Real Estate / Buying/Building a house in Poland/Wroclaw metro area [12]


How long is a piece of string?. Renovation work is always a lot more expensive than new build and with a house that is 80 years old it can be an absolute "bottomless pit". Before you even start on the shell, you will need to check the foundations (if there are any), roof/floor timbers, electric and plumbing and external drainage. If you are talking about a complete refurbishment then it may be cheaper to knock it down and start again.

Spend a little money on a full survey before you contemplate buying, it could save you a fortune.

Real Estate / House prices in Poland to drop more or rise again? [228]


Did you really understand what majatek had posted? He is not talking about "normal housing" to live in, he is referring to what would be regarded as palaces and mansions with a lot of land, not, the type of properties that you and milky seem to think are overpriced, you are talking about a home for yourselves to bring up a family, he is talking about pure investment. Any price will be "too much" for him as he wants to maximise his profits when he sells on. Are you and milky looking to buy a house or apartment with sitting tenants?

majatek

"Every pile of rubble is now described as having the potential to become a hotel, sauna, health spa etc - and what appears to be a favourite, that you could breed race horses there! And, of course, these 'wonderful business opportunities' (piles of rubble) have prices to match - anything up to eight million zloty!!!!"

"And then there are the sitting tenants!"

"The fact that you are the new OWNER of the 'big house' will class you as the latest in a long line of capitalist oppressors!"

"The historic buildings konservator will also see you as a rich uncle."

Real Estate / House prices in Poland to drop more or rise again? [228]

Milky, who are you calling a "straw man" you dumb mick. What do you know about Poland?, do you live here? Again, I ask you to provide links/facts that prices will crash 50% in Poland. You asked a "complex question", but, you did not get the answer you wanted to hear. You are the one who believes what the doom mongers like polsky predicted. You were on these threads last year, are you angry because it still has not happened?

Below is information provided by the Nationwide Building society, who, to the best of my knowledge do not print newspapers.


The prices are not what people are asking. They are taken from the records of HMCR stamp duty and land registry information on property sold (not being sold).

Real Estate / House prices in Poland to drop more or rise again? [228]

milkyThreads: -
Posts: 30
Joined: Oct 26, 09
Gender: Male
Mar 14, 10, 21:03 / #6


Well, you have waited a year now, has the price of property dropped 50%?. Have you bought a property in Poland?. Nobody is being dilusional, its just that we have not seen the crash that you have. Perhaps you can provide some facts to back up your statements.


How can these companies lose money?, they have a monopoly and a captive consumer market.
If you do not pay their asking price, where else can you go?

Real Estate / House prices in Poland to drop more or rise again? [228]


Exactly the same has happened in the UK, water, electricity, gas and even waste collection is all owned by foriegn companies. Prices for the above utilities have increased by some 50% over the past 4 years and the government has no control over what is charged, is is not just Poland that is suffering. You have to question any government that would sell off a nations assets that are needed for the basic survival of its people.

Real Estate / House prices in Poland to drop more or rise again? [228]


Where did I imply that the British would be coming to buy properties in Poland?. I only posted a report from the Warsaw Business Journal and stated that prices in the UK were on the way up. Whether this will continue or there is going to be another correction in prices, I would not care to guess. I personally don't give a s**t who buys the properties. Just stating the facts as they are reported.

Real Estate / House prices in Poland to drop more or rise again? [228]


Warsaw Business Journal

Rebuilding demand

26th April 2010
Banks are increasingly active in home lending, but continuing restrictions on project loans mean that developers are having trouble keeping up with demand

Max 100 words + URL

If you read the above artical and recall my posts, warning that the banks witholding funds from developers would cause a shortage, which, will push prices back up. It is not in the Banks interest to have mortgages with negative equity, thus they and the developers will control the prices.

I fully expect to hear replies that developers will still be building and selling properties for 50% of the cost of building them, this has not happened yet. Perhaps Milky can explain to you all why property prices in the UK have risen by 10% over the past year compared to 2007 prices. (1.2% in the past month) Perhaps this means the the British property sellers have the same attitude as the Polish sellers?

