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A devestating verdict on the Polish church


trener zolwia 1 | 940
22 Dec 2010 #91
What is much more devastating on the Polish church is the culture of spiritual emptiness that came along the influences of the West.

Second.

Additionally, I think it is apparent that the angriest folks are also the ones who are most anti-believing. Just take a look around PF and see the ugly that the church-haters spout...
delphiandomine 88 | 18,475
22 Dec 2010 #92
Nothing new really, Catholic church in Poland has been going backward for some time already. It's nice to see actual members of the church snapping and speaking out the truth. Despite that, nothing is really going to change about how church works, which can be seen by a recent interview with Archbishop Michalik in "of course" xenophobic "Nasz Dziennik" criticising the mentioned "verdict".

The problem is that by the time they realise that they need to change, it'll be too late and the Church will be in a position similar to their position in Italy or Spain. They're certainly going to regret being involved so heavily with politics in Poland - I think all but the most deluded people can see what harm the crisis over the cross did to the Church.

As for now I hope that constitutional tribunal can somehow affect the resolutions of the "financial/wealth commision" and allow retaking of some of the lands seized by the church.

I can't see it happening, sadly. But I suspect that the days of cashing in at the State's expense are over - almost every major action of theirs to reclaim assets are being met with outright hostility.

Church itself as an institution. Don't treat believers like poor sheeps who follow priests' calling in every case. People have brains. They think. They have always a choice. Being a part of a Christian society is demanding. For many being a part of it is just too difficult. They can't stand Church's rules. Because they choose easy life.

And herein lies the problem - they can think, and they're seeing the harm done by elements of the Church in Poland. These people are the lifeblood of the Catholic Church - after all, who has the money to give 20zl instead of 6zl for a christmas candle? Certainly not the elder Kaczynski voters - who are dying out anyway.

And unfortunately I share opinions with people who don't like GW. I agree with a term "szmatławiec".

Only a deluded person would call the most popular newspaper in Poland "worthless".
noreenb 7 | 557
22 Dec 2010 #93
delphiandomine
And herein lies the problem - they can think, and they're seeing the harm done by elements of the Church in Poland. These people are the lifeblood of the Catholic Church - after all, who has the money to give 20zl instead of 6zl for a christmas candle? Certainly not the elder Kaczynski voters - who are dying out anyway.

He what!?

I had a chance to spend there over 6 months. I know how the newspaper works. I am not a pig and I will not criticise them, but those I worked with don't see opinion of normal people. I was treating not nicely (saying gently) there by many who worked with me. That's why I rather not change my opinion about GW soon.

Sorry GW.
:(
OP sobieski 107 | 2,128
22 Dec 2010 #94
In the end none of the religionists and Radio Marijaists did answer my question. Why did the Lunar Twins live in PRL times in a very spacy and comfortable flat in elitist Żoliborz?

Why they do not reject Father Wiśniewski's open letter?
Second point. The resemblance between Poland and France (has to be painful for the Dmowski-ites).
Let us go back to April 1986. The Chernobyl reactor explodes. Tons of radioactive waste is polluting Europe. Except in France. The French government decrees that in France there is no pollution. The fact that they depend on nuclear energy could be coincidence.

Fast forward to 2010. The Catholic Church everywhere in Europe is shaken on its foundations by pedophile scandals. Scores of rapacious priests raping and molesting children.

Lawsuits everywhere. And this all stops...on the Polish border...The most Catholic country in Europe and its priests are blameless, clean... Hmm ? Of course there was the pederast Paetz, but he was molesting seminarists (and now again is a church hero)

Brussels, today. The entire Belgian episcopate is grilled by a parliamentary committee on child abuse. In Poland thaty would be social death for any MP.
z_darius 14 | 3,968
22 Dec 2010 #95
Why did the Lunar Twins live in PRL times in a very spacy and comfortable flat in elitist Żoliborz?

Perhaps that's because the question is silly.
What does the size of the apartment have to do with anything?
delphiandomine 88 | 18,475
22 Dec 2010 #96
What does the size of the apartment have to do with anything?

