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Apartments too expensive for Poles living in Poland


bolek 6 | 330
13 Feb 2010  #1
As many as twenty percent of Poles who were planning to buy an apartment in 2009 abandoned the idea, shows a report by Gfk Polonia and Nowy Adres.

Almost 40 percent of potential buyers resigned from buying an apartment last year because of high prices, even though real estate prices dropped slightly during the economic crisis.

Twenty-three percent of people mentioned high interest rates of mortgage loans as an obstacle to purchase their own apartment, 19 percent did not buy because they were refused a mortgage and 14 percent because they were afraid of losing a job and not being able to pay back a loan.

"Apartments in Poland are still too expensive and most Poles cannot afford them," says Katarzyna Cyprynowska from Nowy Adres, a real estate market analysis firm which co-wrote the report based on a survey conducted among 1,500 Poles. (mg/mmj)

I suppose 80% are ready to purchase! come on the Property rise!
SeanBM 35 | 5,808
13 Feb 2010  #2
I believe you have misinterpreted the information but the artical is so badly written I have trouble myself fully understanding it.
I think the first problem is it just pushes figures and doesn't compare them to anything else.

I suppose 80% are ready to purchase!

It is not 80% of Polish people that are going to buy real estate.
From the article it is 80% of people that wanted to buy in the first place.

come on the Property rise!

I don't think prises will substantially rise or fall.

I think the article itself is misleading or just not well written:

As many as twenty percent of Poles who were planning to buy an apartment in 2009 abandoned the idea, shows a report by Gfk Polonia and Nowy Adres.

20% who were going to buy didn't

Almost 40 percent of potential buyers resigned from buying an apartment last year because of high prices, even though real estate prices dropped slightly during the economic crisis.

Now it is 40%

Twenty-three percent of people mentioned high interest rates of mortgage loans as an obstacle to purchase their own apartment, 19 percent did not buy because they were refused a mortgage and 14 percent because they were afraid of losing a job and not being able to pay back a loan.

23% plus 19% plus 14% is 56%

Add them all together and you get 116%

It could be saying that of the 20% that did not buy 40% of those did not buy because of W, 23% because of X, 19% because of Y and 14 % because of Z.

Which still only makes up only 96%, if it said that 4% is due to other reasons fine but it doesn't.
pantsless 1 | 267
14 Feb 2010  #3
come on the Property rise!

says the speculator... get real.
convex 20 | 3,978
14 Feb 2010  #4
23% plus 19% plus 14% is 56%

Add them all together and you get 116%

look Sean, 116% of people can't be wrong :)

Anyway, it's simple. Take median household income after taxes for a city, subtract the monthly mortgage and insurance payment for a median 60m2 flat from income, if you end up with more than half of your income left over, the property is affordable (barely), if there is less than that, it's not affordable.

The usual shtick is that you can afford 2-3x your yearly income on property.
Avalon 4 | 1,068
14 Feb 2010  #5
I agree, and, if you don't meet this criteria, you sleep on the street or rent. There must be millions of Poles sleeping rough then?. There arn't?, why?
pantsless 1 | 267
14 Feb 2010  #6
There must be millions of Poles sleeping rough then?

Most older Poles still have their apartments from communist times, and a lot pass from generation to generation. And I know of alot of young couple who still live with their parents or extended family or get money from them. What most discovered the best thing to do is have a baby and then ask for handouts.
convex 20 | 3,978
14 Feb 2010  #7
I agree, and, if you don't meet this criteria, you sleep on the street or rent. There must be millions of Poles sleeping rough then?. There arn't?, why?

Rent, city owned apartments, inherited property, living with mom and dad....

You think it's a good idea to spend over 50% of your household income on a mortgage? Do you think that's sustainable?

