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Destruction of Ukrainian churches in Poland in 1938


MareGaea 29 | 2,752
31 Jul 2010 #31
Yes MG

Wow, it actually admits :)

Jews were indeed a mainstain in every niche of Polish culture.

So far this little sideway. Back to the topic again.

Destroying Churches is one of the most drastic steps that can be taken in humiliating another ppl. The next step is disqualifying them as human and the step thereafter is genocide.

>^..^<

M-G (had finally enough of fighting and noisy cats in his backyard, so he chased the two fighting toms away)
OP aphrodisiac 11 | 2,441
31 Jul 2010 #32
Don't you think it's kinda odd to see that this dark chapter falls into the same epoch as my thread about Endecja.

possible, Poland suddenly wanted to be mono- cultural and that was part of the bigger plan.

Btw: Aphro is not Ukrainian, but Polish, just like you.

nope, I am as Ukrainian as one can get. I grew up in Poland though.
PennBoy 76 | 2,436
31 Jul 2010 #33
People, who spoke Ukrainian on the daily basis were polonised or were either forced or convinced to convert to Catholic faith.

But that sounds so Dr.Evil lol, not good Polish.
Seanus 15 | 19,706
31 Jul 2010 #34
I think it stems from deep-rooted discontent amongst a lot of Slavs. For all their high-faluted culture, many seem empty and devoid of positive contributions.
Sokrates 8 | 3,346
31 Jul 2010 #35
Y'know i have no idea what you just said Sean, you'd make an ace politician.

Ok i enjoyed my mud slinging now to shed some light on Aphrodisiacs article.

There was an 8 month period in 1938 when more nationalistic elements came to power in Poland and an effort to polonise Ukrainians was undertaken.

Churches were most typically converted into catholic ones or turned into administrative buildings such as schools they were not torn down, Ukrainians were not forced to change faith they were typically convinced via state promotion aka institutional bribery.

After 8 months the effort, including conversion of protestant churches into something else stopped as its total failure was recognised, most Ukrainians did not want to polonise.

It was ceirtanly wrong but far from the barbarism Ukrainians would unleash upon defecless polish civilians later on, today its cited as one of the primary reasons for the crimes but back then it had a local nature so that goes out the window as well.
king polkakamon - | 544
31 Jul 2010 #36
Past forgotten as we say in my country.Just forget about the past.
OP aphrodisiac 11 | 2,441
1 Aug 2010 #37
I am in a search of more sources about this action against Ukrainian churches in 1930s, does anybody have any?. I would like to read up on it more.
Seanus 15 | 19,706
1 Aug 2010 #38
Have you tried Ukrainian sources?
hague1cmaeron 14 | 1,377
1 Aug 2010 #39
Poland was just becoming a nation in the 30's

No it was not, it was recreating its nation big difference!

quote=MareGaea]Poland was just becoming a nation in the 30's [/quote]

No it was not, it was recreating its nation big difference!

[quote=aphrodisiac]possible, Poland suddenly wanted to be mono- cultural and that was part of the bigger plan.
MareGaea:
Btw: Aphro is not Ukrainian, but Polish, just like you.
nope, I am as Ukrainian as one can get. I grew up in Poland though.[/q

No not really, they just wanted all sections of society to be loyal to the state, some did not want to be.

BTW do Ukrainians generally believe that they were better off with the Russians, or in hindsight do they think that sticking to the Poles might have been a better idea?

Incidentally a good history of the Ukraine by Hoffman, which covers the Polish issue.
...

Here is an example of Polonisation
...

Here is an example of Polonisation of Ukrainian children.
...
Bratwurst Boy 12 | 12,993
1 Aug 2010 #40
Just read:

"Getting history wrong is part of being a nation."

Joseph-Ernest Renan (France)

...boy is he right!

he then adds:

"National identities are about sheltering us from the truth. National myths twist the facts of history to fit political needs. And they do so not through a positive evocation of identity but through the denigration of others, through creating hostility and fear."

Nathan 18 | 1,363
1 Aug 2010 #42
Ok, now give me a single source about UPA's brutality in Warsaw. Please, be kind not to avoid the answer like other tongue-flappers. Aphrodisiac tries to show a part of Polish history. What do you mean by history is not present. Majority of things discussed are in the past.

OK, that's fine. Do you want anybody to be held accountable for that crime?

This is a discussion of Polish policy in 1930s. When you discuss Napoleon, do you expect accountability from the French? It is part of your history and Polish state burnt hundreds of Ukrainian churches in 30s. Now Polish community jumps like pathetic bunch demanding return of churches. Rebuild what you destroyed, then raise demands.

