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A devestating verdict on the Polish church


Torq
27 Dec 2010 #211
You mean that Father Wiśniewski is crooked?

I'm only saying that some Dominicans, 'Domini canes' - the dogs of the Lord, have apparently
found themselves a different master to serve. Now some of them are the dogs of ruling
politicians, the dogs of money, looking for vain plaudit, cheap applause of modern world.
They shall get their reward in due time.

Stasi did not like him one bit

When was that? 30 years ago?

People are not carved in stone - they can change. Sinners can abandon their bad ways,
and good people can become crooked. Such is the crack in the nature of man, caused
by the originial sin. That's why we pray: Miserere mei Domine, quoniam infirmus sum...
OP sobieski 107 | 2,128
27 Dec 2010 #212
Now some of them are the dogs of ruling
politicians, the dogs of money

You mean for sure the geothermal crook who during the PIS rule was in charge of the PIS-ites?

Your idea of catholicism is a scary one by the way. It goes back to Torquemada and the "Auto Da fe".
It goes back to the time people with other opinions were burnt on the stake.
By the way, do you think anglicans, calvinists, lutherans...are also Christians on the same level of your brand of catholicism? Just curious.
Torq
27 Dec 2010 #213
You mean for sure the geothermal crook who during the PIS rule was in charge of the "government"?

You must be referring to that priest from Toruń... what's his name? Father Rydzyk?

I must dissapoint you, but internal brawls and quarrels in the modernist, post-conciliar
(Vaticanum Secundum) Church, do not interest me one bit.
From my perspective as a traditional Roman-Catholic, both priests - Wiśniewski and Rydzyk,
are in the same modernist league of post-concilliar confusion.

I wouldn't worry about it too much, though. Our church is 2000 years old. Przeżyjemy Rydzyka
i przeżyjemy Wiśniewskiego :)

Your idea of catholicism is a scary one by the way. It goes back to Torquemada and the
"Auto Da fe".

You seem to be a typical mass product of anti-Church, liberal propaganda.
I suggest you read "The Defence of Holy Inquisition" by Roman Konik...

The Defence of Holy Inquisition

poczytaj.pl/47371

...before you start talking nonsense about the great man TORQuemada and the Holy Inquisition.

do you think anglicans, calvinists, lutherans...are also Christians on the same level of your brand of catholicism?

Certainly not.
OP sobieski 107 | 2,128
27 Dec 2010 #214
And why do you think they are Christians of a lesser brand as yours?
Just curious...I mean my whole secondary and university education was Jesuit...I admired them a lot (afterwards) because they encouraged criticism and on the same time were on a superior intellectual level.

I do not think they are your favourite order?
Torq
28 Dec 2010 #215
And why do you think they are Christians of a lesser brand as yours?

It's not about "brands", lesser or not. It's about the truth. I believe that the fullness
of truth and God's revelation is present only in the Holy Roman Catholic Church.
They may well believe the same about their respective churches, but it doesn't change
my point of view.

Don't get me wrong. I have a lot of respect for certain aspects of Eastern Orthodoxy
and protestantism, but it doesn't change my belief in the uniqueness of the Catholic Church.

I do not think they are your favourite order?

Well, unfortunately they have changed a lot since Counter-Reformation (especially in recent
years, after Vaticanum Secundum.) Oh, well - people are not carved in stone, as I said
before, and it's the same about Catholic orders. I don't really have a "favourite" order, but
if I had to choose, I'd pick either Carthusians or Benedictines.
bimber94 7 | 254
28 Dec 2010 #216
Torq:
I believe that the fullness of truth and God's revelation is present only in the Holy Roman Catholic Church.

Nothing personal, Torq, but that does sound arrogant. Do you seriously think non-Catholics (7-10ths of the world's population) are destined to feed the flames of hell? This is 2010 not 1510.
Torq
28 Dec 2010 #217
Do you seriously think non-Catholics (7-10ths of the world's population) are destined to feed
the flames of hell?

Who is destined to feed the flames of hell, as you put it, is a part of knowledge possesed only
by God. That's why Roman Catholic Church has NEVER in any official document stated that
a certain person is in hell. So, I guess we better leave the decision as to the final destination
of particular people to God.