News / Will todays tragedy effect the economy of Poland? [34]

I am touched that your thoughts are of the economy, rather than the dead and the relatives that are left to mourne. I suppose that business is business, you should fit in well if you are thinking of investing in Poland. Perhaps you can set up a chain of shops selling plastic figurines of the ex-president of maybe even scarves to sell to the football fans.

Real Estate / House prices in Poland to drop more or rise again? [228]

No offence taken Convex. I was a member of the Federation of Master Builders for over 30 years.
I know all about "cowboy builders".

Real Estate / How are Poland's properties priced? [51]


My flats are priced at 2,900 - 3,500 PLN m2. They are not in Krakow. They are at the moment an hours drive from Krakow. The new motorway will be a 2 minute drive away (completion 2011) and then the journey will take about 30 mins. There is a communial garden, external storage sheds for bikes/skis, 2 parking spaces for each flat, all fenced in with remote contol gates and security lighting.

Try getting that in Krakow.

What the fcuk do I know about pricing in Poland, I'm just a rip of developer, according to Mark Biernat.

• 
  
  
• 
  
  
• 
  
  
• 
  
  

Real Estate / House prices in Poland to drop more or rise again? [228]


There are builders and then there are builders. The foundations I put in for my two story apartments are much better than the standard used in the UK. There, they use a "trench fill" with a 600mm wide by 225mm depth of concrete. I am happy to give a 10 year guarantee on the structure, no problem.

• 
  
  
• 
  
  
• 
  
  
• 
  
  

Real Estate / How are Poland's properties priced? [51]

mulsie

I agree with most of your post but if development in smaller towns and rural areas is not carried out it will lead to many of the younger workers moving to the larger cities, thus exasperating the problem.

Real Estate / How are Poland's properties priced? [51]


No. What the banker is saying is that "why should I pay security guards to look after the house, pay city/state land taxes, renovate the house before I can sell it, when all I have to do is write it off as a bad debt and claim tax relief/TARP funds and get my money back from the taxpayer"

News / Can a Polish person give up EU handouts? [15]

I never thought I would agree with you RN

This morning I watched a tv reporter interviewing some farmers in Central France who were complaining that their subsidies from the EU had been lowered and that they were all going bankrupt.

This brought back to mind a sequence of events from last Summer.

July 2009........EU commission decides that France has illegally claimed 500 million Euros in subsidies for its farmers and fruit growers, going back to 2002. French government admits this.

It askes France to pay this money back with interest. French government goes back to the farmers and tells them they have to pay the money back. French farmers tell the government to fek off.

EU commission tells French government that money must be repaid by September, when this does not happen they extend the deadline until January 2010

Sept/Oct 2009.....Sarkosy spends 90 million euros on swine flue injections of which only 5 million is actually used.

Feb 2010...After Haiti earthquake, Sarkosy visits and cancels Haitian debt of 53 million euros and promises aid of 326 million euros.

By my calculations, France is still 41 million euros up on the deal and its countries like the UK who are paying in 43 million pounds per day into the EU coffers who have to fund this.

I have no problem with giving aid to the Haitians, but I wish the French would use their own money for once.

Real Estate / How are Poland's properties priced? [51]


I find this post interesting. Its not just how properties are valued.
I was looking at some Polish property websites the other day and decided to play around with their "mortgage calculators", it seemed on average that to buy a house or apartment in the region of 300,000 PLN, the maximum they would lend you was 154,000 PLN, only 50% of the cost.

My conclusion was that the banks are still unwilling to take even the minutist risk at all.
This Summer, the EU Banks, UK and USA are supposed to be coming up with proposals to regulate all banks. This will involve, setting a limit to the amounts of liquidity that these banks have to hold at all times to protect them from any future crises.

