician financed a memorial stone for German soldiers and Freikorps members fallen in WWI and WWII in Upper Silesia (Bytom/Beuthen), which the polish gov then removed quickly....

spiegel.de/politik/deutschland/von-afd-parlamentarier-mitfinanziert-polen-entfernt-gedenkstein-fuer-freikorps-a-1298279.html

Maybe an act of a tit for a tat? *shrugs*
cms neuf 1 | 1,852
30 Oct 2020 #6
That is very good news - there are a few memorials to Polish troops who fought alongside the Soviets in Berlin, Seelow, Sandau. But this one for civilian victims is much needed
OP Bratwurst Boy 9 | 10,630
30 Oct 2020 #7
Yeah...one of the better decision by the Bundestag! :)
Mr Grunwald 29 | 2,014
30 Oct 2020 #8
I am actually quite impressed, even surprised that the AFD didn't vote against it but, abstained.

This is a really good step forward to mend the relationship between Poles and Germans, as almost all of the Bundestag were for it

Reminds me almost of the Hungarian-Polish friendship decision
OP Bratwurst Boy 9 | 10,630
30 Oct 2020 #9
Nothing beats Brandt's "Kniefall" though....especially as back then capitalist West Germany and communist Poland had been officially enemies once again, and all was still fresh with most survivors still around!
Mr Grunwald 29 | 2,014
30 Oct 2020 #10
@Bratwurst Boy
Actually this beats Brandt's "Kniefall" that would remind of the Teutonic oath which was broken.

This act from the Bundestag is a far stronger message and might be far more convincing
OP Bratwurst Boy 9 | 10,630
30 Oct 2020 #11
Well....IMHO that photo in Warsaw has become already a political icon, as in "Bilder sagen mehr als Worte!" :)
jon357 66 | 16,965
30 Oct 2020 #12
MHO that photo in Warsaw

That could be a good conceptual base for the memorial.
OP Bratwurst Boy 9 | 10,630
30 Oct 2020 #13
Na ja...that's rather german-centric, don't you think? Nothing directly about the polish victims...
Ironside 50 | 10,935
31 Oct 2020 #14
place to remember the Polish victims of National Socialism.

Well, if done right could be something, In Poland they have lost of that stuff about Jews, not that many about Polish victims.

After all Poland lost about 16% people during the war and I'm talking about dead.
Biggest in a proportion to the population.

the AfD

Yeah figures they will have their stance over Polish issues. I bet they won't F with Jewish issues. lol!
Torq
31 Oct 2020 #15
Great news!

There are two options for PiS now:

1. Somehow twist it to show it as an example of German arrogance again (the monument will be too small, not exactly in the city centre etc. etc.)

2. Present it as the effect of their efficient pressure on the German government, to which ze Germans obviously succumbed (as opposed to the times when PO was in power).

1 or 2, I tells ya.
mafketis 24 | 9,357
31 Oct 2020 #16
wo options for PiS now:
1. Somehow twist it to show it as an example of German arrogance

PiS doesn't want (or think it needs) allies, especially German allies so they'll be as unpleasant and aggressive about it as possible (possibly complaining that no Polish people were asked about the design or getting huffy that it's not a statue of Lech Kaczyński...
OP Bratwurst Boy 9 | 10,630
31 Oct 2020 #17
Great news!

Heh:) I hoped THAT would lure you out.... :):):)

I read that decision is a consequence of a discussion holocaust survivor and foreign minister Władysław Bartoszewski once started....
OP Bratwurst Boy 9 | 10,630
31 Oct 2020 #18
But this here is the official appeal from the german Poland institute from 2017:

deutsches-polen-institut.de/politik/polendenkmal/

deutsches-polen-institut.de/assets/downloads/Polendenkmal/Aufruf-Polendenkmal.pdf

And this is the list of the signees:
(Alot of high ranking politicians have been part of this)

deutsches-polen-institut.de/assets/Uploads/Unterzeichner-Polendenkmal18.pdf

All in german though...is there some stuff in polish???
Spike31 2 | 2,099
31 Oct 2020 #19
Better late than never.

The next step should be proclaiming Poles an officially recognized minority in Germany like they were before WWII. Let's revert that nazi law which banished it.

dw.com/en/row-over-status-of-poles-in-germany-sours-relations/a-15066030
mafketis 24 | 9,357
31 Oct 2020 #21
The Bundestag voted today (October 30th, 2020)

And the very next day....

bz-berlin.de/berlin/erste-maschine-gelandet-ber-ist-endlich-eroeffnet

Coincidence? Ick denke nick!

Germany could have saved so much time and money....
OP Bratwurst Boy 9 | 10,630
31 Oct 2020 #22
Coincidence?

Heh:):):) There are no coincidences....so I've heard...it's all in the big plan! :)
Spike31 2 | 2,099
1 Nov 2020 #23
Coincidence?

With cost 2.5 times over the initial budget and opening date 9 years after the schedule you can tell that Ossies have built it :-)

And it's ready just in time for the biggest flight industry crisis in history. Vorsprung durch technik, in it? ;-)
pawian 176 | 14,299
9 Jan 2021 #24
Any news about the memorial? I heard there were some tensions about it.
Novichok - | 1,982
10 Jan 2021 #25
What is that memorial commemorating? German war crimes?
pawian 176 | 14,299
10 Jan 2021 #26
No, Polish victims of German war crimes. Why are you interested?
Spike31 2 | 2,099
14 Jan 2021 #27
The war ended over 75 years ago and only recently the German government made the decision to commemorate it. Call me a sceptic but I think it was dictated by the recent war reparation demands coming from Warsaw.

Obviously, it is much cheaper to erect the memorial than to pay hundreds of billions in compensations.
I'd rather receive substantial funds that can be used for the investment in infrastructure in Poland than to have a memorial in Berlin.
jon357 66 | 16,965
14 Jan 2021 #28
to pay hundreds of billions in compensations.

There's no possibility of that ever happening. Germany and Poland signed a treaty on the issue decades ago; hysterical politicians can skwawk as loudly as they like about the events of 75 years ago in order to try and distract from their present failures, however such 'calls' are intended to raise emotion solely in their home market rather than be taken seriously elsewhere.

only recently the German government made the decision to commemorate it.

That's fair enough; it's taken them long enough to rebuild (and reunite) their capital.
Novichok - | 1,982
14 Jan 2021 #29
but I think it was dictated by the recent war reparation demands coming from Warsaw.

If I were German I would hang myself and argue that the market value of the land Poland got should be deducted.
Spike31 2 | 2,099
14 Jan 2021 #30
There's no possibility of that ever happening. Germany and Poland signed a treaty on the issue decades ago

Not exactly. The most important paper on this subject: the 1953 Bierut's Act is not technically valid* and leaves a lot of room for a good lawyer to make a case.

And another important paper which is sometimes mentioned, that is 1990 Treaty of Good Neighbourship between Poland and Germany doesn't apply to this case since it only touches the subject of the borders, national minorities, and cultural cooperation between two countries.

gazetaprawna.pl/wiadomosci/artykuly/1118241,arkadiusz-mularczyk-nie-ma-uchwaly-ws-zrzeczenia-sie-praw-do-reparacji-od-niemiec.html


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