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A devestating verdict on the Polish church


ender 5 | 398
26 Dec 2010 #181
Of course not but can you tell me how can sobieski's and delphiandomine's posts are connected with Wisniwski letter? Wisniewski wrote the letter because he tries to improve CC in Poland. For Sobieski and delpiandomine it's a good pretext to call Poles anisemites.

A devestating verdict on the Polish church
sobieski Dec 19, 10, 20:12 / #1

delphiandomine Dec 19, 10, 20:20 / #2

Raids at the Vatican
sobieski Jun 25, 10, 16:21 / #1

delphiandomine Jun 25, 10, 16:24 / #2

Seanus you not stupid you can see some similarities
Seanus 15 | 19,706
26 Dec 2010 #182
I can't speak for sobieski but I may be able to give you some of where delph is coming from, ender. We are both from the same city and he may have developed a dislike for Catholicism from there. Why? Well, they have their own schools there and they tend to highlight their 'otherness' too much. Rather than just be educated according to the national curriculum and standard syllabi, they try to elevate themselves. I know that my mother personally blames overly devout Catholicism for OTT behaviour. Delph, being a man that tends to go beyond the superficial slant, may also be aware of some of the other behind-the-scenes dealings of the church.

For example, The Pope disingenuously talked of peace in the ME the other day when he will do nothing to bring it about. Hamas won't recognise Israel and Israel need them to do that as a prerequisite. End of story!! I'd really have more respect for the Pope were he to go and live in amongst Palestinians and see how they lose their houses through bulldozing and raids. Words float in the breeze but the RCC, if it is to mention the ME struggle at all, must intervene to put an end to suffering. What did the Palestinians have to do with WWII? They sent one leader as a sympathiser, wow. I could talk of peace too and does that make me as holy as them? What is the church actually doing about ANYTHING, ender? Please enlighten me. I'm trying to be open minded here but I need to see that they are more than just self-appointed figureheads.
Polonius3 1,000 | 12,446
26 Dec 2010 #183
All Church-bashers are sick people who deserve our pity and prayers.
Seanus 15 | 19,706
26 Dec 2010 #184
youtube.com/watch?v=mLZgNy46aTQ
it is THESE people that deserve attention and to be left to live in peace. Where are your words for them, Pol3?
ender 5 | 398
26 Dec 2010 #185
What is the church actually doing about ANYTHING, ender?

Honestly I don't care what CC is doing very long time ago I realize that CC is unable to teach me anything about morality. But there is a lot about philosophy. And you have to admit if there is proof of any wrong doing by priest in Europe he will be prosecuted. What really worries me is some media (in Poland it's Jewish controlled Gazeta Wyborcza) campaign to slam CC. Like in every group of people you are can find child molesters. You can find them in muslim, protestants, catholic, orthodox and jewish communities. I can give you some Polish examples from Polish news how easily you can find such materials about rabbis? It's not a point anyway. Point is Catholic Church is a problem of catholic not protestants nor jewish. I mean did you hear CC calling to kill all foreigners in Poland or to kill homosexuals or Jewish can you please at least tell me you heard any catholic priest calling to hate jewish or homosexuals? I don't understand british tendency to poke noses in others business you want woman priest good for you, you want quier priest even better. At the end it's anglican church who lost most of their warshippers so it is something good in CC doing.
delphiandomine 88 | 18,475
26 Dec 2010 #186
Wisniewski wrote the letter because he tries to improve CC in Poland.

Good on him. It's about time that someone high up had the balls to tell it how it is.

For Sobieski and delpiandomine it's a good pretext to call Poles anisemites.

What has hating Jews got to do with the problems of the Catholic Church in Poland? Actually, now that you say it - one of the big problems in Poland is the way that the Jew-haters are accepted as Catholics.

Rather than just be educated according to the national curriculum and standard syllabi, they try to elevate themselves.

You don't really see it in Aberdeen, but look at the Central Belt - the Catholic Church has such OTT views on schooling (they tried to have a joint campus for both Catholics and others, but the RCC demanded seperate playgrounds and toilets!). It's the same self-destructive behaviour that you can see in Poland today.

Delph, being a man that tends to go beyond the superficial slant, may also be aware of some of the other behind-the-scenes dealings of the church.