Edit:

Maybe this should be changed to New apartments too expensive for poles
milky 13 | 1,657
14 Feb 2010  #8
From my experience with Poland alot of people live like the Waltons..They are the leaders of Europe as far as squashing as many people as possible under the one roof. 3 generation in a sh1tty apartment..Not nice to see and its very common. The wages over there are been kept criminally low as part of their governments agenda to compete in the free market economy...young People just get so sick of living with the waltons that they just pay for mortgages that are absolutely out of their range...Pure desperation thats all...I know several people in this situation.the live a life of borderline poverty..And then people ranting about Poland booming ,what a load of b0l0x.
SeanBM 35 | 5,808
14 Feb 2010  #9
Most older Poles still have their apartments from communist times,

They are still alive, for the most part as it was only 20 years ago.

young couple who still live with their parents or extended family

living with mom and dad.

The amount of people who live with their family, here in Poland, is much bigger than many other European countries.
The sheer size of the houses here tells you that they play "The Generation Game" whereby 4/5 generations of a Polish family live together.

What most discovered the best thing to do is have a baby and then ask for handouts.

Hand outs from who or what?
The government doesn't have any form of handouts that you could live on well if you could get a job and family's are usually on a tight enough budget.

Of course families support themselves here but I would not call them handouts.

Maybe this should be changed to New apartments too expensive for poles

I would change it to "New apartments in the centre of cities too expensive for most Poles yet there are alternatives in the suburbs where housing is the same price as a small flat in the centre and with all the new roads it is easier than ever to get into town".

However I will concede that this title would be a little too long :)
convex 20 | 3,978
14 Feb 2010  #10
The government doesn't have any form of handouts that you could live on well if you could get a job and family's are usually on a tight enough budget.

The biggest handout of all are government owned apartments.

I would change it to New apartments in the centre of cities too expensive for most Poles yet there are alternatives in the suburbs where housing is the same price as a small flat in the centre and with all the new roads it is easier than ever to get into town.

They're still pretty pricey. I mean, using any of the commonly accepted criteria for budgeting, even an apartment in a panalak outside of the center would still break the family budget.
milky 13 | 1,657
14 Feb 2010  #11
Poland is still Gods playground..Its no longer Germans or Russians that hijack it but their own neo liberals who will wear any jersey for a quick dollar..They have to many loony parties with no real policy except for dog eats dog...The price of housing there is a form of imperialism..
bullfrog 6 | 603
14 Feb 2010  #12
The wages over there are been kept criminally low as part of their governments agenda to compete in the free market economy

No. The starting point was low, but the avarge growth paid has been growing at a much higher rate than in most western countries
delphiandomine 83 | 17,625
14 Feb 2010  #13
You think it's a good idea to spend over 50% of your household income on a mortgage? Do you think that's sustainable?

Unfortunately, it's accepted fact for most Europeans that housing is expensive.
convex 20 | 3,978
14 Feb 2010  #14
As far as spending such a large percentage of income on a mortgage, the Scandinavians don't do it, nor do the Germans, French...
milky 13 | 1,657
14 Feb 2010  #15
In 2004 it was about 40 cent per hour i think..It had to go up dramatically from this..but no growth of any significants in the last few years.. It wud need to go up a few hundred percent since 2004 to be anyway near normality..
SeanBM 35 | 5,808
14 Feb 2010  #16
Milky you are in Ireland which has the second highest minimum wage in the EU, after Luxembourg.

And has one of the most expensive property markets in the world

(wranked)11 Ireland Dublin 9,069Dollars

In 2004 it was about 40 cent per hour i think.

Nope the minimum wage for 2004 after tax was 602,77 per month, divided by 4 (to get week divided), by 40 to get hour and you are left with 3.76 PLN

minimum wage 2010 is 984,15 per month (do the same math) 6.15 per hour.

Minimum Wage
pl.wikipedia.org/wiki/P%C5%82aca_minimalna
Avalon 4 | 1,068
14 Feb 2010  #17
The biggest handout of all are government owned apartments.

Then get ready for a lot more government handouts!!!!
The is going to be a new EU law/regulation that will force EU countries with substandard housing to build more social housing, especially in rural areas that have been ignored in the past.

