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Destruction of Ukrainian churches in Poland in 1938


Sokrates 8 | 3,346
3 Aug 2010 #91
Vetala Wołyń and the policies of polish goverment are tightly connected.

You have to remember that as early as 1938 when Bandera murdered his predecessor ukrainians were openly voicing their desire to murder Poles, the polish policies were a soft way of supressing this murderous movement nothing else.

To understand why Poles attempted to suppress ukrainian nationalism in its monstrous barbaric form we need to show what ukrainian nationalism and their national identity means.

A German or a Pole would fight for their freedom against soldiers, a ukrainian would win his freedom by impaling a child or scalping a teenage girl while her mother watched bleeding out from her wounds from cut off breasts.

This was the kind of monstrous barbarians that Poles kept supressed, ukrainians have no self restraint, no culture, they were and still are people driven by animalistic rage and jealousy, they're the have-nots of the region and desired what Poles had built for themselves.

Kill the Poles and take the fruits of their labor was the ukrainian motto and it is neccesary to show exactly what kind of savages the Poles were attempting to control.
POLENGGGs 2 | 150
3 Aug 2010 #92
you people can read english, look up Northern Ireland for once
Sokrates 8 | 3,346
3 Aug 2010 #93
Speaking of hundreds of churches that ukrainians burnt

All thats left of a polish church burned by ukrainians.

Drastic pics coming.

A polish mother and her little child murdered, the mother was killed with bayonets while her little daughter had a broken jaw and a caved in skull, most likely killed with a mallet.

Murdered polish family of 3 including a child, notice the ropes used for extremely painfull method of strangulation.

A murdered polish man, the wounds on the hand are from an axe, an odd facial wound comes from him having an eye gouged out while still alive, ukrainians at their best.
Ironside 51 | 11,338
3 Aug 2010 #94
Why do you keep bringing up the events in Wołyń

Well, many Ukrainians weren't loyal to the polish state, their terrorist organization killed minister and were responsible for :
O zamieszkach inspirowanych przez Ukraińców Józef Piłsudski, ówczesny premier, wypowiadał się następująco: „podpaleń, sabotaży, napadów, gwałtów w Małopolsce Wschodniej nie wolno traktować jak jakieś powstanie, unikać rozlewu krwi, natomiast stosować w razie dobrowolnego czy niedobrowolnego popierania zamętu przez ludność, represje polityczne, a gdzie to pomoże- kwaterunek wojskowy, ze wszystkimi ciężarami związanymi z nim. Sama obecność wojska uniemożliwi zamachowcom terroryzowanie ludności.

No, state can tolerate such a situation !

As to churches - it was seen as action to reverse results of many years of forcible removing of Polish culture and element by Russia .

Ukrainian terrorists were supported by German state.
OP aphrodisiac 11 | 2,441
3 Aug 2010 #95
No, state can tolerate such a situation !

and the Polish state obviously did not, after renouncing The little Treaty of Versille, which obliged them to threat all the ethnic minorities equally. This way Polish government could implement racist religious tactics against those minorities.

quote:

According to the treaty Polish government declared its support for "total and complete protection of life and freedom of all people regardless of their birth, nationality, language, race or religion" (art. 2) and religious tolerance (art. 7 which stated that "difference of religion, creed, or confession shall not prejudice any Polish national in matters relating to the enjoyment of civil or political rights, as for instance the admission to Public employment, functions and honors, or the exercise of professions and industries"). Provisions of the treaty "were obligations of international importance and were guaranteed by the League of Nations". They could not be changed "without consent of majority of the League of Nations Council" (art. 12). National minorities could direct their complaints to the League of Nations Council. Difference of opinions "in legal or actual matters" between Poland and any of the western powers or any of the members of the League of Nations Council, which would result from provisions of the treaty was to have an international character (art. 12).

The treaty was signed by Polish representatives at Versailles (Roman Dmowski, Ignacy Daszyński) on 28 June 1919, the same day as the main Treaty of Versailles (hence it is known as Little or Small Treaty of Versailles. Polish parliament (Sejm) ratified the treaty on 31 July 1919; it was implemented on the 10 January 1920. Poland renounced it on the League of Nations' forum in Geneva on the 13 September 1934.

As to churches - it was seen as action to reverse results of many years of forcible removing of Polish culture and element by Russia .

so the Russians are to blame for this one?

Ukrainian terrorists were supported by German state.

in 1938? What terrorists do you have in mind.
Sokrates 8 | 3,346
3 Aug 2010 #96
A rare and schoking picture of polish victims of ukrainian crimes. A child in the centre among murdered villagers.
Ironside 51 | 11,338
3 Aug 2010 #97
and the Polish state obviously did not,

good, it is Polish land - anybody can thrive there after they get this one right !
Ukrainians had and have problem with it - should had move to soviet Ukraine - much better I gather !

o the Russians are to blame for this one?