The problem in Poland is that the Communists gave up power, only for the Church to be elevated to the same position. End result = mass abuse of power that's only starting to come to light. Certainly, there's a huge untold story with collaborating priests - we know that a minority of clergy in other Communist countries were collaborating with the authorities. The greed of individual members of the RCC is coming clear as well - endless stories in Poland of the Church demanding huge payouts for land that was stolen. The money also vanishes into black holes, as well.

All Church-bashers are sick people who deserve our pity and prayers

No, Polonius. The people who need pity and prayers are the ones who are destroying the RCC from within. Are you really so narrow minded as not to see that the RCC is going down the exact same path in Poland as it did elsewhere? That same path ended in failure - shouldn't they learn from others mistakes?
Seanus 15 | 19,706
26 Dec 2010 #187
Well, there are concerted drives to bridge the Anglican and RCC, ender. This has been going on for some time and they are ironing out the creases at present. This is a future reality.
ender 5 | 398
26 Dec 2010 #188
there are concerted drives to bridge the Anglican and RCC

So, it's not my problem. It's a queen problem she is the head of anglican church. I mean I don't count baptized newborns.

The problem in Poland is that the Communists gave up power, only for the Church to be elevated to the same position. End result = mass abuse of power that's only starting to come to light.

It's a huge bollox Polish Church had more power under communist time then now.

but the RCC demanded seperate playgrounds and toilets

Did they catch you wanking? I would demand the same for muslims and africans at least I will be able use to use the toilet. For God sake what is wrong with you people when I had a problem with catholic priest I argued with him like proper fishmonger.
Seanus 15 | 19,706
26 Dec 2010 #189
Who is talking of problems, ender? Are you aware of how rapidly Islam is spreading? Don't you feel that Christian churches should look for commonalities and move closer?

Power to do what, ender? According to the Constitution, Poland is secular and the seat of power lies in the Sejm.
delphiandomine 88 | 18,475
26 Dec 2010 #190
It's a huge bollox Polish Church had more power under communist time then now.

Really? The Church had the power to demand hundreds of millions of zloty for their land - AND GET IT? I think not. And political power? What political power? The Church only existed because the Communists tolerated it as (to paraphrase) "an opiate of the masses".

Compare that to nowadays, where the Church holds massive influence over the country - although that influence is diminishing - again, due to the Church doing idiotic things. The recent IVF situation did nothing but harm the Church's credibility.
Lodz_The_Boat 32 | 1,535
26 Dec 2010 #191
Islam is spreading

Dont get me wrong but sometimes I feel you are very attracted to Islam.

In any way ... I dont think its something positive ... even in its moderate ways, its nothing too different from Catholicism.

I would prefer a community which is not too intense on religions.

I know Muslims who give up on being too intense and prefer less intense, moderate, or ever a secular non-religious way of a spirituality which respects all and opts for harmony with family. This is very effective specially when you are in a European atmosphere, living among Europeans ... with a European...

By the way, Muslims like to have children, and our birth rates in Poland and the rest of Europe (the native ones) are constantly declining. Well I am not saying anything without solid evidence ... but I am not going for the links or data expecting you know this already. Plus, the eastern guys are family oriented - or so it shows till now.
ender 5 | 398
26 Dec 2010 #192
Who is talking of problems, ender? Are you aware of how rapidly Islam is spreading? Don't you feel that Christian churches should look for commonalities and move closer?

Yeah whatever we got our muslims for couple centuries.

Power to do what, ender?

To teach moral rules obviously and they have big experience in it. Communists killed more people within less then 1 century then CC through out his 20 centuries history.
Seanus 15 | 19,706
26 Dec 2010 #193
Let's not sidetrack by delving into Islam, £ódź. I've never read the Haddith or Koran/Quran so....

Anyway, what is the remit of the church here? Why do they collect money when Jesus wasn't known to do so? Why do people not follow their teachings as soon as they leave the church?

The church was not strong during communistic times. They could have their distraction through it but the regime was designed to streamline how people lived and not to be subject to so many outside influences. Even English-language radio was seen as a potential step too far for some.

Ender, yes, there are Tatars. I'm not saying that the RCC sponsored killings like many commies did.
Lodz_The_Boat 32 | 1,535
26 Dec 2010 #194
Why do they collect money when Jesus wasn't known to do so?

