Destruction of Ukrainian churches in Poland in 1938

OK final question, it is what I will call the African test, as Africa finds itself most often in this category.

If your people ie. people of Ukrainian heritage would find themselves on Polish territory, like some do, or if the Polish borders were somewhat further east than they are now, would you disagree with the proposition that they would have a slightly higher standard of living, greater opportunities and more political freedom than people in the Ukraine today.

If you agree, would you begrudge them this fact, would you prefer that they had less political freedom and less opportunity? And would your what I would describe as 'African pride-pride driven by emotion and not rationality' prevent you from celebrating that they find themselves in Poland and not the Ukraine?

I notice that there is an increasingly greater amount of Ukrainians looking for work in Poland, I notice that you find yourself in Poland so the proposition of greater well being would be quite hard to refute.

Try to answer the questions directly do not divert to other topics, I do not ask the question out of malice I ask it because it drives my whole debate, I believe in the greater well being of all people regardless of nationality, if you choose not to answer the questions I will have the answers to my questions regardless. So for instance does the Ukrainian minority in Poland have a higher standard of living than their people in the Ukraine?

By now nearly a quarter of a milion.


If he doesnt reply ill post some pictures for a nice shiny comparison, suffice to say an average ukrainian in ukraine lives like a bloody squatter.

Wellbeing should be the deciding factor in this argument, I am a firm believer in the prosperity of all Poles and Ukrainians:)

Of course, I would. What kind of question is that? Would you disagree with the proposition that if Germany and Ukraine had common borders, Poles would have had higher standards of living than those who live in Poland now or better to say those that emigrated for better jobs and put tiles in the different toilets throughout the Europe or rip their ar*ses on roofs earning daily bread? I worked with tens of Poles like that, side by side, and I know what was life like for them. Are those Poles or millions throughout the world living "high standards" of life? Of course, not. So, why don't they come back home and dissolve Polish borders and give Germany the land since Germans will definitely raise Polish standards to the level you won't need to put tiles in the WC in some foreign country in order to provide decent living for your family.


I don't think that I am diverting from the question although before posing a question like that I usually answer the same question directed to myself if asked by you. You definitely haven't done that. Now, having questions which you should have asked yourself before asking me, try to answer them and come back to me with the original questions if you would still be interested in posing them :)


Does Polish minority in Germany have higher standards of living than Poles in Poland? Do Polish minority in Germany emigrate to the USA to put tiles in the washrooms like millions of Poles from Poland do?


It is a chain and people always move where the prices are better. Poles move to the UK and Spain, Ukrainians - to Poland, Czech republic, Portugal; some other people to Ukraine; some other people to the countries which people left for Ukraine, which people left for Poland, which people left for the UK. If people find better to live in some other country, then there is an embassy of that country and one can apply for visa and go there, become a citizen, create a family and live there. If someone wants to live in his own country instead of going through the sh*t every immigrant in this freaking world goes through, then that person doesn't go to the foreign embassy. Simple as that. If you are so interested in raising your life standards and live in a country which tolerates people's sexuality and doesn't have Radio Mariya religious fanatics from the Middle Ages, then I would recommend becoming a part of Holland, great country with one of the highest life standards and long history of tolerance, as compared to Poland. Wouldn't you agree?


Absolutely. Poland should make a vote on that one tomorrow.


I would like to hear them. Also, if you would be kind to answer mine along the way as they are in line with your original questions.


Haha, you are more pathetic loser than I thought.


Me too. I believe in prosperity of both. Ukraine will be celebrating its 19th anniversary of Independance on August 24th. A lot was gained during this short time, a lot was lost, but Ukraine moves forward. As regarding to Poles in Ukraine historically and the "high standards" they brought during the occupation, here is some statement from the 1st Ukrainian president and great historian of the beginning of 20th century M. Hrushevskyj:


en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_the_Ukrainian_minority_in_Poland

So, thank you very much. Let's prosper as we did and if you really want some high standards of living, I hope Holland won't be totally against some chunk of Baltic seashore. Go ahead.

P.S. Ukraine has NO article "the" in front of Its name.

