The BEST Guide to POLAND
Unanswered  |  Archives 
 
 
User: Guest

Home / History  % width posts: 626

Terrible past for the Jews in Poland?


Ironside 50 | 11,056
17 Mar 2013 #181
the Jewish family was so angry,

So, they saved their live and they were angry? Ungrateful gits.
Grzegorz_ 51 | 6,161
17 Mar 2013 #182
My father remembers his family hiding a prominent Jewish family during the war. He even wrote a glorious story about it, through the eyes of a young boy. He didn't include a post script though. After the war over, when his mother contacted the Jewish family, now returned to prominence, the Jewish family was so angry, they would not even open their door, or have anything to do with them.

OK so you provided us with several stories, contradicting to one another... so the world is not black or white... there are some good and bad among both Jews and Goys... yes, I know that...
f stop 25 | 2,513
18 Mar 2013 #183
they could just take away their "gold" and kill them

with comments like this, it's clear that your knowledge of those times comes mostly from the movies.
Maybe this will make it clearer: many Poles, as long as they were getting paid, considered the risk worth it. Once the payments stopped, the risk became unacceptable.

You also seem to have no clue why the Jewish family was so mad at my father's family after the war. Think hard.
Nickidewbear 23 | 584
18 Mar 2013 #184
It's true. People are just cliquey. Jews and Poles are just another example of cliquey people. Welcome to reality!

Some Jews are cliquey, but most of us are just trying to stick together and survive.
Ironside 50 | 11,056
18 Mar 2013 #185
with comments like this, it's clear that your knowledge of those times comes mostly from the movies.

With comments like yours one has to wonder how you are you able to find your way from point A to point B.

Maybe this will make it clearer: many Poles, as long as they were getting paid, considered the risk worth it.

I mean you would engender life of you and you all family for some gold? I think it unlikely. IF and that a big IF some people would do that - so what? Did they help or not?

Once the payments stopped, the risk became unacceptable.

Really? I mean you implying they would be kicked out right? Well I don't think it would have been so easy as you make it sound.

You also seem to have no clue why the Jewish family was so mad at my father's family after the war.

Well it is your father tell us. I'll hazard a guess, they had to pay for accommodation more than they liked, probably expected a free ride.

There are bad people be it Poles or be it Jews. Most people are just confused as your story confirm regardless of their ethic or religious creed.

I could tell you about a Jew who hidden by member of the underground during German occupation as soon as Soviets came helped them to hunt down his benefactors - he got what he deserved - many like him did not.

So what?

Edited by a mod
yehudi 1 | 433
18 Mar 2013 #186
("stupid peasants talked into by the Catholic clergy" etc.).

No one said "stupid peasants" but you. In my opinion, people were manipulated, whether they were peasants or business owners in towns. And they were manipulated by other Poles. This is not to say that they didn't have grievances, but that the grievances were exploited by the ruling classes to deflect criticism from them and focus it on the Jews.

Peasants were manipulated all over Europe in one way or another for centuries. That's why they were peasants. I'm not saying "Poles are stupid" like you think I am. I am saying that peasants, who were kept uneducated and uninformed were easy to manipulate by people in power. The manipulators were no less Polish than the peasants. This is true for Russia and Ukraine too. You're right that the Polish examples I gave were not about the peasants. I said from the beginning that my "analysis" wasn't specifically about Poland, and applied more to Ukraine. There I think it was more peasant anger that was deflected toward the Jews, but not only.

The point of my comments were not to make fun of Polish peasants at all, but to say that Yerrik's statements (that Jews were given extra privileges over Poles) was anachronistic and malicious.
Des Essientes 7 | 1,291
18 Mar 2013 #187
Could it be from later on that the documentary is referencing? Could you both be right, but not talking about the same time periods?

Yes billpawl, the privilege that the Jewish elders of Bransk had in denying Gentiles the right to live in the town center of Bransk does date from the time after the partitions, but since Harry is wrong to claim that this privilege never existed then he cannot be right. Harry uses the false dichotomy fallacy in the following statement:

So we are left with four possibilities

Yes, we have established that; however there are four theoretically possible explanations for that statement (as outlined above).