Are you talking about blame ? I thought you said is pure information value thread !?

in 1938? What terrorists do you have in mind.

Organization of Ukrainian Nationalists look it up !

After preliminary meetings in Berlin in 1927 and Prague in 1928, at the founding congress in Vienna in 1929 the veterans of the UVO and the student militants met in Vienna and united to form the Organization of Ukrainian Nationalists. Although most of its members were Galician youths, its first leader was Yevhen Konovalets and its leadership council, the Provid, was composed mostly of veterans and was based abroad.

the OUN accepted violence as a political tool against foreign and domestic enemies of their cause. Most of its activity was directed against Polish politicians and government representatives. Under the command of the Western Ukrainian Territorial Executive (established February 1929), the OUN carried out hundreds of acts of sabotage in Galicia and Volhynia, including a campaign of arson against Polish landowners (which helped provoke the 1930 Pacification), boycotts of state schools and Polish tobacco and liquor monopolies, dozens of expropriation attacks on government institutions to obtain funds for its activities, and some sixty assassinations.

The rest you can find !???
Sokrates 8 | 3,346
3 Aug 2010 #98
and some sixty assassinations.

Thats still not that bad, given that murdered Poles were adults, later they'd kill some 40.000 children and 210.000 adults, all civilians.

I guess murderding 60 people and robbing some banks is lightweight for an ukrainian.
vetala - | 382
3 Aug 2010 #99
The relations between Poles and Ukrainians in interwar Poland reminds me a lot of the relations between Israelis and Palestinians. In both cases we have people who occupy lands on which the majority of the population wishes for their own state, said population is suppressed and subject to discriminatory measures and responds by turning to extremism and terrorism.

If you think that Poland was right in using violence against the Ukrainians for their "disloyalty" to the Polish state, then I assume that you also support the war in Gaza, don't you?

And of course, how could you not support Germany's Kulturkampf? Or Russia's punishment for the Polish rebellions? Those damn, disloyal Poles!
OP aphrodisiac 11 | 2,441
3 Aug 2010 #100
good, it is Polish land - anybody can thrive there after they get this one right !

that is correct and that is why minorities rebelled, even though Poland initially claimed to protect those minorities by signing the The little Treaty of Versille.

Quote:

According to the treaty Polish government declared its support for "total and complete protection of life and freedom of all people regardless of their birth, nationality, language, race or religion" (art. 2) and religious tolerance (art. 7 which stated that "difference of religion, creed, or confession shall not prejudice any Polish national in matters relating to the enjoyment of civil or political rights, as for instance the admission to Public employment, functions and honors, or the exercise of professions and industries"). Provisions of the treaty "were obligations of international importance and were guaranteed by the League of Nations". They could not be changed "without consent of majority of the League of Nations Council" (art. 12). National minorities could direct their complaints to the League of Nations Council. Difference of opinions "in legal or actual matters" between Poland and any of the western powers or any of the members of the League of Nations Council, which would result from provisions of the treaty was to have an international character (art. 12).

source: en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Little_Treaty_of_Versailles
---------
How do you explain the renouncement of said Threaty. My interpretation is: Poland became a country, on the condition (among others) that it will respect minorities within its territory, and then renounced it in order not to be bound by those conditions. Sell out.

Organization of Ukrainian Nationalists look it up!

I have never come across such term used for OUN- please use correct terms in order to avoid confusion next time.
Sokrates 8 | 3,346
3 Aug 2010 #101
And of course, how could you not support Germany's Kulturkampf? Or Russia's punishment for the Polish rebellions?

Neither Germans nor Russians ever matched the savagery of ukrainians and both Russians and Ukrainians defeated the polish army, the ukrainians were all the more cowardly because they knew they couldnt fight Poles so they targetted the weak and defencless in the historical 5 minutes when they knew Poland wouldnt steamroll them for their crimes.

Also Palestine belonged to Palestinians, Ukraine belonged to Poles, ukrainians were latecomers to the party not to mention that while Palestinians target civilians they never do it in the way those savages in ukraine did.
Ironside 51 | 11,338
3 Aug 2010 #102
The relations between Poles and Ukrainians in interwar Poland reminds me a lot of the relations between Israelis and Palestinians.

I don't give a darn what it remains you! It could for that mater reminds you your traumatic experiences in Shop Mall !
Gee! I have nothing personally against you but how stupid one can be and absolutely unaware of it!