This is 2010 not 1510.

I don't think hell has changed significantly in the last 500 years, but that, as I said,
is beyond my (or anyone else's) exact knowledge.
Olaf 6 | 956
28 Dec 2010 #218
Who is destined to feed the flames of hell, as you put it, is a part of knowledge possesed only
by God.

Guys, seriously, hell? Hell is a notion used to scare and control people. Heaven is to give hope. These are main and best-selling products of Christian churches and other religions. I don't intend to convince you to anything, but imagine for a minute, what if there is no hell, and no heaven, no purgatory either (what the heck is that invention - beats me), and after death you are dead and put to ground and decompose (or cremated and put on a mantelpiece in a coffee can). You are gone. End of story, and no problems! Eternal life? Don't bul**it me, I wouldn't want to live forever - would you? Really? That would be so boring and repeatable and... scary. Hopeless. How does this view present to you, Torq, Bimber and Sobieski? I'd like to know [I am not teasing anyone here].
Babinich 1 | 455
28 Dec 2010 #219
I wouldn't want to live forever - would you?

It's about eternal life outside of one's mortal coil.
Olaf 6 | 956
28 Dec 2010 #220
I know. But still...
Bratwurst Boy 9 | 10,385
28 Dec 2010 #221
It's about eternal life outside of one's mortal coil.

Energy can't get lost or be destroyed, a scientific proven fact, so the life energy survives too, it doesn't need the aged, sick, died body...and no man made religion has any influence on that in any way.
Torq
28 Dec 2010 #222
Guys, seriously, hell? [...] Eternal life? Don't bul**it me [...] boring and repeatable [...] Hopeless.

"Seriously"? "Don't bull**it me"? "Boring and hopeless"?

Wow! You surely have a strange attitude for someone who would just "like to know"
and who is "not teasing anyone here." :)

I've had countless discussions with people like you, Olaf (I don't mean anything derogatory,
by the way - just a certain mental attitude) on this and other fora and found it ultimately
pointless.

Oh, well... I have too much free time on my hands today, anyway :)

imagine for a minute, what if there is no hell, and no heaven

Imagine there's no Heaven
It's easy if you try
No hell below us
Above us only sky
...
Imagine aaaaaall the peeeeeeople, liiiiiiiiving foooooooor toda-a-a-a-y... aa... aaa

:)

I thought the hippies were gone long time ago, or too busy with their international bank
managers' jobs to post on Internet fora, and here - such a nice surprise. There is one on PF! ;)

and after death you are dead and put to ground and decompose [...] You are gone.
End of story, and no problems!

No judgement? No punishment for your sins? You just die and that's it? Your conscience
is gone and you don't even know that you're dead? No standing in front of the living God
to face His judgement on you?

Wow! That would be cool! We wouldn't have to worry about all those rules and stuff! :)
Well, that surely would be nice, Olaf. That surely would be nice. I'm afraid it doesn't
work that way though :) I mean, I BELIEVE it doesn't work that way (and you are,
of course, free to believe otherwise.) All in all, in the end we will all find out who was right.

Peace :)
Olaf 6 | 956
28 Dec 2010 #223
You surely have a strange attitude for someone who would just "like to know"

- Ok, apologies for that, I didn't mean to sound like that.

Imagine aaaaaall the peeeeeeople, liiiiiiiiving foooooooor toda-a-a-a-y... aa... aaa

- Now look what you've done! The song is now in my head for the rest of the day, you bad, bad man. And I don't even like this one. Arrrghhhh....

gone long time ago, or too busy

- Yup, funny as it may seem, I am far from those hippie views. But it is true I am having too much time now:) but what you expect at this time of year - I'm not selling fireworks:D

No judgement? No punishment for your sins? You just die and that's it? Your conscience
is gone and you don't even know that you're dead? No standing in front of the living God
to face His judgement on you?

- Pretty much. It is biology, that's all. But the rules you mentioned are good and they keep life in order. That's why it's good to follow them. And ethics is not to get the prize in afterlife (or avoid punishment) but because it is just and humane. It does not cost and it is not to get some profits later.