Follow the link below. I personally think that this is a good idea.

europarl.europa.eu/oeil/FindByProcnum.do?lang=en&procnum=CO D/2009/0105

I hate the EU with a vengance, but this is one of the better policies and it should be implemented as quickly as possible.
As SeanBM states, there is plenty of land within a 30 min drive from the centre of the cities and with the new infastructure being built, it should be possible to buy a new apartment or house from around 2,500-3,000 PLN m2

convex

living with mom and dad....

Nothing wrong with this if you have enough space, or, perhaps as the parents get older, they should put them in a nursing home for £3,000.00. a month, just like the UK, and if they have no money or assets that the government can make them sell, they would still end up in a home at the taxpayers expense.

What is so wrong about looking after the people who gave you life and kept you until you reached adulthood. Thats one of the reasons I love the Polish people so much, the respect that they give to their elders. The family is everything, not a burden to bear.

pantsless

Most older Poles still have their apartments from communist times

Exactly as I have said in previous posts. Built during communist times to a very poor standard.
What happens when these "concrete blocks" have to be replaced?
I do not have the answer to these problems, but, I know that "wishing" does not solve them.
convex 20 | 3,978
14 Feb 2010  #18
The is going to be a new EU law/regulation that will force EU countries with substandard housing to build more social housing, especially in rural areas that have been ignored in the past.

It's a good idea in theory, in practice, you will end up with ghettos outside of the cities. Do you know of any successful government run low income housing projects?

What is so wrong about looking after the people who gave you life and kept you until you reached adulthood.

There's nothing wrong with that, as long as you have the space to do it.

What happens when these "concrete blocks" have to be replaced?

When do they need to be replaced? Panelaks aren't collapsing around us.
SeanBM 35 | 5,808
14 Feb 2010  #19
In Ireland affordable housing has worked well according to my friends that have bought.
convex 20 | 3,978
14 Feb 2010  #20
From the site:

Most affordable homes are in private developments. Usually, a percentage of all houses or apartments in a private development are made available to be sold as affordable homes. These are sold at a discount to other houses and apartments in the development.

That usually works, but building low income estates usually doesn't
delphiandomine 83 | 17,625
14 Feb 2010  #21
As far as spending such a large percentage of income on a mortgage, the Scandinavians don't do it, nor do the Germans, French...

Germany has quite a low percentage of home ownership I believe, as renting is far more common there. The French also rent, but if I remeber rightly, there's some sort of social housing scam that's universally accepted there.

Scandinavia is an odd example - unlike Brits, living in a flat there is normal and accepted practice for families. The success of commie block building there is one reason that I think property prices are quite low - as well as having far more land than they know what to do with.

In Ireland affordable housing has worked well according to my friends that have bought.

The Keyworker scheme seems to work allright in the UK too. But don't get me started on the scam that is shared ownership...

Built during communist times to a very poor standard.

Actually - I would rather put my money into some communist flats than into newbuilds. The building quality of anything post-1990 is absolutely shocking - dnz on here can tell you a rather wonderful story about the crack in his old flat, and how his new place is almost brand new and is falling to bits already.
jonni 16 | 2,485
14 Feb 2010  #22
Most older Poles still have their apartments from communist times

Yes, and there's a lot of people with more than one flat, where people have bought a new flat and not sold their old one. The article didn't say how any of those people planning to buy already had somewhere that they were planning to keep.
convex 20 | 3,978
14 Feb 2010  #23
Germany has quite a low percentage of home ownership I believe, as renting is far more common there. The French also rent, but if I remeber rightly, there's some sort of social housing scam that's universally accepted there.

We're talking about the half that have mortgages. The percentage of their income that goes to pay the mortgage is much lower than that of Poland.

Scandinavia is an odd example - unlike Brits, living in a flat there is normal and accepted practice for families. The success of commie block building there is one reason that I think property prices are quite low - as well as having far more land than they know what to do with.