Who is this "we" you are speaking of Harry? None but yourself is pretending that your four possibilities are exhaustive. Why are you using the plural "we" to put forth this fallacy? Perhaps you are using the "royal we", H.N.R.I..........hhaha!

By the way, the "Hahahaha!" adds nothing to this discussion and suggests a very disrespectful attitude.

You find laughter suggestive of disrespect. Others, without a huge chip on their shoulder, may see it as an expression of amusement, and it certainly is amusing to watch the purveyor of logical fallacies put in his place.

So to say that Jews had priviliges or advantages over other Poles is an anachronism.

Yehudi doesn't understand what "anachronism" means. Just because people were born into their respective social groups in medieval times in no way makes the privileges enjoyed by one group over another somehow "unreal" by modern standards.
Nickidewbear 23 | 584
18 Mar 2013 #188
Yerrik's statements (that Jews were given extra privileges over Poles) was anachronistic and malicious.

I agree. In fact, we often had to become Anusim to get extra privileges; and even then, we were questioned. In my family, the Andrulewiczes became Anusim first, though some did convert back or (if you will) revert (however you'd like to put it).
kondzior 12 | 1,245
18 Mar 2013 #189
What "terrible past"? Without Poland, jews would be mere shadow if their contemporary selves.

Since jews faced persecution in western Europe and Commonwealth offered them rights (first coming from XIII century!) and freedom of religion (since XVI century any and all religions were tolerated, and even before then persecution was unheard of) they fled there en masse, creating the biggest and most influential community ever (not counting USA). There were millions of them, they were merchants, artists, soldiers and even some rose to held titles and become aristocracy!

The unfortunate demise of the Commonwealth in XVIII century came too late to change anything. Jews already were strong, educated, living in cities and quite affluent too. And its those jews that created the elites of jewish community later. Dont believe me? When Kneset voted what official language of Israel is going to be Polish lost by few votes, current president of Israel was born in Poland as were some of his predecessors.

I do not know anything about Russian jews other than that they were brutally persecuted in XIX century (word 'pogrom' originates from then), but I can bet that they were not jews from western Europe as Polish ones but Khazars - Khazars adopted judaism and probably migrated or were conquered by Russia.
Nickidewbear 23 | 584
19 Mar 2013 #190
Khazars adopted judaism and probably migrated or were conquered by Russia.

Where do I begin with your glossing and revisionism but there? Some of us (like me) are indeed descended from Khazarim, but the majority are not.
yerrik 1 | 35
19 Mar 2013 #191
yehudi: "Yerrik's statements (that Jews were given extra privileges over Poles) was anachronistic and malicious."

Right. Because Jews never do anything bad ever ever ever. And anyone who might offer even a slightly different perspective has malicious intentions.

By the way, how were the statements I had posted anachronistic? Do they have an expiration date?

Harry: "Is this really what we want PF to be, a place where people cross-post things from Stormfront? Seriously? That's the image of Poland you want to be projected across the world?"

As I have stated in one of my previous posts, just because other
sites/ organizations/ individuals use quotes from the source I have
used (I. Shahak) does not mean that the author himself is
associated with them. I suppose you didn't take that into your
consideration and instead have chosen to poisen the well.

For example, if a communist quotes passages from the New Testament,
does that automatically then mean that the New Testament is now
communist? Apparently, according to your logic it does.

If you read about Shahak's life, which you haven't, you will get a
very different picture. But hey, discrediting someone by calling
them a Neo-Nazi or of course an "Anti-Semite" seems to be a method
you've employed in discrediting someone.

The post I had made, which was understandably deleted by the mods,
was to illustrate that many Polish Catholics had a terrible past.

If it was Christians in that excerpt were in the place of the Jews,
you would complain that Jews were barred from those positions.

Nickdewbear: "Some Jews are cliquey, but most of us are just trying to stick
together and survive."