The percentage of ther liquidity has still not been decided so in the meantime, the banks are only investing in government bonds and increasing the interest rates to existing customers to build up as much cash as possible to make sure that they have adequate reserves to meet any regulations that may be brought in.

A prime example of this is the UK. Many billions of pounds of tax payers money was used to bail out the Royal Bank of Scotland and yet this bank is constantly being criticised for failing to lend to small business's, despite so called pressure from the British government which holds a 70% stake in the bank.

A large number of small business's in the UK who have never been in trouble financially are now having their overdraft facilities withdrawn or having to pay ursuary rates of interest on exisitng loans. The UK government bleats on about "recovery" and as usual, does nothing.

The banks do not seem interested in long term loans, they are so used to making huge amounts in the short term. Credit cards at 26% interest, small loan amounts ie:3,000 - 10,000 PLN and paying huge bonus's and dividents to their shareholders, that, they seem to have lost the plot about what the banks are there for.

Everyone now has to pay for the irresponsible lending/greed of these banks and indeed, to a certain extent, irresponsible borrowers. But, if you offer large amounts of money to people, without checking carefully on their ability to repay, defaults are bound to happen.

The value of property will be governed by the ability to borrow and the supply and demand.

Law / I have to fix Karta Pobytu for EU citizens [20]

I had the 5 year residence permit which ran out December. Applied to Krakow for permanent residence (office is at Ul.Ronda 6, which is not mentioned on the government website).

Filled in the forms (downloaded online) in Polish, sent reference letter from local mayor, had to get Zamedlowanie from local office as my address on the residence card is the same, but, they would not believe me. Sent 5 photo's (which they lost), another copy of my passport (which is exactly the same as the one they took a copy of 5 years ago). No fee is mentioned on the website so added a note explaining this and to let me know if there was a fee so I could transfer it.

Two weeks later they replied that I had to attend in person. I explained that it does not say this on the website and that I was told on the phone to "send" these documents.

I refused to go to Krakow so they agreed to let me take the documents to a local office in Tarnow (why they did not let me do this in the first place is beyond my comprehension).

A week later 2 policemen came to the house, looked at my details and informed me that my 5 year residence permit had expired, after explaining that I could live anywhere in the EU without a permit and that Polish people in the UK did not get issued with them. they told me that their job was to see if I was a risk to state security, which is a bit late after 6 years. This was about a month ago. So all in all, I am expecting to hear something in April but I am not going to hold my breath while I'm waiting.

I love this country.

Love / WHY DO POLISH MEN LIE? [150]

You can always tell when Polish men are lying. Their lips move.

Real Estate / Apartments too expensive for Poles living in Poland [54]


Then get ready for a lot more government handouts!!!!
The is going to be a new EU law/regulation that will force EU countries with substandard housing to build more social housing, especially in rural areas that have been ignored in the past.

Follow the link below. I personally think that this is a good idea.

europarl.europa.eu/oeil/FindByProcnum.do?lang=en&procnum=CO D/2009/0105

I hate the EU with a vengance, but this is one of the better policies and it should be implemented as quickly as possible.
As SeanBM states, there is plenty of land within a 30 min drive from the centre of the cities and with the new infastructure being built, it should be possible to buy a new apartment or house from around 2,500-3,000 PLN m2


Nothing wrong with this if you have enough space, or, perhaps as the parents get older, they should put them in a nursing home for £3,000.00. a month, just like the UK, and if they have no money or assets that the government can make them sell, they would still end up in a home at the taxpayers expense.

What is so wrong about looking after the people who gave you life and kept you until you reached adulthood. Thats one of the reasons I love the Polish people so much, the respect that they give to their elders. The family is everything, not a burden to bear.


Exactly as I have said in previous posts. Built during communist times to a very poor standard.
What happens when these "concrete blocks" have to be replaced?
I do not have the answer to these problems, but, I know that "wishing" does not solve them.

Real Estate / Apartments too expensive for Poles living in Poland [54]

I agree, and, if you don't meet this criteria, you sleep on the street or rent. There must be millions of Poles sleeping rough then?. There arn't?, why?