OK I am glad you made some effort in answering the question and I will endeavor to answer yours Consecutively, I kind of knew you would bring this up.

1. German interference in Poland is why Poland finds itself in the situation that it does, you would remember that when they undertook to divide Poland, Poland after the constitution of the 3 May had arguably the most enlightened system of government in Europe. This means that it was divided by nations with a relatively backward system of government reliant on autocracy. one only needs to read what Frederick the Great thought on would happen to Poland if the constitution was unopposed.

So the Prussian policy was to deliberately keep Poles and Poland as poor as possible, why should the Poles submit themselves to that?

So the Ukrainian analysis does not apply to this situation, As the Ukraine was in no such position.

2. You mentioned the Ukrainians in Galicia, you would know that that was the result of the poor administrative capacity of the Austro-Hungarian empire, under the Polish constitution all Poles would have similar rights including the peasants. As you know Poland was the only country in Europe in which the nobility voluntarily abdicated some of their rights in favor of the common folk-according to Edmund Burke

So it seems that we finally have an answer, you would rather your people lived in Poverty and oppression rather than belong to the Polish state simply because your pride stands in the way.

It is the same with Africa whose leaders would like to see the deaths of hundreds of their own people just to see one white man humiliated.

Yah and this is what the Ukrainians did to the Poles.

135 of torture and cruelty used by terrorists OUN-UPA, the Polish population of the Eastern Borderlands

The following methods of torture and cruelty are only examples and do not cover the full set, used by terrorists OUN-UPA methods of killing - Polish children, women and men in agony. Ingenuity of torture was rewarded.

Crime against humanity committed by the Ukrainian terrorists could be examined not only historians, lawyers, sociologists, economists, but also psychiatrists.

If there's a group of people more of a pathetic tragedy then the Poles its the Ukrainians. At least they don't kiss ass to the people who murdered them in the millions.

Pardon that was Frederick William II of Prussia not the Great.

Another good example of Prussian policy was the tax on the vistula trade, a policy which enriched the Prussians and made the Poles poorer.

Further more was not the bad administration you talk about the result of nobility primarily of Ukrainian blood who only spoke Polish? the Poles treated the Ukrainians very well, they even made a Ukrainian prince Michal Korybut Wisniowiecki their king, you would be well acquainted with the deeds of his father.

Was not the instability in the Ukraine the result of the activities of the Cossacks, who are lionized in Ukrainian culture?

Was not the Ukraine freed from the Tatar yoke by Lithuania which later formed the same country with the Poles?

did not the Poles fight valiantly to stave of the Ottoman menace for the Ukraine?

Aren't you being just a little bit mean spirited and unfair, perhaps you should learn to understand a little more and condemn a little less:)

further more:

Did not Poland try after its resurrection to hold the Bolsheviks at bay from the Ukraine, despite the wayward inclination of the local population?

Did not Poland lead by example through solidarity?

Is not Poland now fighting to bring Ukraine back into the fold, championing its membership prospects in the EU

Valiantly trying to sever the apron strings linking it to Russia and hoping to bring it into NATO, despite the painfully slow attempts in the Ukraine to seize the initiative

Remember the Bucharest summit when Poland tried against the inclinations of Germany and opposition of Russia to fight Ukraine's corner and entry into NATO?

And all you can respond with is pettiness, Poland like a mother holding out its hand to its wayward Ukrainian child, turning the other cheek and all it gets is your snide comments. And yet she persists because a mother never abandons its child however wayward it might be:)


Or did I understand you right you think a Ukrainian of Polish nationality has less rights than a Ukrainian living in the Ukraine?

If so i would suggest you are painfully unaware of the political situation of your countryman.