Ok while on topic of churches, Ukrainians just recently turned a catholic church in Lwów into a philharmonie.

In 1923 the monastery building was given to the Lviv Polytechnic and in 1927 conservation work was carried out in the complex which continued until the outbreak of World War II, among them the installation of organ produced by the Czech Brothers Rieger workshop.

Under soviet rule the church remained open longer than most others in Lviv until it was closed in 1962. Most of the interior was plundered or destroyed, including the side altars, sculptures and ambo, only the organ and altar have survived today. In 1969 the church building was assigned to the Lviv Philharmony which established an organ concert hall in it.

With the collapse of the soviet union the parish was officially reestablished in 1991 however the church has not been returned yet and at the moment remains the property of the state from which the faithful have to rent it to attend the Holy Mass.

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Church_of_St._Mary_Magdalene,_Lviv

So, Poles may easily rent the church for religious purposes. I bet Ukrainians cannot rent hundreds of burnt by Poles churches. Should we demand from Poland now reconstructing all the churches you destroyed? So we can at least rent?

Whereas in Poland we get arts, sciences, cinematography, customs, architecture and many more, you just proved my point there is no culture flourishing in Ukraine.

I know that for an ignoramus like you names like Oleksander Dovzhenko, S. Paradjanov, Y. Illienko (incredible producer,director and political activist, died last month, rest in peace) won't mean anything, but they went into history not only Ukrainian, but the world's cinematography.

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cinema_of_Ukraine

During the recent years, a new generation of moviemakers arrived. In 2001, the starting art director Taras Tomenko triumphed in the Panorama competition at the Berlin International Film Festival, while in 2003, at the main completion in Berlin the Silver Bear prize was awarded to the film Tram Route #9 by the Ukrainian animator Stepan Koval. Oles Sanin represented Ukraine for Oscar Academy Award in 2003 with his film Mamay.

myukraine.info/en/culture/art/Films/

In 1922 the all-Ukrainian Photo and Cinema Administration, a flexible enough structure, was founded that managed to reconstruct production in Odesa and Yalta, and, in 1928, to put into operation a movie studio in Kyiv, one of the largest in the world at that time, that later became the Olexandr Dovzhenko Kyiv Movie Studio

The Dovzhenko's films Zvenihora, 1928, Arsenal, 1929, and Zemlya, 1930!!! (A chef-d'oeuvre of the world's cinematography), played a special role in the making of the Ukrainian cinematography. His artistic efforts raised this country's film industry to the world level. In 1958, at the World Fair in Brussels (Belgium) the poll conducted among the outstanding 117 movie critics and cinematologist from 26 countries of the world named the latter film among the twelve best films of 'all the times and nations'.

One of my best Ukrainian actors Ivan Mykolaychuk received a Grand Prix for his "Babylon XX" movie. He died at age of 47 and played in more than 30 Ukrainian movies

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ivan_Mykolaychuk

Roman Viktyuk - a world-renowned Ukrainian producer (btw, born in L'viv - yey!).

Regalia
. People's Artist of Ukraine (2006), Honored Artist of Russia. Professor of the Academy of Performing Arts GITIS.
The only director of foreign origin was awarded the International Prize of the Institute of Italian drama of the best embodiment of the Modern Drama (1997). Winner of the Theater Award "Maratea" Center for European Drama (1991). Received the "Kyiv Pectoral" and the award of the Union of Ukrainian theater "Triumph".In the United States included in the category of "50 people in the world that shaped the second half of the twentieth century."

So, there is plenty to learn about Ukrainian cinematography, than flap with your tongue like so pathetically. It is not a bait as you put it. It just shows that morons are abundant.

It's a tragic irony that we are discussing churches here ;)

Read the title of the topic again, please. It is not about naked women some of us are interested in discussing.

Destroying Churches is one of the most drastic steps that can be taken in humiliating another ppl. The next step is disqualifying them as human and the step thereafter is genocide.

In Ukraine, especially at that time it was taking away humanity, because religion was an unalienable part of everyday life, be it physical or spiritual. Traditions, customs, songs, morals were and are in majority based on one's believes. It was part of who you are. And this is not exaggeration. To burn churches, to kick the kids out of schools, to burn libraries, to close universities had only this intention, MG, as you said, to take away humanity.

I am in a search of more sources about this action against Ukrainian churches in 1930s, does anybody have any?. I would like to read up on it more.