Real Estate / Has the Poland real estate bubble popped? [12]


So you are back to using this name Mark?.......well you are only a year out on your prediction so there is still plenty of time. I was wondering if you actually write letters to the Warsaw Business Journal to tell them what liars they are? You do read financial journals, don't you?

Real Estate / Has the Poland real estate bubble popped? [12]

Its interesting that this thread was posted a year ago and there was much speculation by forum members as to whether prices would collapse as according to Polsky (and all his alias's) or perhaps decline slowly. Well, there has not been a 50% drop as Polsky predicted and if the following artical is to be believed, the market has bottomed out.

Apartments prices in Poland gaining ground

9th February 2010

Polish developers are giving fewer and smaller discounts to clients after observing an increase in interest in real estate.

According to research conducted by real estate consultants Reas, by the end of 2009 the average price of real estate per square meter in Warsaw amounted to zł.7,800 – a rise of seven percent over the Q3 average. Poznań and the Tri-city area saw rises of six and three percent respectively.

The days when property buyers got double-digit percentage discounts at real-estate brokers are behind us, Reas says. According to Katarzyna Kuniewicz, an analyst with Reas, brokers now give discounts of two to four percent. (RG)

Source: Rzeczpospolita

From Warsaw Business Journal

Mark, keep buying tickets for the lotto, you may be able to afford tthat flat someday.

Life / If I move to a big city in Poland will I come across a lot of English speakers? [32]

I have been here for nearly 7 years. I can understand your reasons. If you need any questions answered, PM me.

Law / Bureaucracy in Poland [53]

Perhaps he was trying to persuade them that he wanted to buy a new flat for 200 PLN m2?

Travel / Travel from Krakow to Sandomierz [7]

If you are going to see the castle then you will need an auto.

Real Estate / Poland Commercial Real Estate News. Which companies are active now? [8]

Craig Smith

Log on to the Warsaw Business Journal and look in the office section from the real estate drop down menu. It should tell you what you need to know.

Real Estate / Is there a Real Estate bubble in Krakow? [60]


Yes, and its a lot more expensive here than in the UK.
eg:Small block of flats in the UK, architect, planning permission, buidling inspector. £4-5000.00.
This includes 5 visits from Local council building inspector.

Poland, architect, planning permission £10-20,000 depending on greed. You then have to employ your own building inspector and pay him around around £100.00. a month for 1 or 2 half hour visits and this is for the duration of the contract. On completion, you pay £200.00. each for the electrics and water connection to be tested and certified and "stamped"(this is not carried out by the companies that install same)

The city council then have to "sign off" the building (legalize it) and if there is any discrepancy on any measurements you are fined £600.00. On my parking spaces (for 26 cars I was undersized by 60cm, apparently, nobody in Poland drives a Maluch, they all drive SUV's or Rolls Royces) so was fined. They always find something wrong so there is always a fine. (Nobody told me this in the beginning but apparently its the norm in Poland)

On 13 apartments, the man that issues the "energy certificate" ( or HIPS as its known in the UK) wanted £200.00. per apartment but managed to talk him down to £900.00. as a job lot.

I could write a book or make a film about getting the electricity, water and gas companies to actually connect the building up to the mains services. You have to get the written permission of all the neighbours and landowners over/under wherever the cables/pipes pass and God help you if they live abroad or in the North of poland. This does not include the 50 visits to each office to sign different forms and sometimes travel to 3 different offices to get them"stamped".

I would have to say that time and moneywise, its at least 400% more expensive to do the paperwork for a project of identical size in the UK. This does not take into consideration, the stress of having to deal with the dumb bast***ds.

The moment you buy the land to build on, you pay a business tax, based on the size of the land until you have sold all the properties (this does not apply in the UK)

I have more paperwork for one project than I had for 10 years continuous work in the UK.

So when you read what Mark Biernat (Polsky, etc, etc, etc or whatever name he decides to use on the day) posts on these property threads, you know he is talking out of his ass.