Cuz its a business. There is nothing Jesus about it ... its all Catholic! Catholicism had risen out of materialistic Political ambitions of a King, who have been celebrated as a Hero. But there are better authors of history where you can find a good report. You know Gibbon and his likes dont you? ... Go though then and u'll know. If you investigate further you will start being able to measure things yourself. But a deep sense of unbiased attitude is needed (i.e. neither being in favor or against Catholicism), which is very difficult for some - because people are mostly dominated either by a negative or a positive image of something.

I've never read the Haddith or Koran/Quran so....

I've read. Those are magnificent Books. But just not upto today's time. There are alot of wrong information spread against them ... you need to read the book not a few phrases here and there. But its not for today, the laws or etc. Its not a bygone era.

there are Tatars

They are our good citizens, who have always been on our side naturally - Poles I like to call them.

English-language radio

I like English Language =) ... my English is good I think =)
ender 5 | 398
26 Dec 2010 #195
Why do they collect money when Jesus wasn't known to do so? Why do people not follow their teachings as soon as they leave the church?

There is no support from state. They need to pay their bills that's why. It's up to people and trust me people can make own priest to starve.
Lodz_The_Boat 32 | 1,535
26 Dec 2010 #196
priest

Jesus never liked priests ... read Matthews Chapter 20-25 ...
ender 5 | 398
26 Dec 2010 #197
but we Poles did many times some of them were bishops.

sorry :-) I saw what I wanted to see. :-)
Lodz_The_Boat 32 | 1,535
26 Dec 2010 #198
we Poles did many times

We are not flawless. But doesnt mean we never remove as much flaws as we can.

I saw what I wanted to see. :-)

What did you want to see?
ender 5 | 398
26 Dec 2010 #199
We are not flawless.

I messed liked with kiled ;-*
joepilsudski 26 | 1,389
27 Dec 2010 #200
I am always amused when Poles on the Forum attack the Church, which historically was the primary force in Polish society that stood in opposition to communism...Of course, many of these same Poles are subject to a virus that Cardinal Wojtyła talked about, the virus of consumerism...Pope John Paul II said that in the future the biggest enemy of the Church would not be communism, but consumerism/materialism that would overwhelm Western society.

This also means 'globalism' which in it's theoretical 'utopian' form means the elimination of nationalism, Christianity and the 'leveling' of society into an undifferentiated mass governed only by the rule of money and undifferentiated materialistic culture...This is basically what the EU is set up for...Some may call it communism under a different name or encased in a 'velvet glove'.

In the globalist world, the only form of nationalism permitted is Zionism...Any other nationalism is 'fascism'...This is evident in the revulsion of peoples in Europe to the actions of the Israeli state, and also in the refusal of EU governments to take any concrete steps to oppose this form of nationalism...It was all hatched in Europe.

The word 'fascism' is a favorite of these Zionists and their minions, but, specifically in reference to the Church in Poland, or Radio Maryja is any kind of 'fascism' or dictatorship advocated?...The answer is 'no'...But certain so-called 'liberal' elements regard any championing of traditional values. or of the historic importance of the Church itself, as 'fascism'.

The Roman Catholic Church has made mistakes; this cannot be denied...However, the greatest error of the Church in the present, IMHO, is the championing of a false liberalism or political correctness...The PC types can be found all over this Forum also...But anyone with a sense of history should understand that this type of 'liberalism' is a dead end...European civilization is built on a Christian foundation, and a Catholic foundation...The problem in the Church is not a 'fascistic' attitude on the part of certain priests, but a wishy washy weakness of faith and willingness to surrender to political correctness on the part of the Church's 'liberal' faction.

However, it does no good for the Church to air it's dirty laundry in public, and I would chastise both the liberal and conservative elements for not being able to work out their problems without public outcry...Discretion is the better part of valor...The Church has numerous enemies without subjecting itself to civil warfare.

The goal of the EU and it's associated bureaucratic satraps is the neutering of the Church...The goal of the Zionists is replacing Christianity with 'Holocaustianity'...They work hand in hand...Gazeta Wyborcza, also.
Olaf 6 | 956
27 Dec 2010 #201
If you can prove it - it’s science, not faith.

- Yes, facts or myths. Everyones personal choice...

Faith without credibility or validity is blind-faith/superstition

Very true.

That's what faith is all about: it should be blind by definition.

Some people prefer to keep their eys open.

They're all Semites.