Think - what is difference between Polish claims and Germans or Israel ?
Thing hard ! Be bright this time - or do not complain latter that Ironside is too harsh to you!

However I support Israel - they should crave a one territory( instead of patches) and give it to Palestinians , rest such incorporate into their state and be done with it - no more killing!

I guess murderding 60 people and robbing some banks is lightweight for an ukrainian.

aperitif I would say before main meal !
OP aphrodisiac 11 | 2,441
3 Aug 2010 #103
Neither Germans nor Russians ever matched the savagery of ukrainians and both Russians and Ukrainians defeated the polish army, the ukrainians were all the more cowardly because they knew they couldnt fight Poles so they targetted the weak and defencless in the historical 5 minutes when they knew Poland wouldnt steamroll them for their crimes.

this kind of thinking got Poles in trouble in Wolyn, where the MAJORITY of population was Ukrainian. The only difference is that POLES are out of Ukraine, in case you did not notice, or you still live in another epoch?

I guess the Polonization did not work after all and you are left with what you are left with. Had Poles threted the Ukrainians on equal basis, Wolyn would never happen, but Poles were too hungry for power, so they are left with the lands they have now. The Polish nationalism had to be contained.
Sokrates 8 | 3,346
3 Aug 2010 #104
this kind of thinking got Poles in trouble in Wolyn. The only difference is that POLES are out of Ukraine, in case you did not notice, or you still live in another epoch?

This kind of thinking you present will get Poles back in Ukraine, you're weak we're strong, we remember Wołyń, pray we dont ever remind you savage peasants the hard way.

The only thing that saved you dirty murdering peasants from our retribution was Moscow, otherwise you'd be in deeper sh*t then you can ever imagine but Poland is still here and getting stronger, Ukraine is also still here and getting weaker so be careful who you're patronizing.

Your grandparents experienced soft justice during Vistula, you might experience hard justice soon enough.

I take it you justify the murder of 250.000 civilians by "freedom fighting ukrainians"? You justify this?

kresy24.pl/showNews/news_id/6467/
MareGaea 29 | 2,752
3 Aug 2010 #105
You're absulutely right, 1938 was the first year when ukrainian nationalism reared its head

The OUN was already active in the late 20's in Ukrainian territory, occupied by Poland, sabotaging stuff in Galicia and Volyn.

>^..^<

M-G (tiens)
Sokrates 8 | 3,346
3 Aug 2010 #106
The OUN was already active in the late 20's in Ukrainian territory, occupied by Poland, sabotaging stuff in Galicia and Volnya.

Yes it was back in the 20s it still wasnt that criminal, its in the 30s when ukrainians decided civilians are game and morality and simple humanity is for the p*ssies.

Poland reacted in a very civil way, army and police arrested, inspected or imprisoned for terrorism but never murdered or tortured, if it was up to me and know what kind of f*cking murderers ukrainians are i'd have the region depopulated.

Even during WW2 polish benevolence towards these savages was evident, Home Army could have easily depopulate Volhynia killing all ukrainians, instead Poles refrained from using ukrainian tactics, apart from few retaliatory attacks ukrainian civilians fell victim only to ukrainians, almost never to Poles.

Looking at it in hindsight i cant really understand why didnt the Home Army just kill the f*ckers as an example and warning, quite frankly if Poles started burning villages too maybe Ukrainians would fear the reprisals, blind violence is the only thing they appear to understand.
Ironside 51 | 11,338
3 Aug 2010 #107
minorities rebelled,

yeah Germans and Ukrainians - but the former had no state, previous statehood experiences and had no means or chance to existed as independent state - not enough educated people.

I guess they would be content to live as Germany dependent state.
Well, rebels get what they deserve you cannot expect for Poland to go along with their crazy claims ?

Poland intitially claimed to protect those minorities

As long as they are loyal - see?

to avoid confusion next time.

confusion as to what - that what their were and proud of it!

My interpretation is: Poland became a country, on the condition (among others) that it will respect minorities

that is your interpretation is not good enough !

respect minorities within its territory

area they are living in ....there no such thing as their territory !

How do you explain the renouncement of said Threaty

The treaty it was an insult to Poland, no other country (Germany) were bound by external rules !They can all shove it !
Nobody is doing something out of charity in politics - where were those "noble" country's when Poles needed them ?
Anyway they all France, Britain and USA had colonies at the time!
Treaty was work of German and Jewish lobby, because they were afraid of reprisals against those minority's by the Polish state or citizens - which itself is insulting !

