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Destruction of Ukrainian churches in Poland in 1938


MareGaea 29 | 2,752
4 Aug 2010 #151
Well, M-G I wouldn't expect it from you. I cannot say that I agree with all of it but it is impressive.

You're sick.

Sad, adjusting my quote and changing it into sth completely different is just plain proof that you're not capable of discussing with me. Now, don't discuss with me anymore. You're not smart enough to do so. Goodbye Iron, sad little boy.

I've been patient with you enough.

>^..^<

M-G (Iron is a sad mofo)
Sokrates 8 | 3,346
4 Aug 2010 #152
Yes - a lot of Poles seem to forget that the Ukrainians saw the Poles, like the Soviets as enemies

You mean ukrainians saw polish children and women as enemies? Is that why they skinned our women alive and burned polish infants?

Not necessarily losing, but he has succeeded in turning the whole topic upside down, turning it from Church destroying Poles into a discussion about murderous Ukrainian fascist organisations.

They're both intimately connected MG, you cannot discuss about polish policies without mentioning what exactly Poles were opposing and suppressing.

The extent of murder and atrocities commited by ukrainians proves that Poles were absolutely correct in their perception of ukrainians as barbaric monsters, of course there were decent ukrainians but they were a minority.

First ukrainians helped to snuff out the Jews, then they did the same to Poles albeit with incomparable cruelty.
OP aphrodisiac 11 | 2,441
4 Aug 2010 #153
They're both intimately connected MG, you cannot discuss about polish policies without mentioning what exactly Poles were opposing and suppressing.

yes, you can but you have failed to show the connection between those two events. Instead, you brought the attention to Volyn, as if there were only two events in Polish - Ukrainian history. I am beginning to think that you just don't know anything else besides Volyn.
Sokrates 8 | 3,346
4 Aug 2010 #154
yes, you can but you have failed to show the connection between those two events.

You mean between ukrainians murdering Poles and Poles attempting to supress ukrainian terrorism?
Bzibzioh
4 Aug 2010 #155
Looks like you are losing it. Tsk tsk. Where are your manners and self control?

no, I don't like to waste my time on stuck - up ******* got some work to do, other then getting involved in another match with you. Boring and tedious.

prove it by quoting me, although I doubt that you can since your reading comprehension sucks:)

Anything for you, dear.

Avoiding personal remarks about other posters would be a good idea since they add nothing constructive, positive or of factual interest to the discussion, and suggest only a lack of manners or a lack of self-control.

And so you can't claim I did not contribute to your lousy thread - there are some other ideas for your consideration, in case you had an urge to start a new one:The US pushed a peace-loving Japan into WWII. Poland started the war with Germany. Finland attacked Mother Russia. There were only a few hundred thousand Jews in Europe to begin with, so there's no way millions could have been killed. France's irrational behavior aggravated Hitler and caused him to abandon his diplomatic initiatives. Winston Churchill was the ultimate agent provacateur. The Katyn massacre in 1940 of Polish officers was a collective suicide.The Chinese provoked Japan by brutally throwing themselves in front of their tanks. And the Dutch put an embargo on German tulips and chocolates so they got what was coming to them. Oh, and the men on Battaan March were just taking a little jaunt through the jungle for exercise.

Revisionist bs'ers under the guise of history give me a pain in my cute derriere.
Nathan 18 | 1,363
4 Aug 2010 #156
I know it's hard to imagine....

Well, M-G I wouldn't expect it from you. I cannot say that I agree with all of it but it is impressive.

M-G, because of you, I have to wash my underware. Thanks, though :))

history give me a pain in my cute derriere

If you don't like history why don't you go and look more on your derriere instead of drawing your comments from it and wasting PF's space.
Eurola 4 | 1,909
4 Aug 2010 #157
It is sad that Poland and Ukraine had a time in history of extreme violence. The fact is, it did happen and on both sides. Please see the link below. The word 'VoƂyniec' meant something derogatory in my home. Maybe it is because some of my mother's siblings (not her) were born in Eastern Kresy where my maternal grandparents owned a couple of water mills. As far as I remember from some stories they moved back to Poland fearing for their lives. I wish I knew more about my grandparents experience but they died when I was a kid and I lost my parents early too. Based on my mom's total aversion to Ukrainian people tells me that she did not have a happy childhood there.

There many incidents like this one.

bellaonline.com/articles/art67739.asp
Ironside 51 | 11,338
4 Aug 2010 #158
You're sick.

Well, don't you agree with my attitude ? I agree that Poles and Ukrainians issues are no so imminent, nobody dies now !
In case of Israel people are killed daily - your moral compass is right !
However thread topic is about historical issues.