It seems you fail the African test:)

which you failed to mention has failed premise. Africa is not a country, but a continent with a different ethnic make up and a very complex history, hardly comparable to anything. therefore this test would produce false results and even if I don't answer your question, you:


therefore, regardless of the fact that indeed your test is founded on the false premise, you would still be able to draw conclusions, which would amount to speculations. I am not biting on this one:)

Since we are on the importance of logic I think that the issue of "false dilemma" also applies to your test:
The logical fallacy of false dilemma (also called false dichotomy, the either-or fallacy) involves a situation in which only two alternatives are considered, when in fact there are other options. Closely related are failing to consider a range of options and the tendency to think in extremes, called black-and-white thinking. Strictly speaking, the prefix "di" in "dilemma" means "two". When a list of more than two choices is offered, but there are other choices not mentioned, then the fallacy is called the fallacy of false choice, or the fallacy of exhaustive hypotheses.

False dilemma can arise intentionally, when fallacy is used in an attempt to force a choice ("If you are not with us, you are against us.") But the fallacy can arise simply by accidental omission—possibly through a form of wishful thinking or ignorance—rather than by deliberate deception ("I thought we were friends, but all my friends were at my apartment last night and you weren't there.")

When two alternatives are presented, they are often, though not always, two extreme points on some spectrum of possibilities. This can lend credence to the larger argument by giving the impression that the options are mutually exclusive, even though they need not be. Furthermore, the options are typically presented as being collectively exhaustive, in which case the fallacy can be overcome, or at least weakened, by considering other possibilities, or perhaps by considering a whole spectrum of possibilities, as in fuzzy logic.

Now, can we go back to the topic of this thread, or you will still try to divert the discussion away from it?

Do yous seriously think that no churches were built for hundred(s) of years, and none under Tsarist rule? Or did I understand you wrong? Around year 1920, there were three types of Orthodox churches in Poland:

- 'Ancient' Orthodox churches (as you call them),
- Orthodox Churches built by Tsar
- Orthodox churches that were former Uniate or Roman Catholic churches.


Polish encounters, Russian identity, David L. Ransel, 2005.

12 times more Uniates than Orthodox followers in Polish-Lithuanian Commonwealth, hence it could be some 10 -12 times more Uniate churches + Roman Catholic churches. During tsarist rule, the proportion of churches and believers was disturbed. Even in regions with Catholic majority, Catholics had several times less churches than Orthodox e.g. Tomaszów district: 56 284 Catholics, 42 921 Orthodox, 12 Catholic churches, 66 Orthodox churches. Not to mention that many of those Orthodox 'believers' were former Catholics who were forcefully converted to Orthodox faith.


I wanted to show an example of russification (#158) and included two pictures of the Church in Warsaw
pl.wikipedia.org/wiki/Katedra_Polowa_Wojska_Polskiego_w_Warszawie
One picture presenting the Catholic Church before Russification and the other one - the same church after Russification. Apparently you thought that the Church is still Orthodox temple to this day (you didn't notice that the second picture was old, actually more than century old).



The church in question was transfered into Catholic Cathedral in 1919, and I already posted something about it.
Only two Orthodox churches were left untouched in Polish capital. Do you know how many other were destroyed or converted into Catholic churches? Were all 'Ukrainian' churches destroyed or given back to Catholic faithful? No! So your divagations make no sense.


Everyone knew about the independence? And by independence you mean Nazi protectorate?


If there are better sources than wikipedia than why not use them?


That quote was about autonomous Subcarpathian Rus/Carpatho-Ukraine!!!! Here are fragments from the book:
rusyn.org/polcarpathoukraine.html
Carpatho-Ukraine under Voloshyn's government became a tool in the hands of OUN activists, and even more so it was used by Nazi Germany for its own purposes. In Carpatho-Ukraine itself an authoritarian regime was set up and characterized by:

(1) a single-party system;
(2) the adoption of a Ukrainian nationalist ideology as an official yet unconstitutional means of struggle against anyone with different political views, which permittedinternment without trial at a camp in *Dumen;

(3) the establishment of a paramilitary organization, the *Carpathian Sich, which implemented by force the generally unpopular decrees of the Voloshyn government;
(4) the abolition of an independent judiciary.


And explanation of this:


O. Subtelny, A Ukraine, 2000.

It also strikes to me as unnatural that the western supposedely more europeanized part is actually the poorest.What is the explanation for that?Austrohungary's fault?