I mean, I BELIEVE it doesn't work that way

- I must say you seem one of the few people who can write about religion logically and interrestingly. I will not be teasing you anymore;)

Peace :)

Who's the hippie now? :D

Imagine Yellow Submarine with Olaf on board :D

- Better not! The vessel would sink with me on board.
Torq
28 Dec 2010 #224
And ethics is not to get the prize in afterlife (or avoid punishment) but because it is just
and humane. It does not cost and it is not to get some profits later.

Of course, you're right. When you really get into Christianity, then you see that there's much
more than just ethics or morality in it, but I will leave it to C.S. Lewis to convince you...

A truly brilliant book. Try to read it if you get the chance. You may get some answers
to your questions from it, without some arsehole on Internet forum calling you a hippie ;)

I will not be teasing you anymore;)

Good :)
OP sobieski 107 | 2,128
28 Dec 2010 #225
How does this view present to you, Torq, Bimber and Sobieski? I'd like to know [I am not teasing anyone here].

I would be most happy not to be included in the Torquemada fanclub :)
Furthermore I was educated and brought up with the principle that your belief is your own business.
For me religion is more a sociological-cultural background. Western Civilization is built on Christian-Judaic foundations (Not only Christian as somebody here mentioned) and ultimately on the Greek and Roman cultural heritage.

If you think that Torquemada and the Inquisition were the right way to go, how does this make you different from let us say Al-Quaeda? They also divide the world in infidels and believers, whereas the infidels have to ged rid off.
Torq
28 Dec 2010 #226
I would be most happy not to be included in the Torquemada fanclub :)

I wouldn't accept you as a member anyway. *pouts*

If you think that Torquemada and the Inquisition [...]

Did you read that book by Roman Konik? If your Polish is good enough, I can send you a copy
(PM me your address and I'll send it tomorrow on my way to town.)
Olaf 6 | 956
28 Dec 2010 #227
I would be most happy not to be included

I can stop writing your nicks in one line, for a very competetive price!

I was educated and brought up with the principle that your belief is your own business.

Ok, I am also for it. But here, under this thread we discuss different views right? No one forcing us at any point.

If you think that Torquemada and the Inquisition were the right way to go, how does this make you different from let us say Al-Quaeda? They also divide the world in infidels and believers, whereas the infidels have to ged rid off.

Who are you asking actually? Inquisition the right way to go? Who thinks that? Not me certainly. And the divisions you mentioned - each side is creating them. If you choose a religion to follow you start dividing (most of cases).

When you really get into Christianity

- I already did. I was raised in it. Also later I read much more on religions and Christianity (I guess much more than average Catholic). Thanks for the book, I might read soon it actually.
isthatu2 4 | 2,703
28 Dec 2010 #228
No judgement? No punishment for your sins? You just die and that's it?

Yep, seen much death mate?
Torq,seriously re the inquisition you are the David Irving of this subject,despite the mass of evidence against you you still cry out conspiricy and assure everyone of your supiriority.....very sad,very irelgious.

And for your "starving" palestinians, here's a list of restaurants in Ramallah they might want to try.

HHmm, nice try yehudi,but I take it as read that you know all about the fancy restaurants within the Warsaw Ghetto and are just choosing to forget rather conveniently that the rich and connected can always find a way where as the vast majority have a daily struggle.
George8600 10 | 637
28 Dec 2010 #229
You are gone. End of story, and no problems! Eternal life? Don't bul**it me, I wouldn't want to live forever - would you? Really? That would be so boring and repeatable and... scary.

Well that scares some people as well. But as Torq said, it's about living eternally outside of ones mortal coil and where matters such as time, simply don't exist. Goes back to the Einstein-ian question of what really makes up time, and if there truly is a "forever".

Pretty much. It is biology, that's all. But the rules you mentioned are good and they keep life in order. That's why it's good to follow them. And ethics is not to get the prize in afterlife (or avoid punishment) but because it is just and humane. It does not cost and it is not to get some profits later.