The Polish nationalism had to be contained.

sure, they are responsible for Volyn massacre! Did someone mentioned Jews ? not yet ? well you are slow today!
M-G that is precious ! Now you should condemn Israel to be credible !
MareGaea 29 | 2,752
3 Aug 2010 #108
Let's see what Wiki says about the Volniya massacre: en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Massacre_of_Poles_in_Volhynia

It also says that a Jeffrey Burds thinks that the ethnic cleansing that took place in 1943-44 had its roots in the above, added with the surpression of the Ukrainian language and forced Polonisation of the area. Seems feasible.

Treaty was work of German and Jewish lobby, because they were afraid of reprisals against those minority's by the Polish state or citizens - which itself is insulting !

Absolute nonsense. Germany was the defeated one after WW1 and would hardly have any influence on any treaty, even at the big Treaty of Versailles they were treated like scum. And the Jewish lobby? Well, there hadn't been any Holocaust at the time, was there? Besides the mass killings of the Jews of Przemysl (or however you write that) by the Russians.

M-G that is precious ! Now you should condemn Israel to be credible !

I know already that I am credible, I don't need to prove that towards the summum of incredibility.

M-G (tiens)
OP aphrodisiac 11 | 2,441
3 Aug 2010 #109
I see.

I guess they would be content to live as Germany dependent state.

guessing is not really what I am after here.

Well, rebels get what they deserve you cannot expect for Poland to go along with their crazy claims ?

I never have.

As long as they are loyal - see?

yes, I see that.

confusion as to what - that what their were and proud of it!

I did not know who you had in mind. You need to be more specific.

hat is your interpretation is not good enough !

do you have another one?

area they are living in ....there no such thing as their territory !

where did they live, in space lol

The treaty it was an insult to Poland, no other country (Germany) were bound by external rules

yah, I can see your point. POland should have never been insulted by signing the Threaty, but it did- why do Poles always insult themselves and they blame it on (as in this case) Germans and Jews? I was not aware that there was Jewish lobby at that time, please try to use correct terms.
Sokrates 8 | 3,346
3 Aug 2010 #110
It also says that a Jeffrey Burds thinks that the ethnic cleansing that took place in 1943-44 had its roots in the above, added with the surpression of the Ukrainian language and forced Polonisation of the area. Seems feasible.

So you think converting a church needs to be answered by impaling an infant child on a pitchfork? Because by your logic Poland should now use the first opportunity to invade Ukraine and wipe out all ukrainians.

If ukrainians saw it justifiable to torture-murder 250.000 Poles for a bunch of churches then we should now seek complete elimination of all ukrainians no?
MareGaea 29 | 2,752
3 Aug 2010 #111
So you think converting a church needs

They also destroyed them. And about that impaling and nailing kiddos to the door and the wall; I haven't seen any proof that this happened, besides the Disney-like drawings from some book you've shown us. Or better: a picture of an open book with a Disney-like drawing. But you have succeeded in your original aim, turning this around, shifting the blame and focus from bad Poles to bad Ukrainians. We're now talking solely about those bad Ukrainians and no longer about those bad Poles. You should congratulate yourself for that.

>^..^<

M-G (tiens)
Harry
3 Aug 2010 #112
If ukrainians saw it justifiable to torture-murder 250.000 Poles for a bunch of churches

The real reason for killing those Poles was that they might have sired, borne or grown up to be things like you. Perhaps somewhat excessive but entirely understandable.
Sokrates 8 | 3,346
3 Aug 2010 #113
And about that impaling and nailing kiddos to the door and the wall; I haven't seen any proof that this happened, besides the Disney-like drawings from some book you've shown us. Or better: a picture of an open book with a Disney-like drawing.

Also the disney like drawings are because the pictures were considered far too drastic for the casual reader, i cant bring myself to browse some of the stuff i was sent, kids tied to a pole with barbed wire or with bellies split open are the least you can find.

In this thread you'll find Poles scalped, without eyes or tongues, a little girl dead with broken legs, women cut apart etc, isnt that enough for you?

I'm sorry i dont really have guts to open some of the folders, ukrainian freedom fighters were just too creative with their victims even for me.

A polish child with a belly torn open, one with face beaten to a pulp, bit excessive for a bunch of churches no? More then 30.000 children will be killed, thousands of them like that or worse, i also provided a picture of a young polish woman brave ukrainians cut in half with a saw.

Thats the kind of revenge they exact for a bunch of churches? By your logic Poland should now seek complete extermination of ukrainians for their crimes against our women and children, yet being civilised we dont.