Sad, adjusting my quote and changing it into sth completely different

Oh no ! See, you were writing about something completely different - if you would put in the place of Israel and Palestinians name that of Poland and Ukrainians it would be a absolute gibberish, double Dutch and so on ..because it simply doesn't no fit, history, circumstances. So I realised that you are writing about something else - and bingo!

Fits like a skin !

Now, don't discuss with me anymore.

Well, I'll grant you your wish if you are so afraid to discus issues but I'll comment nevertheless.

You're not smart enough to do so.

that not nice M-G but I understand the pressure you are undergoing - because of your Jewish origin everyone expect you to be smart, let me help you - shmondac is Jewish expression I believe.

Goodbye Iron, sad little boy.

Goodbye MareG, the greatesthypocriteIhaveeverknown, I like you nevertheless, believe it or not I have shed a tear, sad thing thought, enmity over historical issue, well ?!

I've been patient with you enough.

thank you kindly, patients is a virtue seldom seen.

Iron is a sad mofo)

Well, what mofo means ? is that some kind of sophisticated insult ?
hague1cmaeron 14 | 1,377
4 Aug 2010 #159
This thread is far too hysterical for my liking, so let us just stick to the facts.

fact 1: Poland did Polonise the Ukrainians, destoyed orthodx churches etc.

Fact 2: If the Ukrainians in Poland's eastern area did not belong to the Polish sate, they would would have belonged to a Russified Ukrainian state going through purges and starvation. And if you had a chance to reflect on this situation from a historical perspective, and were of right and rational mind and had the choice, there would be no way you would choose to stay in the Russian sphere of influence.

Fact 3: The Ukrainian reaction during the war was most defiantly out of proportion and Extremely cruel.
MareGaea 29 | 2,752
4 Aug 2010 #160
no way you would choose to stay in the Russian sphere of influence.

Maybe they wanted to be part of an independent Ukraine? An independent Ukraine including the Ukrainian territories occupied by Poland?

Revisionist bs'ers under the guise of history give me a pain in my cute derriere.

This sounds weird coming from sb who just told me to be humble. By revisionist bs'ers, I take it you aim at Sokidoki and Ironside? And besides, maybe you should try to add sth to this discussion instead of painting the atmosphere or giving evidence of your disliking of some posters? The latter is namely not really relevant to anybody or anything, you see.

I have to wash my underware

Because of the original post or the changes Iron made to it when quoting it?

>^..^<

M-G (tiens)
Nathan 18 | 1,363
4 Aug 2010 #161
Maybe they wanted to be part of an independent Ukraine? An independent Ukraine including the Ukrainian territories occupied by Poland?

M-G, you understand the issue much better than people who study the history about this issue since early childhood. They are not able to draw simple conclusions by the mere way of putting oneself in the mentioned historical circumstances. Only Poles can be willing to be independent from invaders, others have to choose between bad Russians and sweet like sugar Poles. Ukrainians, in Polish highest IQ minds in Europe, were acting irrationally.

Because of the original post or the changes Iron made to it when quoting it?

Mostly the changes by Iron, but also the way you put it that Polish sarcasm radar failed to pick up the signal. No surprise, but still :)
Ironside 51 | 11,338
4 Aug 2010 #162
They are not able to draw simple conclusions by the mere way of putting oneself in the mentioned historical circumstances. Only Poles can be willing to be independent from invaders

what are you babbling about ?
Of course I can put myself into Ukrainian place!
I have been studying this issue long and hard.
The conclusion:
Fact is that all the territories (where Ukrainians were living) doesn't means that should belong to Ukrainian state.
Specially as there is no other reason why Lwow should belong to Ukraine and when Ukrainians are such newcomers to nationhood.
As I said - in 1918 they were offered compromise but preferred war, when lost they found war fruits to be not to their testes.
However, Wolyn done it for good - you lost all moral right to said lands!
You claim it to be an Soviet act, maybe there were some NKVD agents but main bulk of criminals were Ukrainian Nazi - UPA!

Myth about long occupation by Poland is just that myth!
Bzibzioh
4 Aug 2010 #163
Fact 2

Good point. If Ukrainians complain today that this short stint at polonization was harsh, it looks like a kid's play in comparison to what was happening in almost the same time in Soviet part of Ukraine.

If you don't like history

You can't help yourself, do you. Try for once in your life to win an argument without cheating so someone may take you seriously one day.
Harry
4 Aug 2010 #164
Fact is that all the territories (where Ukrainians were living) doesn't means that should belong to Ukrainian state.