Here are some, Aphro; I'll try to look for more.

history-ukraine.livejournal.com/16725.html
nadbuhom.free.ngo.pl/art_1544.html
Seanus 15 | 19,706
1 Aug 2010 #43
Um, I'll start (and likely finish, LOL) with The Pianist, Nathan. I remember reading a section there from a guy who was neutral on Ukrainians.

Nathan, you should know that I'm a big fan of timely punishments and not decades down the line. What happened, happened. Governments can acknowledge it and move on.

I didn't mean 'tragic irony' in that way, Nathan. I was alluding to the lack of Christianity present in the sense of forgiveness. I have no desire to talk about 'goły baby'.
Nathan 18 | 1,363
1 Aug 2010 #44
I remember reading a section there from a guy who was neutral on Ukrainians.

Seanus, what are you talking about?!
I am still patiently waiting on UPA explanation mentioned in my previous post. I don't think you are like Sokrates - the Polish tongue-flapper.

What happened, happened. Governments can acknowledge it and move on.

What acknowledge? This topic is about Poland and its policy in 1930s. I don't ask anyone about apology. When there is topic about Ukrainian insurgents and Polish whining I haven't yet read your post saying: oh, it is past, let's move on. Or why are there so many WWII posts and you say nothing about moving on and forgetting the topic altogether? Let's talk about Lindsay Lohan. Is she still in prison?
Sokrates 8 | 3,346
1 Aug 2010 #45
What acknowledge? This topic is about Poland

Yep and and because this topic is about Poland its unavoidable to discuss the 200.000+ men, women and children murdered by Ukrainians in 1939-45 period, care to comment Nathan?
Nathan 18 | 1,363
1 Aug 2010 #46
care to comment Nathan?

As soon as you have read my post # 83, recognize yourself an ignorant tongue-flapper. Then I would readily waste my time to talk to someone like you who would make easily millions in oral arts.
Sokrates 8 | 3,346
1 Aug 2010 #47
Yes i see you deny the horrible crimes of your people on children and women.

Typical of a uki really.
PennBoy 76 | 2,436
1 Aug 2010 #48
Yes Poles did close down, convert to Catholic, or destroy Orthodox Churches for polonization purposes but during the war Ukrainians "thanked" us for it, so it's even let's move on, 70 yrs. We made Ukrainians and Lithuanians Catholics, Germans made us Catholics.
OP aphrodisiac 11 | 2,441
1 Aug 2010 #49
Here are some, Aphro; I'll try to look for more.

thanks:)

Incidentally a good history of the Ukraine by Hoffman, which covers the Polish issue.

interesting, thanks.

Here is an example of Polonisation

Here is an example of Polonisation of Ukrainian children.

thanks:)

Germans made us Catholics.

really? That is news to me.

I was alluding to the lack of Christianity present in the sense of forgiveness.

good observation on your part, but how do you know if the said people luck it. I merely pointed out to an interesting article, since I read Polish news on daily basis and I know for fact that this particular action is not widely known in Poland.
Seanus 15 | 19,706
1 Aug 2010 #51
Aphro, I think it's because you will see a closening of ties between Ukraine and Poland. Russia and Poland have visibly got closer recently and Ukraine will form a part of it too. Old wounds only serve to jeopardise that process. I know the truth should out more but international relations are in a state of flux and hatchets must be buried.
OP aphrodisiac 11 | 2,441
1 Aug 2010 #52
Aphro, I think it's because you will see a closening of ties between Ukraine and Poland

I think you are confusing two things here: official relationship between the governments and out conversations on PF about the history, one does not exclude the other. Or does it?

Russia and Poland have visibly got closer recently and Ukraine will form a part of it too.

I don't know what closer means.

Old wounds only serve to jeopardise that process.

I disagree and you prove again and again that you don't know the history of either Poland, nor Ukraine, it is like anybody trying to understand Irish vs English. The wounds are very news considering the time frame.

I know the truth should out more but international relations are in a state of flux and hatchets must be buried.

I don't see the connection, since I am just one person who is raising the issue.

May I remind you that I quoted Gazeta Wyborcza from a couple of days ago????? So some circles in Poland are not afraid to discuss it and you are telling me that it will geopardise the relationships between those two countries? Do you read Polish press Seanus? There is lots more.
Seanus 15 | 19,706
1 Aug 2010 #53
I thought you were looking for more coverage or even an admission of guilt, aphro. The Serbian government, for example, apologised for their genocidal actions in Srebrenica.