I'm sorry but there's no logical or moral reason for the savagery ukraininans commited, nothing Poland could do or did justifies the ukrainian crimes.
OP aphrodisiac 11 | 2,441
3 Aug 2010 #114
They also destroyed them.

that was his premise. God forbid Poles would take a blame for anything, always avoiding responsibility for their actions.

Sokrates said:

By your logic Poland should now seek complete extermination of ukrainians for their crimes against our women and children, yet being civilised we dont.

but then he says:

This kind of thinking you present will get Poles back in Ukraine, you're weak we're strong, we remember Wołyń, pray we dont ever remind you savage peasants the hard way.

The only thing that saved you dirty murdering peasants from our retribution was Moscow, otherwise you'd be in deeper sh*t then you can ever imagine but Poland is still here and getting stronger, Ukraine is also still here and getting weaker so be careful who you're patronizing.

Your grandparents experienced soft justice during Vistula, you might experience hard justice soon enough.


so when is the revenge coming? Or this is more rubbish you are able to produce so easily?
Sokrates 8 | 3,346
3 Aug 2010 #115
God forbid Poles would take a blame for anything.

Well will you take the blame for tens of thousands of children ukrainians - your grandparents among them, tortured to death? You're obviously avoiding the topic as much as you can.
MareGaea 29 | 2,752
3 Aug 2010 #116
a bunch of churches

Not only because of the churches, also the forced Polonisation of the area, the surpressing of the Ukrainian language, the forced settlement of some 50.000 Poles and I am sure that there are more things.

And about the grossness of some of the pictures. One gets used to that after seeing hundreds of pics of piles of naked (Jewish) corpses in Auschwitz, Treblinka or wherever, equally tortured and cut in half or decapitated or whatever. There were also pics of horribly tortured and abuse children among them. So I'm not really shocked by them.

God forbid Poles would take a blame for anything

I know. Well at least we've reached the stage that Sokidoki actually admits that there were churches being destroyed by the Poles, whereas he earlier in the discussion even denied that. Perhaps after some more discussion he will admit the other things as well.

>^..^<

M-G (tiens)
OP aphrodisiac 11 | 2,441
3 Aug 2010 #117
You're obviously avoiding the topic as much as you can.

Never have, you are hijacking the thread in order to divert attention from the Polish State Polonization action against minorities in Poland.
Sokrates 8 | 3,346
3 Aug 2010 #118
And about the grossness of some of the pictures. One gets used to that after seeing hundreds of pics of piles of naked (Jewish) corpses in Auschwitz, Treblinka or wherever, equally tortured and cut in half or decapitated or whatever. There were also pics of horribly tortured and abuse children among them. So I'm not really shocked by them.

Jews had it easy MG, yeah i know i shouldnt say that but they did, they went from the cattle train to the gas chamber where a painfull 10 minute death awaited them.

ukrainians murdered Poles in a much much worse way which is inexcusable, i'm sorry but alleged attempts at polonisation are not enough to justify genocide at Volhynia, ukrainians are guilty of unspeakable savagery.

Tell me why didnt Poles murder Germans when they regained independence in 1920? Why Poles in similar circumstances could refrain from barbarism and ukrainians couldnt? I'm sorry but ukrainian crimes are inexcusable and without any justification, any attempt to rationalise them is stretching.
OP aphrodisiac 11 | 2,441
3 Aug 2010 #119
'm sorry but alleged attempts at polonisation

they were not alleged, they were documented., planned, executed.

Jews had it easy MG, yeah i know i shouldnt say that but they did, they went from the cattle train to the gas chamber where a painfull 10 minute death awaited them.

don't cheapen the issue.

I'm sorry but ukrainians crimes are inexcusable and without any justification, any attempt to rationalise them is stretching.

would it be justified if they were killed in a civil way?
Sokrates 8 | 3,346
3 Aug 2010 #120
they were not alleged, they were documented., planned, executed.

don't cheapen the issue

I dont cheapen the issue, Germans were cruel yes but they rarely tortured victims beyond their institutionalised death.

Ukrainians on the other hand commited unspeakably horrible attoricities against Poles of all ages, cutting of breasts of women and salting the wounds for example was frequent.

Another way ukrainian freedom fighters amused themseves was by impaling children on pitchforks and carrying them around for people to see, you know a boast of sorts.

Germans didnt do that, death in the camps was horrible but it didnt even come close to savage attrocities of the ukrainian "freedom fighters".

Also again an important issue here is that all ukrainians were commiting the crimes.

After last of the Poles in a village would be tortured to death ukrainian women and children would move in, everything that wasnt bolted down was stolen, got pics of cheerfull ukrainian kids pulling shoes off a 9 year old dead polish boy and then the village was burned.

Not even Germans did those kinds of things.


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