Nathan:
great historian of the beginning of 20th century M. Hrushevskyj:

judging from his quote he was flying pig not historian, he should have found himself in the Guinness Book for putting so many lies in two sentences!

Polish occupation is a myth - as for Lwowskie and Podole is Polish land and if Ukrainian doesn't like that, they should move to |Ukraine !


yeah!

Damned Austrohungarians.

Of course, everyone new. And certainly he needed protection of some force since Hungarians were waiting at the border just waiting to get "Fass!" order. And this is exactly what happened a few days later when the Hungarians entered the Carpatho-Ukraine.

Poles executed Ukrainian soldiers fighting in the Carpatho-Ukraine. Pathetic Slavic bastards.
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Carpatho-Ukraine

Augustin Voloshyn perfectly knew that the left-overs of Czechoslovakian troops won't be able to hold long against the Hungarians. I am surprised this fact bothers you. It is called diplomacy, not hot-headed suicidal mission.


Was Augustin Voloshyn a legally elected head of the mentioned autonomy within the Czechoslovakia or not? Yes, he was. And Czech army was protecting him when the Hungarians under conscent of Nazis occupied the given territory. Otherwise, he would have been arrested.


You avoid this and I see why. This is the second time I am posting it for you.


How was it possible if 170 years earleir Uniates as a word haven't existed? If you have read on Cossacks uprising, which "surprisingly" started around the time of Brest Union of 1596, then the picture will become more clear as to why there was such huge unnatural discrepancy in believers.


No, but minimum 210 were destroyed, buurnt, taken apart and material sold to Poles to build homes on Ukrainian farmer's lands. I don't see where I divagate. I am again interested why these two were left untouched in the middle of your country while Polish government destroyed hundreds of Ukrainian churches in Volyn'?


So what tool was it exactly? What was going on in Carpatho-Ukraine during the leadership of Augustin Voloshin?



And here is to your lies as to the one-party system:


en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ruthenians_and_Ukrainians_in_Czechoslovakia_(1918-1938)

As one can clearly see there were multiple parties, not ONE as you falsely claim, but at the very least 5 parties with different political agenda. So your lies is completely out of place.

Regarding Dumen internement camp:


Yes, I have read this book:
books.google.pl/books/about/Encyclopedia_of_Rusyn_History_and_Cultur.html?id=waAUAQAAIAAJ&hl=en


Well, I wouldn't agree with O. Subtelny completely as elite was not lost, but diminished. The elite that left and constantly fed by Ukrainian peasants kept Ukrainian culture alive through the centuries until 18th century were it went through the Renaissance. I agree though that Catholicism was attractive, but not as religion, but as a source of multiple interesting discoveries and literature written exclusively in Latin. This was something that attracted nobles. The heritage of Roman empire and works by Catholic scholars of Middle Ages were something to be drawn to, no doubt. Polish culture as such and mentioned after the dash only signifies that, since the major flow of the Western culture went through Poland, it might seem as a clash of two cultures. But in fact it wasn't a clash between Polish and Ukrainian cultures, but between the one of Catholicism, undergoing Renaissance at that time (Da Vinci, Michelangello, Rafaello, St. Peter's Basilica, Newton,...) and the Eastern Orthodox (deteriorating after the fall of Constantinopole in 1453 and its main Orthodox center).


Ukraine is not specifically interested in Peremyshel and Holm regions to make a move. But if you insist, well, someday your wish might be granted ;)

No it is not, you are an extremely perceptive individual, ever thought of teaching geography?

Nevertheless many African countries find themselves in the same situation especially those formally government by the British Empire. I should know I lived in a few of them.

aphrodisiac: therefore, regardless of the fact that indeed your test is founded on the false premise, you would still be able to draw conclusions, which would amount to speculations. I am not biting on this one:)

of course you are not,you would rather engage in silly semantics and avoid the issue at all cost. I've noticed you failed to answer the other questions, would that be because they are irrefutable?

That is what I mean by having an answer to my question without you even answering it:)

you know my father's family has a very typically Ukrainian surname and that's because his ancestors came from the Ukraine. and I 'am very grateful that they saw fit to get Polonised, and thank goodness for the Polish eastern civilizing mission.