Erm, perhaps you might want to ask yourself just how someone got such a spacious flat in such an area during PRL times.

I've long thought that Jarek's obsession with "bolek" is all due to shame at his father's collusion.
z_darius 14 | 3,968
22 Dec 2010 #97
Erm, perhaps you might want to ask yourself just how someone got such a spacious flat in such an area during PRL times.

How old were you during those times?
Every freaking "badylarz" did much better than living in a spacious apartment.

I knew plenty of people who were anything but close to commies and they lived in places you could ride bicycles in.

I can understand real arguments but this smacks of witch hunting and abrakadabras.Bring on some real arguments, not some gossip and suppositions.
delphiandomine 88 | 18,475
22 Dec 2010 #98
Bring on some real arguments, not some gossip and suppositions.

Funny - when people use gossip and suppositions against the people who thrive on it, they seem to complain and howl. It's the exact same reason that Palikot has so much fun winding up Kaczynski supporters - they like to spread nonsense, but they can't stand when the nonsense is used against them.
bimber94 7 | 254
22 Dec 2010 #99
Here's my last word on this thread, quoting Mahatma Gandhi:
"I like your Christ. I do not like your Christians. Your Christians are so unlike your Christ".
and
"Those who say that religion has nothing to do with politics do not know what religion is".
G'night all.
Olaf 6 | 956
23 Dec 2010 #100
Seeing and molesting are 2 very different things.

In other parts of the same Bible, seeing in this context was used as having sex, so it is very likely Ham had abused his father.
cheehaw 2 | 263
23 Dec 2010 #101
"I like your Christ. I do not like your Christians. Your Christians are so unlike your Christ".

So go become a Hindu like Ghandi was and see if you find paradise. Start with being an untouchable.

but back to the church, this is an eye opener:

belfasttelegraph.co.uk/news/world-news/popersquos-child-porn-normal-claim-sparks-outrage-among-victims-15035449.html
Bzibzioh
23 Dec 2010 #102
this is an eye opener:

Eye opener? Not for me.

I watched once an interview with child psychologist on TV and she said that back in the 60s when she started looking into the issue of child's sexual abuse, the whole scientific research on the subject back then you could read in one hour. It was just a few pages and that was all. So what the Pope is saying now refers to this I think; basically nobody took it seriously, ergo it was "normal".
cheehaw 2 | 263
23 Dec 2010 #103
Had people known the extent of this 'normalcy' they probably would have spoken out a lot sooner.

Now that you are aware that this is normal, will you be sending your kids to a Catholic school?
Bzibzioh
23 Dec 2010 #104
Had people known the extent of this 'normalcy' they probably would have spoken out a lot sooner.

Not many were aware of traumatizing effect of sexual abuse for children, back then it was consider "inappropriate" but not criminal.

Now that you are aware that this is normal,

oh, be fair, he's talking about 70s.
cheehaw 2 | 263
23 Dec 2010 #105
oh, be fair, he's talking about 70s.

Talking 70's to excuse today's behavior doesn't really work for me. the pope is looking more like Lot today than Jesus, if you ask me. Maybe in a few years he'll look like Lot's wife heh.
Bzibzioh
23 Dec 2010 #106
Talking 70's to excuse today's behavior doesn't really work for me.

For me is just hysteria and an opportunity to bash the church. I don't even care if he addresses this issue or not again. He already apologized, paid the victims and made changes when dealing with this problem. Good enough for me.
trener zolwia 1 | 940
23 Dec 2010 #107
is just hysteria and an opportunity to bash the church

That's all any of this ever is. Pay it no mind at all. It says more about the bashers than it does the church.
delphiandomine 88 | 18,475
23 Dec 2010 #108
For me is just hysteria and an opportunity to bash the church. I don't even care if he addresses this issue or not again. He already apologized, paid the victims and made changes when dealing with this problem. Good enough for me.