There it is. Cliqueness and sticking together can be, and in this case very much are, the same thing.
jasondmzk
19 Mar 2013 #192
Right. Because Jews never do anything bad ever ever ever. And anyone who might offer even a slightly different perspective has malicious intentions.

Who says Jews never do anything bad, "ever ever ever"? What's your "different perspective"? That they do something bad always always always? Don't pretend you don't have malicious intentions, it's insulting. You can't go on for this long about one subject in such a slanted manner and then ask us not to believe our own lying eyes.
legend 3 | 664
19 Mar 2013 #193
I don't get any negative tones from what yerrik is saying. The only ones who seem to see this is more Jewish people like Nicki and Jason (yerrik I believe said he had some Jewish ancestory btw, if I am wrong delete this post plz). He is being neutral which is a good thing.

You have to admit his tone is FAR from what a real anti-semite would say in such a conservation.
Nickidewbear 23 | 584
19 Mar 2013 #194
The only ones who seem to see this is more Jewish people like Nicki and Jason (yerrik I believe said he had some Jewish ancestory btw, if I am wrong delete this post plz). He is being neutral which is a good thing.

Would you expect us to be neutral about Anti Semitism, whether it is Jewish or gentile?
Harry
19 Mar 2013 #195
the privilege that the Jewish elders of Bransk had in denying Gentiles the right to live in the town center of Bransk

Would that be the alleged privilege that you have been repeatedly asked to provide evidence of but have failed to do so? Yes, that would be the one.

You have repeatedly claimed that an American Jewish film-maker stated that the Jewish elders of Bransk had the right to forbid Gentiles from living in the town center. That claim is nothing more than a lie.

You find laughter suggestive of disrespect.

As it happens, I would normally find that a constant repetition of Hahahahahahahahahahahahaha! while simultaneously spitting out a thesaurus and making mistakes with basic English to be more than suggestive that a poster is somewhat drunk. I say 'normally' because obviously you don't post here under the influence, do you.

The post I had made, which was understandably deleted by the mods,
was to illustrate that many Polish Catholics had a terrible past.

Yes, and? Why do you come here and post the bleeding obvious? First you tell us that people who have desirable skills earn more than people with less desirable skills and now you tell us that some Polish Catholics had hard lives. Perhaps you would like to share with us your thoughts about water (i.e. it is wet)? Or your incisive commentary on oxygen (i.e. life without it is more than a bit tricky)? Or are those topics not discussed on Stormfront?
jasondmzk
19 Mar 2013 #196
In Des's mind, shtetl were straight outta Fiddler On the Roof. Jews had no private fiefdoms, whatsoever. Shtetl were entire villages made into a ghetto. Of course a gentile wouldn't want to be caught "conspiring" with Jews, and would get a letter or some such saying they had business to conduct there. There was no "permission" to be given.

A shtetl in Konskie.
kondzior 12 | 1,245
19 Mar 2013 #197
Well, the opinion of Jew status in Eastern Europe comes from watching pop culture movies e.g. Fiddler on the Roof and A Serious Man.

Polish jews were never peasants. Simply because they couldnt/had difficulties owning land. Thus they were burghers and merchants mainly, ranging from big bankers to small time artisans. Since christians were forbidden to loan money with interest jews did this (or moors in Spain). Since Commonwealth of Poland and Lithuania glorified rural life and elite of the nation was rural jews made up up to 80% of some cities.

Secondly jews were usually educated people: could read and write. This is the influence of their religion.

Simply speaking jews were always merchants and artisans, they had an advantage of tradition over their christian counterparts. Besides since they had not their country they maintained connections with each other as diaspora - thus creating a network of contacts. Needed to trade with another city? Why, here is Your friendly neighborhood jew who knows another jew right there. For a meager price he can help You...
Des Essientes 7 | 1,291
19 Mar 2013 #198
You have repeatedly claimed that an American Jewish film-maker stated that the Jewish elders of Bransk had the right to forbid Gentiles from living in the town center. That claim is nothing more than a lie.