Exactly. It's like Poles and Czechs also brothers.
yehudi 1 | 433
27 Dec 2010 #202
I'd really have more respect for the Pope were he to go and live in amongst Palestinians

He wouldn't find that very pleasant. The arab christian population is gradually leaving the palestinian controlled areas because they are bullied by the Muslims, especially in Hamas-controlled Gaza.
Lodz_The_Boat 32 | 1,535
27 Dec 2010 #203
The arab christian population is gradually leaving the palestinian controlled areas because they are bullied by the Muslims

The Christians there seem to be more in cooperation with the Muslims then the Jews.

Now dont call me an anti-semitic for that because I am not ... its just something that I gather.

Why dont you guyz live in peace? You are their neighbor ... cousins infact! ... You are Asian and so are they! ... Middle East is as much a part of Asia as Scandinavia would be for Europe ... why dont you two patch things up? ... Why no give them their territories and spit the eternal dispute off?
yehudi 1 | 433
27 Dec 2010 #204
The Christians there seem to be more in cooperation with the Muslims then the Jews.

Ethnically they are Arabs, so they try to be as "palestinian" as their muslim neighbors. But the palestinian national movement is increasingly dominated by the muslims. In the past they had a bigger role but they've been overpowered.

Now dont call me an anti-semitic for that because I am not

I'd love to call you anti semite if i thought you were, but what did you say that was supposed to offend me?

Why dont you guyz live in peace? You are their neighbor ... cousins infact!

Long story. Sure we're cousins, but there's a big quarrel over who gets the family estate.

Why no give them their territories and spit the eternal dispute off?

Giving them territory won't finish the dispute. As our outspoken foreign minister said, even if we give them Tel Aviv, they won't call an end to the dispute. They already control most of the west bank and all of Gaza. The dispute defines them as a nation. Without it, they'd just be arabs, no different than syrians or jordanians.
isthatu2 4 | 2,703
27 Dec 2010 #205
He wouldn't find that very pleasant. The arab christian population is gradually leaving the palestinian controlled areas because they are bullied by the Muslims, especially in Hamas-controlled Gaza.

Well,keep people locked up in a Ghetto,bomb them,starve them and imprison them and they are kinda obviously gonna fall out arnt they Yehudi,witness Kapos ,sonnder kommandos etc etc...
yehudi 1 | 433
27 Dec 2010 #206
Well,keep people locked up in a Ghetto,bomb them,starve them and imprison them

Stupid comment. The persecution of christians is common all over the Muslim world, not just in the palestinian areas. Did the iraqi muslims bomb that church out of solidarity with the palestinians?

blogs.news.sky.com/foreignmatters/Post:589c662c-561b-4078-80cd-939232efc60d

And for your "starving" palestinians, here's a list of restaurants in Ramallah they might want to try.

paltour.net/palestine-tourist-services/palestine-restaurants/restaurants-in-ramallah/187.php
isthatu2 4 | 2,703
27 Dec 2010 #207
Yes,of course,its a stupid comment,bound to be from someone in britain a hot bed of anti semitism after all....No wait,its only become that since you realised you'd wrung all the money you could out of us and didnt have a hold on us the way you have over other european countries,bit hard to soap story us ,a country with a PM in the 1900s who was jewish and many jews in high positions ,say,compared to er,other countries in europe isnt it......you do realise most british jews are embaressed by the State of Israel and its hideous frankly germanic expansionism dont you....
Ironside 50 | 10,810
27 Dec 2010 #208
Well,

well you three,you, delph and sobieski are really fell for the RCC!
You care so much, it must be love !
Torq
27 Dec 2010 #209
A devestating verdict on the Polish church

Catholic Church in Poland is doing very well, thank you.

Despite the anger of some POlitics from a certain "POlish" POlitical party, self-proclaimed
"moral authorities" and crooked priests, the majority of Poles still stands with the Church
and will stand with it through thick and thin.

Certain POwers are trying to destroy the Church and, with it, destroy the soul of Polish
nation. They openly opPOse Church, but they will fail, as many before them had failed.

POLONIA SEMPER FIDELIS!
OP sobieski 107 | 2,128
27 Dec 2010 #210
and crooked priests

You mean that Father Wiśniewski is crooked? Actually you are in good company, the Stasi did not like him one bit.
Perhaps you prefer the geothermal crooked ones ?


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