Quite right: Poland signed a treaty committing itself to the existence of a Ukrainian state and then when the Ukrainians were no longer needed, Poland sold that state to the USSR.
MareGaea 29 | 2,752
4 Aug 2010 #165
Well, the Polish army was well equipped back then by the Western Allies and supervised by experienced French generals in order to fight the Bolsheviks, not a make-shift army like that of the Republic of Western Ukraine. Poles can say that they did it all on their own, but I would say it was mainly due to the help of friends that they could win the war against the RWU. I have yet to see them so successful if they hadn't been helped by the West.

Try for once in your life to win an argument without cheating

Try for once in your life to win an argument without personal attacks and actually contributing to a discussion.

>^..^<

M-G (tiens)
Sokrates 8 | 3,346
4 Aug 2010 #166
Poles can say that they did it all on their own, but I would say it was mainly due to the help of friends that they could win the war against the RWU. I have yet to see them so successful if they hadn't been helped by the West.

Their army would be smaller by about 10% if they didnt get help from the West, not much of a difference, they'd still win.

Well, the Polish army was well equipped back then by the Western Allies and supervised by experienced French generals in order to fight the Bolsheviks

Neither is true, French sent only some rifles and the blue army which in the larger scheme of things did not matter that much and french generals proposed strategies that would see Poland fail.

It was only the polish commanders who won the battle.
Bzibzioh
4 Aug 2010 #167
Try for once in your life to win an argument without personal attacks and actually contributing to a discussion.

Try for once in your life to make some sense you piece of a blotting paper.
Nathan 18 | 1,363
4 Aug 2010 #168
Quite right: Poland signed a treaty committing itself to the existence of a Ukrainian state and then when the Ukrainians were no longer needed, Poland sold that state to the USSR.

Exactly. It is nothing of surprise, though. Poland signed an agreement with Czechoslovakia in 1925 too, which it betrayed in 1938 by invading this country.

you piece of a blotting paper.

Again posting your derriere thoughts in here? Stop it, please. Say something intelligent for a change.

their successful offensive halted primarily because of a lack of arms - there were only 5-10 bullets for each Ukrainian soldier

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Polish%E2%80%93Ukrainian_War

So, it definitely mattered as you feared to fight yourself and had to send well-equipped French army. Also lying about bolshevism and Ukrainians to get to use the French looks so low and unhonorable. Again, this is nothing new to Poland.
Ironside 51 | 11,338
4 Aug 2010 #169
Exactly

exactly what ??

Poland signed an agreement with Lithuania in 1925 too, which it betrayed in 1938 by invading this country.

what are you talking about ?some delusions ?
Sokrates 8 | 3,346
4 Aug 2010 #170
So, it definitely mattered as you feared to fight yourself and had to send well-equipped French army. Also lying about bolshevism and Ukrainians to get to use the French looks so low and unhonorable. Again, this is nothing new to Poland.

Nathan Poland was redirecting 120.000 men from Greater Poland anyway, ukrainians were down the creek without a paddle in this war, you lost just like you lost every other war against Poland.

The only time ukrainians win was against women and children, when they were about to face polish armies they, as always failed.

Some of ukrainian victories against unarmed polish civilians: strasznezbrodnie.blox.pl/html

Especially the pit filled with children shows how heroic and noble was the average ukrainian in his struggle for freedom, i mean those polish children were vicious! Especially at 5 years old!

I guess thats why the noble ukrainians killed them using mallets, hammers, sickles, knives and bayonets and piled them into that pit.

But to further show how heroic ukrainians were we cant forget that they formed an SS division fighting for Nazi Germany - heroic and noble SS Galizien who killed only those elderly and children who deserved it!

ukrainian SS.

The remains of polish civilians, proud freedom fighting ukrainian SS must've been proud when it shot people who had no way of defending themselves, question is where was UPA and SS galizien when polish soldiers came back to the eastern provinces? Oh right hiding in the woods.
Bzibzioh
4 Aug 2010 #171
Say something intelligent for a change.

Say something true for a change.

And you are going off topic; open your new thread if you want to discuss Polish-Ukrainian war of 1919. This way this thread will go forever.
Harry
4 Aug 2010 #172
But to further show how heroic ukrainians were we cant forget that they formed an SS division fighting for Nazi Germany - heroic and noble SS Galizien who killed only those elderly and children who deserved it!

Quite unlike the 100,000+ Poles who joined the German armed forces (89,300 of whom later changed sides to save themselves, but only once the war had been pretty much decided).
MareGaea 29 | 2,752
4 Aug 2010 #173
Say something true for a change.

Well at least everybody, except you, is trying to add sth to the discussion. You only deem it necessary to add your personal feelings here, injected with of course your usual insults, where they are totally out of place.

>^..^<

M-G (tiens)
Sokrates 8 | 3,346
4 Aug 2010 #174
Jesus dude you're the last who can make such claims, not only do you run your mouth but quite often fail to back it, stick to the discussion and try not shooting people like you always do.