No, I understand the importance of moving on. By your logic, Poland shouldn't be in the EU alongside Germany due to what their Nazi party did. Oversimplistic, wouldn't you say?

I don't think it'll make for big news. I can read Polish press but I don't. Certain segments of a population will always treat it as more serious than others.

The Good Friday Agreement struck a kind of peace deal. Don't you want peace?
OP aphrodisiac 11 | 2,441
1 Aug 2010 #54
I thought you were looking for more coverage or even an admission of guilt, aphro.

I cannot control what you think. You have this nasty way of coming across as patronizing.

Are you patronizing Seanus? You might not be aware of this, but I really don't want to spend time on such things at the moment. I would like to concentrate on Ukrainians churches.
Sokrates 8 | 3,346
1 Aug 2010 #55
Are you patronizing Seanus? You might not be aware of this, but I really don't want to spend time on such things at the moment. I would like to concentrate of Ukrainians churches.

Ceirtanly lets concentrate on churches in Ukraine: wolyn.ovh.org/diecezja/diecezja.html

Parafia Świętego Macieja Apostoła w Nieświczu, erygowana w 1615 roku. Do parafii należały: Nieświcz, Anatolia, Ceperów, Czaruków, Dziadowiec, Gródek, Horodyszcze, Hryhorowicze, Jeziorany Szlacheckie, Korszów, Marianówka, Podberezie, Ratniów, Rudka, Szprach, Ternki, Uhrynów, Wigurzyce, Wiktorzyny, Wydumka, Zagaje. Parafia leżała w gminie Czaruków, z tym, iż miejscowości wyróżnione kursywą leżały w gminie Połonka. W 1938 r. parafia liczyła 3040 wiernych. Kościół spalili Ukraińcy w początku 1944 roku.

St Maciej parish in Nieświcz, founded in 1615, the following villages were the members of the parish... The church was burnt by Ukrainians in 1944.

Who burned churches in Ukraine? Ukrainians!

Here we have an article about ukrainians attempting to murder a polish priest and burning the catholic church.

Where are all the pictures of ukrainian churches destroyed by Poles? Where are Ukrainians murdered by Poles?

Why am i able to provide dozens of pictures that show ukrainian barbarity, ukrainians splitting open childrens bellys, churches and villages burned by ukrainians, could it be that ukrainians were the only ones commiting attrocities? That Poles never descended to the level of ukrainian barbarism?

Well Nathan and Aphro? The burden of proof lies with you, i've shown plenty of evidence of what lowly barbarians ukrainians are... i mean were, where's the pictures of massacres of ukrainians by Poles?

There's none.
PennBoy 76 | 2,436
1 Aug 2010 #56
Really???

Yes, not by violence or force, Mieszko I married a Czech princess and chose Catholicism, but the actual Christianization of the people spreading the faith teaching the faith to the people was done by German missionaries ( Holy Roman Empire).
Sokrates 8 | 3,346
1 Aug 2010 #57
Ayup, the only polish priests during the first generation were the bishops and a handfull of priesthood.
OP aphrodisiac 11 | 2,441
1 Aug 2010 #58
Yes, not by violence or force,

agree, but we are talking about violent conversion. I don't see the connection.
Sokrates 8 | 3,346
1 Aug 2010 #59
agree, but we are talking about violent conversion.

Do Ukrainians burning polish churches as i have proven repeatedly count as violent conversions or just genocide?

Btw Kiev:
vs
Warsaw:

Someone tell me that Ukraine is flourishing with culture now.
OP aphrodisiac 11 | 2,441
1 Aug 2010 #60
Do Ukrainians burning polish churches as i have proven repeatedly count as violent conversions or just genocide?

Ukrainians never tried to convert Poles, unless you know something that I don't.

Are you saying that Gazeta Wyborcza is lying? Are you saying that Homo Faber -NGO in Lublin is lying, because this is who I am quoting? HMMM......so far you have not been able to refute that 120 Ukrainian churches were destroyed by the Polish government initiative.

Prove me that I am wrong first, otherwise, you effort has been wasted. Oh, well.

I am waiting for you to refute the claim I made in post #1. Please find me sources that it was a lie.

Quoting Seanus:
As for Ukrainian churches being burned, was there a triggering event? It strikes me as odd that they'd just be destroyed for no reason.

I never said that they were all burnt, some were.
Just found this on a historical forum and it relates to the topic discussed:


Home / History / Destruction of Ukrainian churches in Poland in 1938
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