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A devestating verdict on the Polish church


Bzibzioh
30 Dec 2010 #241
However, criticism against them has been mounting for quite a long time now and they need this transparency drive to restore some shreds of credibility.

Restore some shreds of credibility? Szonuś, nobody gives a damn to gain credibility in the eyes of secular non-believers like you.
Seanus 15 | 19,706
30 Dec 2010 #242
What does secularity have to do with it?? Non-believer, that's one of the funniest things I've heard!! I think you have me confused with sb else. Now, personal 'wayward' assessments aside, let's stay on track and see how they lack credibility. Why give to an institution which only now has begun to instigate reforms and implement measures which seek to curb laundering? My faith comes from within (a very deep one), a distant cry from those who want the latest model of Alfa Romeo, thank you very much!!
milky 13 | 1,657
30 Dec 2010 #243
Pope John Paul I died only 33 days into his Pontificate (August 26, 1978 - September 28, 1978). Some say he was murdered by the mafia because he wanted to tackle the financial corruption and hypocrisy of the church.
Seanus 15 | 19,706
30 Dec 2010 #244
There is a lot of money to be made through an institution like the church. The very fact that they believed he could get to the heart of the corruption dealings showed how much power they felt he had.
Olaf 6 | 956
30 Dec 2010 #245
However, criticism against them has been mounting for quite a long time now and they need this transparency drive to restore some shreds of credibility.

Restore some shreds of credibility? Szonuś, nobody gives a damn to gain credibility in the eyes of secular non-believers like you.

- Well, if they want to have respect and credibility they should take care of this, shouldn't they.
Besides, Bzibzioh (always wanted to know if that's your name or what?) If I understood you correctly, you are not being fair here: if you say that nobody gives a damn what secular non-believers think, then why the secular non-believers should take any interest in what the believers think? If so, then all religious symbols and national holidays and everything religious should be removed form public spaces etc. just to be fair and not promote any one religion, and keep to the constitution of Poland which says it is a secular country, not religious one. See, I'm not saying it should be done to such a major extent, but would be fair if we "didn't give a damn"...
Seanus 15 | 19,706
30 Dec 2010 #246
Very good riposte, Olaf :) One of the best retorts to a biased and inaccurate post of a Plastic Pole. Food for thought indeed!
Ironside 50 | 10,810
30 Dec 2010 #247
If so, then all religious symbols and national holidays and everything religious should be removed form public spaces etc.

Well, lets have a vote on this one !
Barney 15 | 1,476
30 Dec 2010 #248
Some say he was murdered by the mafia because he wanted to tackle the financial corruption and hypocrisy of the church.

We have all read Yallop's books, another conspiracy theorist, next you will be telling us all about the albino monk...

if they want to have respect and credibility they should take care of this

That is exactly what they are doing, which part dont you understand.

if you say that nobody gives a damn what secular non-believers think, then why the secular non-believers should take any interest in what the believers think? If so, then all religious symbols and national holidays and everything religious should be removed form public spaces etc.

This is a perfect example of a zero sum equation which came to fruition under Pol Pot. Evangelical atheists/agnostics always resort to this stupidity. Of course the state and Church should be separated, the state is not the arbiter of cultural identity or anything approaching it so saying that historical, religious symbols displayed in public are somehow representative of the state is just a lie, gross stupidity or Stalinism.

Why give to an institution which only now has begun to instigate reforms and implement measures which seek to curb laundering?

You can say exactly the same about National governments facilitating offshore banking.
OP sobieski 107 | 2,128
30 Dec 2010 #249
You can say exactly the same about National governments facilitating offshore banking.

National governments do not pretend to be pure.
Seanus 15 | 19,706
30 Dec 2010 #250
At last sb said it :) :) Spot on, sobieski :)
Ironside 50 | 10,810
31 Dec 2010 #251
National governments do not pretend to be pure.