No, Harry you are the one that is lying. I never claimed that a Jewish-American filmaker stated this fact about Bransk. A Polish historian in a film produced by a Jewish-American filmaker stated this fact. Your claim that I have "repeatedly" stated otherwise shows the forum, yet again, that you are delusional.

As it happens, I would normally find that a constant repetition of Hahahahahahahahahahahahaha! while simultaneously spitting out a thesaurus and making mistakes with basic English to be more than suggestive that a poster is somewhat drunk.

How about poster like you that repeatedly lies like a rug and posts logical fallacies? Are you drunk on booze or just drunk on resentment towards others who speak the truth about Polish history? Weren't you just suspended for three months for accusing another poster of being drunk? Yes you were. Will you ever learn?

In Des's mind, shtetl were straight outta Fiddler On the Roof.

Jason, I have never seen "Fiddler on the Roof" because I despise musicals. Your claim to know the contents of my mind is stupidly presumptuous.

Of course a gentile wouldn't want to be caught "conspiring" with Jews, and would get a letter or some such saying they had business to conduct there. There was no "permission" to be given.

Jason, if a Gentile wanted to reside in the center of Bransk, in the 19th Century, then he had to receive permission from the Jewish elders of Bransk. This permission that the Polish historian spoke of, in the documentary Sztetl, was for residency, not for merely for conducting business.
Harry
19 Mar 2013 #199
I never claimed that a Jewish-American filmaker stated this fact about Bransk. A Polish historian in a film produced by a Jewish-American filmaker stated this fact.

You have repeatedly stated that the documentary made the claim. Care for me to link to those statements?
Nice of you to finally admit that it was a person quoted in the film who made the claim but why are you being untruthful about that man's profession? He is described in the film as "someone who worked in the town hall" and "vice mayor".

pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontline/shtetl/shtetlscript.html

Jason, if a Gentile wanted to reside in the center of Bransk, in the 19th Century, then he had to receive permission from the Jewish elders of Bransk. This permission that the Polish historian spoke of, in the documentary Sztetl, was for residency, not for merely for conducting business.

Sadly, not even the vice mayor makes that claim in the film. He says quite specifically " If a Pole wanted to live there, he had to be interviewed by the Jewish community board." Nothing about permission being needed. Oops: looks like you're busted yet again. Nevermind. Better luck next time.

Weren't you just suspended for three months for accusing another poster of being drunk? Yes you were.

Actually, no. Do feel free to ask your friend to forward you the PM in question.
Des Essientes 7 | 1,291
19 Mar 2013 #200
You have repeatedly stated that the documentary made the claim.

The documentary made the claim in that a historian featured in the documentary made it.

Care for me to link to those statements?

I don't care.

He says quite specifically " If a Pole wanted to live there, he had to be interviewed by the Jewish community board." Nothing about permission being needed.

Hahahahahahaha! Harry, you really are clowning now! Do you honestly believe that these mandatory interviews were not about the granting of permission to live in the center of Bransk? If not then why require them for prospective residents?

Des Essientes: Weren't you just suspended for three months for accusing another poster of being drunk? Yes you were.
Actually, no. Do feel free to ask your friend to forward you the PM in question.

Harry, you accused a poster of being drunk on the main forum and you were suspended. A moderator had previously warned you to stop trolling in that manner. Your suspension was not the result of a "PM". I would like you to know that I reported your obnoxious slur against said poster and reminded the moderator of his promise to suspend you. It worked! For three months this forum was free of your lies and your logical fallacies.
Harry
19 Mar 2013 #201
The documentary made the claim in that a historian featured in the documentary made it.

Please be truthful: the man in question was "someone who worked in the town hall" and "vice mayor". You are of course free to keep claiming that he was a historian.

Do you honestly believe that these mandatory interviews were not about the granting of permission to live in the center of Bransk?

One presumes that if the vice mayor had wanted to say that gentiles needed permission in order to live in the centre of Bransk, he would have said that gentiles needed permission in order to live in the centre of Bransk, just as you claim that he said. Unfortunately, he did not say that.