He's doing an ok job, but he's failing miserably to stop the Vatican from attempting to interfere with legal processes. Whta he should do is simply demand that the Church fully cooperates with the law in identifying the abusers and ex-communicating them without delay.

I suspect such a move would gain huge respect from all but the loony branches.
Teffle 22 | 1,321
23 Dec 2010 #109
I suspect such a move would gain huge respect from all but the loony branches.

I agree.
Olaf 6 | 956
23 Dec 2010 #110
That would definitely

gain huge respect from all

I guess. The Church would take away at least one major point from their opponents and show that their attitude is appropriate.
Ironside 50 | 10,810
23 Dec 2010 #111
I see that so called atheist love to talk about the Church 1
go on jerk off some more for all to see what you really are ....sickos ! for me it was a real eye opener:)
delphiandomine 88 | 18,475
23 Dec 2010 #112
The Church would take away at least one major point from their opponents and show that their attitude is appropriate.

Yup - if it was backed up by serious, worldwide child protection policies, there really would be nothing to argue about. It would even strengthen the church - and would perhaps finally rid the church of the "haven for child abusers" label.
Olaf 6 | 956
23 Dec 2010 #113
go on jerk off some more for all to see what you really are ....sickos !

Somebody is loosing nerves here. As always.

I see that so called atheist love to talk about the Church 1

Are you then a "so called churchist"?? ;)

Ironside, why wouldn't someone want to discuss such major social and political matters? Since the Church is visible and is acting in these arenas speaking for the rest of the people (e.g. lobbying on enforcing laws that would concern everyone) - why deprive some people the right to speak about the Church? Is it taboo for you?
Seanus 15 | 19,706
23 Dec 2010 #114
I think another dimension is that of permissiveness. When you are governed by a dogma, you tend to approve of that which seems to further it. Many Poles let it happen without questioning it. Support for that proposition is the approach to corruption/bribes over the years. It's no secret that such an element exists and has existed for a long time yet many either laugh it off or turn a blind eye. That doesn't get to the heart of the matter at all.

It shouldn't need a scandal to instigate action. There should be regular monitoring given that the church should be an institution that upholds standards. Religion should not be a cloak from which to hide behind.
delphiandomine 88 | 18,475
23 Dec 2010 #115
Is it taboo for you?

Perhaps he should read Wisniewski's letter again.

I wonder how many of the "churchists" have actually read it?
Olaf 6 | 956
23 Dec 2010 #116
I wonder how many of the "churchists" have actually read it?

From what I see and read around - not many. Also few actually read the Bible, and other sources they should know well. But instead some people here [not all, some;) ] don't even follow the more well known Christian guidelines to love thy brother and spill loads of hate when other people ask questions and reflect on the questionable deeds of the Church.
Seanus 15 | 19,706
23 Dec 2010 #117
There should be a greater degree of openness and transparency as it is ultimately people that subscribe to the teachings of the church. However, some of the same shenanigans that happen in the higher echelons of govt also happen in their church counterpart.
Ironside 50 | 10,810
23 Dec 2010 #118
Somebody is loosing nerves here

nerves ? come on its boring :(

Is it taboo for you?

no, I just don't like you outsiders being so smart and full of wisdom - when you are clearly not and if you are not part of the church it doesn't affect you much !

Religion should not be a cloak from which to hide behind.

nothing should be a cloack to hide behing anything and should be able to face everthing in the sun light. However, and I'm sure it will not be suprise for you, people are just people and like to hide their dark deeds!

More so, for devil conspiraces lurking in the dark places :)
In the case of the church we are talking only about human imperfaction - whats new ?
Seanus 15 | 19,706
23 Dec 2010 #119
What form of human imperfection are you alluding to, I-S, and what is the relation to the church?
frd 7 | 1,399
23 Dec 2010 #120
if you are not part of the church it doesn't affect you much !

Not true, if you are not part of the church and you live in Poland it still does affect you. No matter what you can't deny years of tradition. And the fact of religion and politics being intertwined in this country for so long you have the very right to speak your mind concerning it.


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