Oh but they do ! at last that they are purer than opposition.......
On the other hand clergy doesn't pretend to be pure, where that silly idea coming from?
Seanus 15 | 19,706
31 Dec 2010 #252
Clergy DO pretend to be pure, I-S. Politicians have a mandate and manifesto. The church merely has a moral obligation and where is their pact? Governments are directly accountable to the people but who can hold a wayward priest to account? Many are aware of their child pedo actions but little is done. A politician would be grilled for that.
Barney 15 | 1,476
31 Dec 2010 #253
Clergy DO pretend to be pure

No, Clergy dont pretend to be pure that would be blasphemous. According to all Christian churches the clergy are no purer or holier than you or I.

National governments do not pretend to be pure.

True they dont, what is your point?
Ironside 50 | 10,810
31 Dec 2010 #254
Clergy DO pretend to be pure

well, something that I'm not aware of .....

Governments are directly accountable to the people

really ?:D

can hold a wayward priest to account?

people ?
surly you are a naive fellow .....:)
Seanus 15 | 19,706
31 Dec 2010 #255
Barney, define pure please.

I-S, to się dowiedz ;)

Not the EU, no, but national governments

Naive? Why would you say so?
Ironside 50 | 10,810
31 Dec 2010 #256
I-S, to się dowiedz ;)

they do not pretend to be pure, quite the opposite

Naive? Why would you say so?

saying all this stuff as if you believed that it all works this way you described -I mean about a governments ...
Barney 15 | 1,476
31 Dec 2010 #257
Barney, define pure please.

Well I used it in the same context as you.

I still dont see where the clergy claim to be purer than others.
Seanus 15 | 19,706
31 Dec 2010 #258
A couple of loose answers there, ok. If they are to be the intermediary between Man and God then they should be pure. If they were impure, how would they forgive those who had sinned? Why even have a church at all if I sin far less than they do?
Barney 15 | 1,476
31 Dec 2010 #259
Nothing loose about my answers, you brought the concept of pure to the thread I understood what you wrote and answered accordingly. If you are not sure of your own words don't expect others to explain them back to you.

I didn't say that the clergy are intermediaries between man and god I said that they are no purer than you or I as their bible tells them.

I repeat Christian clergy do not claim to be purer than others. I would like you to point to where you believe that they say they are purer than others.

Anyway I can spot two errors in what you wrote; an intermediary doesnt have to be pure and they dont forgive sins. I was talking about all Christians not just Catholics.
Seanus 15 | 19,706
31 Dec 2010 #260
They occupy a certain position which places the utmost importance on moral standing. In order to forgive the sinful, you must be a morally upstanding person yourself. I'm very sure of my own words here.

Many don't live by proverbs and Godly wisdom but priests, knowing the Bible, have a duty to serve those that they take money from.

They seek to be revered and that involves projecting a pure image. This is not like a teacher who goes out with his students when seen to be an authority figure. I haven't seen a priest wellied yet.

Then tell the intermediary priest to get out of the remittance of sin business ;) ;) One strand calles it repentance, the other calls it penitence. I was talking about the RCC as being the main Catholic church.
Bzibzioh
31 Dec 2010 #261
you are not being fair here: if you say that nobody gives a damn what secular non-believers think.

You are confusing internal Catholic Church matter and external CC matter. Church's members may ask about finances, non-members may not. Celebrating religious holidays is part of social structure of any given country and part of religious freedoms, but not a church's "reward" for good behavior, like you are suggesting. Not to mention that not just Catholics celebrate them but also members of other Christian churches, like Orthodox or Protestant. So your argument is just ridiculous.

Very good riposte, Olaf :) One of the best retorts to a biased and inaccurate post of a Plastic Pole.

Doesn't take much to make you happy, conspiracy boy.
Ironside 50 | 10,810
31 Dec 2010 #262
In order to forgive the sinful, you must be a morally upstanding person yourself. I'm very sure of my own words here.