However, one thing that he did say after viewing the film

The history of the Jews in Bransk encompasses approximately 60 years (1880-1942), when they were the majority in the town. Your movie creates an impression that Jews were dominating for 500 years.

pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontline/shtetl/reactions/ zbyszeklett.html

So for 60 years Jews were in the majority in Bransk and for hundreds of years Jews were not allowed to live in the town. I wonder why you wish to focus attention on the decades and not on the centuries.

I would like you to know that I reported your obnoxious slur against said poster and reminded the moderator of his promise to suspend you. It worked!

How very interesting. Unfortunately there is a rule against posting PMs in open forum and so I can't post it here; however, I was told by a mod that my suspension was imposed by a mod other than the one you mention. Perhaps you might like to get your story straight?
Des Essientes 7 | 1,291
19 Mar 2013 #202
the man in question was "someone who worked in the town hall" and "vice mayor". You are of course free to keep claiming that he was a historian.

He is also a historian and he was interviewed in the documentary because of all the research he has done regarding the history of town of Bransk. He may not be a professional historian but he is a historian nonetheless. Herodotus didn't get paid for his historical research either, but he is nonetheless considered a historian. Harry, you are grasping at straws and it is hilarious! Hahahahahaha!

One presumes that if the vice mayor had wanted to say that gentiles needed permission in order to live in the centre of Bransk, he would have said that gentiles needed permission in order to live in the centre of Bransk, just as you claim that he said. Unfortunately, he did not say that.

Hahahahaha! He said the following:

If a Pole wanted to live there, he had to be interviewed by the Jewish community board.

The readers of this forum, that are not insane, can infer, from the above statement, that the Gentiles subjected to this mandatory interview were indeed required to receive permission from the Jewish Community Board before being allowed to move into the center of Bransk, otherwise the interview wouldn't have been required.

So for 60 years Jews were in the majority in Bransk and for hundreds of years Jews were not allowed to live in the town. I wonder why you wish to focus attention on the decades and not on the centuries.

Hahahahahaha! So my citing this interesting fact about the power granted the Jewish Community Board in Bransk is an attempt to "focus attention" away from the centuries! How paranoid are you? Do you really believe that my daring to relate this interesting fact about the history of Bransk is an Anti-Semitic plot?

How very interesting. Unfortunately there is a rule against posting PMs in open forum and so I can't post it here; however, I was told by a mod that my suspension was imposed by a mod other than the one you mention. Perhaps you might like to get your story straight?

What mod did I mention? My story is as straight as an arrow unlike your hilariously serpentine illogic.
Harry
19 Mar 2013 #203
Herodotus didn't get paid for his historical research either, but he is nonetheless considered a historian.

How appropriate that you offer us as a historian a man noted for recording that people saw things which they could not have seen, for making up quotes and for generally inventing things. I do hope that you don't regard those things as being desirable for historians to do.

the Gentiles subjected to this mandatory interview were indeed required to receive permission from the Jewish Community Board before being allowed to move into the center of Bransk, otherwise the interview wouldn't have been required.

Strange how you keep claiming that they needed permission when even the vice mayor that you offer us as a source makes no mention of permission. Do you have any proof that the interview was a 'pass/fail' type affair? Sorry, I forgot that you don't.

The readers of this forum, that are not insane,

I seem to remember that you were told that if you again make references to people's supposed mental health problems, you'd be banned. Shall I PM the mod in question?

the power granted the Jewish Community Board in Bransk

And what power might that be? The alleged power to permit gentiles to live in Bransk, i.e. one that you still can't give us any proof of and even the source which you cited doesn't support?