We're talking ukrainian crimes and polish war of independence, where did that flamewar with bzi came from?
MareGaea 29 | 2,752
4 Aug 2010 #175
not only do you run your mouth but quite often fail to back it

Experience learns me that when I do, you're nowhere to be found afterwards. And about running mouths, I guess we're pretty equal in that respect. Only I don't use as many insults like you do.

where did that flamewar with bzi came from?

Just read back. I didn't start it. It came out of nowhere as bibi's attacks usually do.

We're talking ukrainian crimes and polish war of independence

We were actually discussing the destruction of Ukrainian churches by Poles, see the title of the thread :)

>^..^<

M-G (tiens)
OP aphrodisiac 11 | 2,441
4 Aug 2010 #176
This way this thread will go forever.

that is the whole idea:)
Sokrates 8 | 3,346
4 Aug 2010 #177
We were actually discussing the destruction of Ukrainian churches by Poles, see the title of the thread :)

Dont see any relevant info about ukrainian churches all i've seen in the topic is a lot of pictures of polish churches burned by ukrainians.

Speaking of ukrainian church burning!
stowarzyszenieuozun.wroclaw.pl/sniatyn.htm

Some drawings of polish churches burnt and demolished by ukrainians as well as modern view of a once beatifull polish church left deliberately to rot.

Why are we able to see dozens of pictures of ukrainian atrocities, evidence of destroying polish churches and heritage yet not ONE picture of killed ukrainians or a destroyed ukrainian church?

Why in this entire topic all the evidence seems to point towards ukrainians as the ONLY perpetrators? Could it be that the bulk of the blame and guilt lies on the ukrainian side?

Experience learns me that when I do, you're nowhere to be found afterwards. And about running mouths, I guess we're pretty equal in that respect. Only I don't use as many insults like you do.

When did i insult anyone? Its a bloody lie mate, if anything im one of the most patient posters here.
MareGaea 29 | 2,752
4 Aug 2010 #178
When did i insult anyone? Its a bloody lie mate, if anything im one of the most patient posters here.

Thank you, that just made my night. I haven't laughed like that in quite a while :)

Anyway, I will continue tomorrow as I am turning in right now. Goodnight.

>^..^<

M-G (Buona Notte)
porzeczka - | 102
4 Aug 2010 #179
but these were ignored[11] with Poles claiming that "all Ukrainians were Bolsheviks or something close to it".[12]

Probably inspired by this fact:

Ukrainian peasants made up the vast majority of the so-called Red Army that was led by the Bolshevik commander Antonov Ovseenko and launched against Kiev in late 1918 by the Bolshevik government.

Uniates have never made majority in Ukraine. Why do you make stuff up?

Not in Ukraine, but in Poland (during Interbellum). You failed to understand me.

Read more of Ukrainian history and you will realize that the main national spirit of Ukraine was upheld by Orthodox believers, not Catholics. Ukrainians who fought Poles and Russians in 16th, 17th and 18th centuries were overwhelmingly Orthodox.

I wasn't talking about Polish-Lithunian Commonwealth period.

The Ukrainian Orthodox Church, which in seventeenth century had helped sustain Ukraine's identity during its confrontation with the Poles, had become by the eighteen century a vehicle of Russification.

At the time of the first partition of Poland in 1772, there were some 4.7 million Uniates in the Polish-Lithuanian state
As of 2008, the Ukrainian Greek Catholic Church is estimated to have 4,284,082 faithful
Looks strange, doesn't it? After 230 years?

What about forceful conversion to Russian Orthodoxy? That must have had an effect on the number of Uniats.

In 1794, immediately following the second partition that gave Russia its largest share of Commonwealth territory, the empress began an aggressive crusade to convert the Uniates of the newly annexed territories to Russian Orthodoxy. Upon her death in late 1796, fully half of the Uniate population in the Russian Empire - 1.5 million (primarily in the Right Bank Ukraine) - had officially converted to Orthodoxy, largely through methods of force.

Source: Polish encounters, Russian identity, David L. Ransel, 2005

In the 1770s , over 1,200 Uniate Churches were given to the Orthodox in Kiev region, and after 1793-1795, when the Russian Empire acquired the right bank of Volhynia, and Podolia during the second and third partitions of Poland, 2,300 Uniate churches were forced to become Orthodox.

Source:A history of Ukraine, Paul Robert Magocsi, 1996
However, Ukrainian Uniate church was able to survive in Austrian Galicia.
Sokrates 8 | 3,346
5 Aug 2010 #180
Well the majority of ukrainians indeed supported the Soviet regime and took active part in its attrocities and furthering its interests so polish claims that ukrainians were bolscheviks were quite correct.


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