No, it doesn't work that way in the RCC!

should be removed form public spaces etc. just to be fair and not promote any one religion,

What that gibberish is about ? Removing from public spaces everything religious is not as you try to persuade fair, but in reality is a very aggressive action against religion ! Anyone attempting such action should be put behind the bars as fukker he is ! Secular country means that states is no interfering into religious matters - thats all! And over-interpretation by some fukkers should be branded for what it really is - an anti-religious aggression !
Babinich 1 | 455
31 Dec 2010 #263
Clergy DO pretend to be pure, I-S.

I'll challenge that statement. Not a single priest I interact with believes they're pure.
Olaf 6 | 956
31 Dec 2010 #264
Well, lets have a vote on this one !

A vote on changing constitution? Hah! There is a Trybunał Konstytucyjny - are you a member of it?

Evangelical atheists/agnostics

- What in the name of Dark Lord is an Evangelical atheist?

On the other hand clergy doesn't pretend to be pure, where that silly idea coming from?

- No? They reserve the monopoly for saying what is right and pure and true. They are like modern fashion designers: you won't wear those clothes because they are unwearable, not practical and look like from outer space, only look interesting on a catwalk and not in everyday live. But still they determine the trends! Look down at the pic.

priests, knowing the Bible, have a duty to serve those that they take money from.

You are confusing internal Catholic Church matter and external CC matter. Church's members may ask about finances, non-members may not.

Not confusing anything. And not only members can ask since every tax payer's money goes to RCC. I wrote this before - you don't have a choice. So one CAN ask why and not like it.

Secular country means that states is no interfering into religious matters - thats all!

- ...and this secular country sets and keeps the boundaries for any Church from interferring in matters not being religion's agenda.

anti-religious aggression

WHERE is thie agression exactly?

a single priest I interact with

apocalypsecartoons.com/fathertucker/fathertucker.html

but also members of other Christian churches, like Orthodox or Protestant. So your argument is just ridiculous.

Not all of them, they celebrate the ones common, The onec not supported by RCC are not holidays.

Removing from public spaces everything religious is not as you try to persuade fair

- YOh, because one needs to be reminded about their duties to their faith at each step? Does the faith need to be promoted this way and be reminded of? Is it that effervescent that if you don't put a cross or mount giant screaming loudspeakers OUTSIDE a church to wake up all neighbourhood, people will forget that they are supposed to follow?


  • Ain't that practical?
Ironside 50 | 10,810
31 Dec 2010 #265
since every tax payer's money goes to RCC.

BS and you interpretation sucks !
AdamKadmon 2 | 508
31 Dec 2010 #266
God lives!... That's only a rumour!

If there is no God,
Not everything is permitted to man.
He is still his brother's keeper,
And he is not permitted to sadden
his brother,
By saying that there is no God.

Seanus 15 | 19,706
31 Dec 2010 #267
Bzibby, you can attach labels but they are merely dismissive. Official lines tend to be more full of crap.

Babinich, that's what happens when you only know one priest ;)

Then they are no better than you or I so why would I go to a priest when I know what Jesus died for us all? Maybe some reading on sanctification and justification is in order for some people.
Babinich 1 | 455
1 Jan 2011 #268
Whether you believe in the sacrament of confession is irrelevant.

Your statement was that clergy pretend to be pure. The priests I know do not believe themselves to be pure.
OP sobieski 107 | 2,128
1 Jan 2011 #269
Your statement was that clergy pretend to be pure. The priests I know do not believe themselves to be pure.

The polish church thinks it is pure. Good example..The episcopate last week announced that it "allowed" people to celebrate Sylwester, what with being it on a Friday. The arrogance. I wonder what they were doing 31-12?

Could they not concentrate themselves on eliminating Radio Marija and other worthwhile causes?
Ironside 50 | 10,810
1 Jan 2011 #270
The polish church thinks it is pure.

Didn't those Jesuits teach you anything ?


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