With regards to living in a flat, most of Europe thinks that way. Regarding the blocks up north, they're of better quality than the low rise blocks that are being built here :)
Honest George 1 | 105
14 Feb 2010  #24
From my experience with Poland alot of people live like the Waltons..

Quite right, and the sad thing is that the middle generation ( ie. the 40+ ) are still going to college to study for better qualifications, thinking this will put their world to rights, only to find in the long run that its been a waste of time, because everyone else had the same idea. Theres just not enough jobs to go round.

Poles are on a merry-go-round to nowhere,

What is so wrong about looking after the people who gave you life and kept you until you reached adulthood.

They have no choice, but to live this way, they have to get off that merry-go-round.

How ? ........ Those that have something in Poland are generally the ones that have worked abroad.

So to cap it off, yes " Apartments too expensive for poles " is a correct statement.
pantsless 1 | 267
14 Feb 2010  #25
Hand outs a plenty. Heres a typical scenario. First find a job with a umowa o pracy, anything really that pays decent. Show up the first day, then 'surprise! Im pregnant' and never show up again, of course you cant be fired. Go on maternal leave where the company pays your full salary, after giving birth, you can extend it for 2 years with ZUS paying what, 80% of your salary. Meanwhile get the 1000zl from the government for having a baby, then sign up to a bunch of charities for poor mothers, and if you can spin it, have your doctor write out never ending zwolnienie lekarskie. And of course moan to your parents, your daddys parents and all of your family and friends, my god, its a solid gold mine.
Harry
14 Feb 2010  #26
Go on maternal leave where the company pays your full salary, after giving birth, you can extend it for 2 years with ZUS paying what, 80% of your salary.

That sounds very much like somebody I once had the misfortune of working with. Apparently in the six years she'd been with the company she had worked a total of eleven months. Meaning that for most of that time she'd been milking ZUS for more than ten grand a month!
Neil63 6 | 57
14 Feb 2010  #27
Nope the minimum wage for 2004 after tax was 602,77 per month, divided by 4 (to get week divided), by 40 to get hour and you are left with 3.76 PLN

minimum wage 2010 is 984,15 per month (do the same math) 6.15 per hour.

Actually it should like this:

602.77 per month x 12 months divided by 52 weeks in the year and then divide by 40 hours per week = PLN 3.48 per hour.

The other way only accounts for 48 weeks in a year
SeanBM 35 | 5,808
14 Feb 2010  #28
Go on maternal leave where the company pays your full salary

Is that not "Sick leave", the first two weeks of which are paid by the company then ZUS pay the rest?

after giving birth, you can extend it for 2 years with ZUS paying what, 80% of your salary.

Isn't maternity leave 5 months?
I have not heard of any 2 year paid extensions.

Apparently in the six years she'd been with the company she had worked a total of eleven months. Meaning that for most of that time she'd been milking ZUS for more than ten grand a month!

Is that really possible?

Actually it should like this:

Good point.

Edit*

According to this
Parental leave - maluchy.pl/artykul/45
you can get an extension but you do not get paid for it.

And they say if the income of the family per person (add all incomes and divide by number of family members) exceeds 548 zł per month, the claimant is not eligible.
pantsless 1 | 267
15 Feb 2010  #29
Is that not "Sick leave", the first two weeks of which are paid by the company then ZUS pay the rest?

Maybe I mixed them up, whatever

Isn't maternity leave 5 months?

Yes

I have not heard of any 2 year paid extensions.

See, heres the problem. You are thinking like an honest moral tax paying citizen. These are not "extensions" in any way, it is pure kombinowanie. Sick leave, then use up your last years paid vacation days, then a rehabilitation leave, then go on an unpaid holiday for a month, again go on sick leave, repeat ad nauseum

Read this article:
gielda.onet.pl/dwa-lata-bez-pracy-ale-z-pensja,18726,3048143,1,ne ws-detal
Arien 3 | 721
15 Feb 2010  #30
Apartments too expensive for poles

I'm afraid it's the same everywhere throughout Europe, for all the younger people atleast.

:S


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