What complex history?You mean they don't remember who ate whom?

so if Africa is not a country, therefore the premise in your test is false, but I can understand that since you lived in Africa, the point of reference would be useful to you. It has no use for me, but I can see your point in approaching the topic in a rational way.


This is why I did not answer them, since you only wanted to look at the situation from the point of economy.


semantics are not silly, I could have said that about your test, but I wanted to pointed out that, besides being a fallacy, you only wanted to discuss the issue from one point of view.


I would not say that Polonization had anything to do with civilization in a broad sense, but you are allowed to make such a conclusion.

Of course it did. And you yourself are the best example: that's why you were born in Poland and not in Ukraine.

You should all be germanized anyhow...:)

Oh shut up:) if not for Poles you would live in one of 27 or so Germanic states!


Well, since only your view is right one ...

Slavs are proto-germans after all...

if that was true, why are you an exception to the rule?

OK Aphro i would like you to adress the following thesis on my part.

When Poland entered Ukraine in the early 14th century Ukraine was a desolate wasteland with last vestiges of civilisation huddling around the very few cities, the ruthenian princess warred with each other and against constant tartar rides.

Poland brought medicine, metalurgy, schools, political stability and military protection, under polish rule both the Ruthenian and Polish populations thrived, thanks to Poland tiny poor towns like Lwów turned into grand metropolis, without Polands protection and management the region would have never developed and the ruthenian/later ukrainian people would simply destroy each other/be enslaved by Tartars.

So Poland not only brought civilisation but actually saved Ruthenians from extermination, would you agree?

I have not a drop of Ukrainian blood in me so what exception are you talking about? You simply are dodging my point: your parents saw some advantages to live in Poland and not in Ukraine. Why are you so defensive? Every country in the world borrowed something - culturally, economically, politically - from other countries; there is no shame in this. That's what development is all about. Countries who don't - look like tribal Afghanistan.

Is it possible that the Nazis were feeding UPA Amphetamines? I don't know how else these barbaric actions could be explained.

You said that I am civilized because I was born in Poland. So were you, but judging by your conduct on PF I cannot say the same about you. I guess we have different views re what is means to be civilized. My remark went right over your head.


You are assuming things. My parents never wanted to live in Poland. Their parents were forcefully relocated in Vitstula action in 1947 anf could not return for years because there was a ban implemented on such movement for years by the Polish government. I don't know any Ukrainian family who was happy by being relocated. They gained nothing, but persecution for years in Poland. They were successful, because they were hard working people, they would have been successful anywhere in the world.


defensive? NO. In your eyes not praising Polish action against Ukrainian minority during those times is being defensive. I am just telling how it was. Patronizing Ukraine and Ukrainians is not a stand I will accept, as much as it might help some Poles to cope with their inferiority complex. I don't feel inferior to anybody therefore I have no need to bash Polish characteristics, although knowing them well, I could have. Ukrainians are more concern with their country and the newly gained freedom then with the Polish claims to get back their lands. Nobody is really concerned with that anymore. Ask Nathan. I am just saying how it is.

I like how you ignored my points aphrodisiac.

I did not. I would have to do some educated research first:) and that may take me a couple of days. I have a life too. You have to wait.

Soki, in a meantime why don't you provide some evidence for you thesis, so it is not another empty claim. You went to uni, so you know you would not get away with simply stating the thesis.

On the other hand why the fok to do the footwork, you claimed it, you defend it. Then I will refute it:).
So get to work - chop, chop lol

Are there any Poles who chose ukrainization?

Got wikipedia? Type in Ruś Halicka and Kazimierz Wielki, there's your history lesson.

Yes, this dark page continues till today coz still too many Poles prefer to whitewash our cultural genocide on Ukrainians in the pre war period, at the same time pointing out the Ukrainian nationalists` massacres of the Polish population during WW2.

In another thread I asked a question which remained unanswered:

Yes. Now tell us why they were so cruel.

Why did Ukrainian nationalists turn into cruel murderers who raided Polish settlements in Volhynia region and brutally killed dozens of thousands of Polish civilians who lived there???

tbc