I would want that just for the paperwork.

Real Estate / Is there a Real Estate bubble in Krakow? [60]

Mark, I have never denied I am a retired builder, do you have any skills at all?

I have experience of building in Poland, do you? You stated under an alias that you work in an accountants office and yet you seem to know nothing about business practice?

Do you understand English?.....I stated a fact, Poland has to adopt the euro as its currency. I have no idea as to exactly when but Tusk has pencilled in 2015. I only stated that wages will have to increase as will all commodities.

Being called a liar is a bit rich coming from someone who spams this forum under so many alias's and has never backed up with facts, any statement he has made, except for a few articals that are dated prior to 2008 are totallaly irrelevant to the situation that exists in Krakow today.

Mark, you live in a fantasy world and should seriously consider seeking treatment.

Life / Tattoos and Popular culture in Poland [51]

I had a tattoo done on each forearm when I was 15 and then never had another one until some 25 years later. I had to wait for a couple of hours while my car was having an alarm fitted, took a walk and found myself outside of a tattoo parlour, got the urge and had another 3 on my legs and back.

I still cannot think of the reason why I wanted more. strange.

Real Estate / Is there a Real Estate bubble in Krakow? [60]

As a non-emotional builder, I can give you a some good reasons.

a) Even with 2,000.000 Poles working abroad, there is a need for some 3,000.000 new dwellings including those needed to replace exisiting defective housing stock.(Stats according to GUS 2004)

b) Building costs for new apartments is around 2,000 to 3,000 PLN m2 (average quality to developers standard, I am not talking high end developments) excluding the cost of the land.

(not the 600 PLN m2 that the idiot Mark Biernat would have you believe)
c) Average time from initial planning for large blocks or estate is 3-4 years by the time all permissions are granted.
d) Wages/materials/fuel used in constructioin have been rising for the past 4 years and are not going down.
e) Green taxes being brought in by the EU will increase the cost of everything from materials to the new certificates for "energy efficiency" that are required to be provided by the developers to the buyers (all these costs mount up substancially and have to be included as overall costs.

f) complying with Health & Safety legisilation with soon become compulsary in Poland (more jobs for the EU boys) which will again add to the cost of a project. (In the UK it added 8% to my project costs. ( an example would be having to supply toilets, showers and a canteen for the men on site, even small sites. Disposing of waste by approved contractors to landfill sites where they charge a fortune because of the EU regulations)

g) Financing a new project is going to cost more from the banks (if you can get them to lend to you) because of the ass-**le bankers.

h) As a pre-condition to joining the EU, Poland has to adopt the euro which means that wages will have to go up or is the suggestion that all the countries to the West of Poland will come here to do their shopping?. When Spain and Germany adopted the euro, prices for food etc, rose by around 15% and the people there are still complaining now.

So you see, 5-6000 PLN m2 does not seem all that expensive if you know what you are talking about and you want something "new". Developers have to make a profit to make it worthwhile to build at all. Try and remember a single building project that has come in under budget?

The reason that Polish people are asking 4000 PLN m2 for total crap is that they know they can get it as there is not enough "affordable new" on the market.

Poles would rather have a new car than a nice apartment, thats their choice, but you will see the price of cars shoot up in the next couple of years, if you can afford the petrol/diesel to drive them.

Petrol has risen by 50% in the past 4 years, has that stopped people from driving?
Perhaps people will go back to using horse and carts?

I have spent most of my whole working life in construction so I hope this is the non-emotional response you wanted.

I welcome constructive criticism about the property market here in Poland but when I want an opinion on my health, I do not ask a bus driver.

Do not ask me how the Polish people will be able to afford housing, I have no idea, any more than I have any idea why nearly eveything here is dealt with in cash purchases.

UK, Ireland / UK Sky TV in Poland [39]

I stumbled across something called "tenchis tv" (google it). It seems to originate from Spanish source but they have loads of TV stations and films in English but with Spanish sub-titles.