Strange, isn't it, that there is vast amounts of proof that for hundreds of years Jews were not allowed to live in Bransk but you draw our attention to the town with an unsupported claim about a few decades. I do wonder why you might want people to think about the supposed misdeeds of Jews.
Des Essientes 7 | 1,291
19 Mar 2013 #204
If the obligatory interviews with the Jewish Community Board that were required for Gentiles requesting permission to move into the center of the town of Bransk were just a formality, that had no bearing upon whether of not said Gentiles would be allowed to move into the center of Bransk, then why were they mandatory? People that are not insane will infer that these interviews were indeed held to decide wether or not said Gentiles would be allowed to move to the center of town.

I seem to remember that you were told that if you again make references to people's supposed mental health problems, you'd be banned. Shall I PM the mod in question?

Please "PM" the mod. All of the moderators here are sick of your ridiculous antics. I am sure that this mod will have a good laugh at your paranoiac assumption that my reference to sane readers is worthy of suspension.
Harry
19 Mar 2013 #205
If the obligatory interviews with the Jewish Community Board that were required for Gentiles requesting permission to move into the center of the town of Bransk were just a formality, that had no bearing upon whether of not said Gentiles would be allowed to move into the center of Bransk, then why were they mandatory?

Given the past history of Gentile-Jewish relations in Poland (you are, I trust, familiar with the word 'pogrom'), one might well think that Jews in Poland had good reason to know which of their neighbours displayed anti-semitic tendencies and which did not.
Wroclaw 44 | 5,385
19 Mar 2013 #206
Please "PM" the mod. All of the moderators here are sick of your ridiculous antics. I am sure that this mod will have a good laugh at your paranoiac assumption that my reference to sane readers is worthy of suspension.

you might find that a mod will suspend one or both of you just for the sake of peace and quiet.
yerrik 1 | 35
19 Mar 2013 #207
Harry: "Yes, and? Why do you come here and post the bleeding obvious? ...Or are those topics not discussed on Stormfront?"

I know you prefer to call me Neo-Nazi and/or Stormfronter to compensate for your lack of argument.

It actually isn't as obvious as you seem to think. Most Polish Catholics did have difficult lives since most of them were serfs (aka slaves.) Jews were fortunate enough not to have to be serfs. And then some.

It's not about desirable skills. It's about a group of people which acts and thinks as if it were one organism, in which its members are extremely loyal to one another, yet keep Gentiles either out or on a lower level. That's not a skill. That's just bullying.

kondzior: "Well, the opinion of Jew status in Eastern Europe comes from watching pop culture movies e.g. Fiddler on the Roof and A Serious Man.

Polish jews were never peasants. Simply because they couldnt/had difficulties owning land. Thus they were burghers and merchants mainly, ranging from big bankers to small time artisans. Since christians were forbidden to loan money with interest jews did this (or moors in Spain). Since Commonwealth of Poland and Lithuania glorified rural life and elite of the nation was rural jews made up up to 80% of some cities."

No one could own land except for nobility and royalty, who were the minority. Everyone lived on their land. Catholic serfs (85-90% of the population) were the lowest eschelon. They were the ones with the terrible past.

"Although the case is more problematic, choices by Jews as a conscious subjects also played an imoportant role int he organization of their economic activities. They were not moneylenders or merchants simply because they were forced to by the dominant non-Jewish powers; since ancient times they preferred those roles to others, for example, that were tied to the land or that required heavy manual labor."

-Lindemann, Albert. Esau's Tears: Modern Antisemitism and the Rise of the Jews. Cambridge University Press, 1997. p. 17
Wroclaw 44 | 5,385
20 Mar 2013 #208
yerrik,

rather than post the thoughts of others....... why don't you try posting your own.

it is a discussion forum and as such it's the poster's opinion that counts.
radical - | 21
20 Mar 2013 #209
Nickidewbear:

Would you expect us to be neutral about Anti Semitism, whether it is Jewish or gentile?

How can jews be anti-semitic if jews see themselves as semitic?
jasondmzk
20 Mar 2013 #210
youtube.com/watch?v=ZRUjy1Dhx-k

Just like Allan West and Clarence Thomas can be racists.


Home / History / Terrible past for the Jews in Poland?
BoldItalic [quote]
 
To post as Guest, enter a temporary username or login and post as a member.