Since when does biology prove all there is to know and beyond? Not even quantum physics can do that. Biology concentrates on what it partially knows of the mortal life here on earth.
Polonius3 1,000 | 12,446
28 Dec 2010 #230
Nietzsche is dead. God lives!
OP sobieski 107 | 2,128
28 Dec 2010 #231
The Polish geothermal crossist Smolenkist one, or the universal human one?
isthatu2 4 | 2,703
28 Dec 2010 #233
Strongly denied by Satan.
Olaf 6 | 956
28 Dec 2010 #234
Well that scares some people as well. But as Torq said, it's about living eternally outside of ones mortal coil and where matters such as time, simply don't exist. Goes back to the Einstein-ian question of what really makes up time, and if there truly is a "forever".

Babinich said that actually.

it's about living eternally outside of ones mortal coil and where matters such as time, simply don't exist.

- So... what is the point for ths anyway? Is this the ultimate goal for some? It seems rather pointless.

"forever".

- yep, very scary notion;)

Since when does biology prove all there is to know and beyond? Not even quantum physics can do that. Biology concentrates on what it partially knows of the mortal life here on earth.

So far biology & science, could prove all it found/discovered/invented - and it's been progressing like that since it started, while religion did not manage to prove a thing of what it claims. Howwever, biology, evolution and generally science did prove religion to say bollocks from time to time.

In a simple match: point to science ;)
I don't want to look at it as a simple match though, but you have to admit that science, i.e. what you know as facts, is something that you can rely on whereas the rest - ...

God lives!

Satan

yeah riiiight...

Batman, Superman, Snowwhite, Bambi and Hercules and Xena as well!
All in our heads.
Remember this one thing: when you talk to god, it is a prayer, but when go talks to you - you are insane. Why is that?
Polonius3 1,000 | 12,446
29 Dec 2010 #235
Let's not forget the famous wager of French philosopher and mathematician Blaise Pascal who raised the issue of gains and losses. No-one can prove God exists but if one lives accordingly he stands to gain eternal life. If there is no God and one lives as of there was one, all one has to lose is this miserable valley of tears.
bimber94 7 | 254
29 Dec 2010 #236
@Olaf:
I was being cynical when I mentioned hell. I accept your point of view; it's all carrot and stick.
PS - After checking, I discovered there's someone else called Bimber (I'm bimber94).
Polonius3 1,000 | 12,446
29 Dec 2010 #237
When a majority fo people follow or try to follow the essence of Christiniaty -- the 10 Commandments and 8 Beatitudes -- when people realise that 'you're not alone in this world, your brotherr is here too', then life in this valley of tears can be roughly tolerable. But when these are rejected in favour of total egoisation -- do your own thing and f*ck with the next guy, anything goes, grab as much as you can for yourself here and now and run, then we have the kind of hell on earth you can see all about. And if you can't see it, then you really are in poor shape.
yehudi 1 | 433
30 Dec 2010 #238
HHmm, nice try yehudi,but I take it as read that you know all about the fancy restaurants within the Warsaw Ghetto and are just choosing to forget rather conveniently that the rich and connected can always find a way where as the vast majority have a daily struggle.

In other words, you're saying that we only let them have restaurants while we set up the trains to ship them off to extermination camps? That's the conclusion your ridiculous analogy leads to. No. They are simply not starving. There is no shortage of goods in the West Bank. Their economy has grown about 7% lately. In Gaza the situation is not good, but still there is plenty of food to eat. If not for Hamas, they'd be in the same situation as the west bank. For more information about the economic situation in the palestinian territories, try this link:

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Economy_of_the_Palestinian_territories
Olaf 6 | 956
30 Dec 2010 #239
And you know who falls for the trick withcarrot on the stick? An ass! :D

I will keep that in mind! BTW, I once made bimber alkohol and it was haluva good:)

When a majority fo people follow or try to follow the essence of Christiniaty -- the 10 Commandments and 8 Beatitudes

The rules in commandaments etc. are just adopted from much older religions and/or social and ethical rules and schools. Religion may help some people (a lot of them actually) to keep within "the good" boundaries, but it is not invented by religion. Also, I think we all can admit that religion does not prevent any better from wrongdoing.
Seanus 15 | 19,706
30 Dec 2010 #240
bbc.co.uk/news/world-12092471

a further scathing indictment against the church. Now, they are officially tackling the problem, and that's great! However, criticism against them has been mounting for quite a long time now and they need this transparency drive to restore some shreds of credibility.


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