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Destruction of Ukrainian churches in Poland in 1938


OP aphrodisiac 11 | 2,441
3 Aug 2010 #121
Germans were cruel yes but they rarely tortured victims beyond their institutionalised death.

you are joking, Germans never tortured anybody, that is news to me lol

Germans didnt do that, death in the camps was horrible but it didnt even come close to savage attrocities of the ukrainian "freedom fighters".

Then you know nothing about German camps, which is hard to believe.
So now you are using lies in order to prove your point - how pathetic.

You are running out of options. Still, you have not proved to me that Polish government did NOT respect the Ukrainian minorities, since this is what is thread is ABOUT> lol

I rest my case.

I am done with this topic, since it exhausted itself.
MareGaea 29 | 2,752
3 Aug 2010 #122
Jews had it easy MG, yeah i know i shouldnt say that

No, indeed, you shouldn't. You think it's so much more fun to have your belly slit open without sedation and then they keep you alive, just to see how quickly the wound will fester? And that they will only keep you alive to see how much pain you can endure before you finally kick the bucket? And that, should you survive, they will kill you anyway? I would say practices like that are more than comparable to sawing a kid in two while it's still alive. The majority was gassed immediately, yes, but don't forget the hundreds of thousands that were used for "medical" experiments, the vast majority of them being children and twin-children.

But this is is not a dcik-measuring contest, this is just to say that I'm kinda used to see gruesome black and whit pics of mutilated ppl. Luckily they're not in colour for it would've been more direct, even more gruesome.

>^..^<

M-G (tiens)
Harry
3 Aug 2010 #123
don't cheapen the issue.

Never before seen Sokrates making excuses for his Nazi heroes?
Sokrates 8 | 3,346
3 Aug 2010 #124
you are joking, Germans never tortured anybody, that is news to me

Not the way ukrainians did, for example Germans didnt cut their victims to pieces while they were alive with saws, ukrainians did:

I mean how much more savage can you get? It doenst get more macabre that this, do you call that fighting for freedom ukrainian?

You think it's so much more fun to have your belly slit open without sedation and then they keep you alive, just to see how quickly the wound will fester?

Except that only very few Jews were subject to torture experiments, more then 2/3rds of Poles killed by ukrainians were killed via torture and indeed it was some of the most savage torture in history, far surpassing what Germans did in savagery if not in scope.

But this is is not a dcik-measuring contest, this is just to say that I'm kinda used to see gruesome black and whit pics of mutilated ppl. Luckily they're not in colour for it would've been more direct, even more gruesome.

True that but tbh i'm not used to them, the "disney comic" you quote is based on pictures and thats a bit much for me.
Ironside 51 | 11,338
3 Aug 2010 #125
Absolute nonsense.

absolute ?no! I don't care to prove that point, nevertheless it was insulting (I mean treaty )
and infringement into independent state affairs.

I know already that I am credible,

absolutely not - you are not credible - you can cry about rights, justice, racism and humanism and all that but when it comes to Jews you are 100% side-taker - I don't think you should be giving moral or other advice to others!

I don't need to prove that towards the summum of incredibility.

You don't need to prove that to me, I wouldn't expect it! The readers on the other hand could have some doubts about your standing and credibility.

What does summum means ?
incredibility - really ? Why because I do not view the world your way?Now, that mighty intolerant !

I did not know who you had in mind. You need to be more specific.

OUN

do you have another one?

String by which "old powers" could control or attempt to control "new" states - like Greece, Poland and others !

where did they live, in space lol

area - are you not familiar with this word?

POland should have never been insulted by signing the Threaty

correct !

but it did

political necessity - you as an Ukrainian know nothing about !
In 1918 you choose all and got nothing - but you have easer, you blame Poles !

Germans and Jews?

doesn't matter it is side issue !

I was not aware that there was Jewish lobby at that time

yeah ! American - Jews !

I haven't seen any proof that this happened,

OH ? I'm sure if it was about Jews being victims, you wouldn't need any prove, would
you?!

The real reason

Sometimes you should pause and think before you start flapping the big mug of yours,!
MareGaea 29 | 2,752
3 Aug 2010 #126
the "disney comic"

I said the drawings were Disney-like in that sense that they are the typical propaganda drawings of the day with kiddos with angel-like faces, big blue eyes and so on, hanging on a door. It's sth different than pictures.

Except that only very few Jews

The exact number is not known, but it is estimated at a few hundreds of thousands. So, I wouldn't say it were very few.

absolutely not - you are not credible - you can cry about rights, justice, racism and humanism and all that but when it comes to Jews you are 100% side-taker - I don't think you should be giving moral or other advice to others!

If I am not impartial towards Jews, what does that make you towards Poles? Ah, completely neutral, impartial and honest? HAHAHAHAHA.

The readers on the other hand could have some doubts about your standing and credibility.
What does summum means ?

Most normal readers know that I am a credible person. The smart ones do.

Summum = latin and means the same as Summit, the utmost, the ultimate and so on.
(always glad to educate)
Sokrates 8 | 3,346
3 Aug 2010 #127
The exact number is not known, but it is estimated at a few hundreds of thousands. So, I wouldn't say it were very few.

Yeah and that number is rubbish because even the most famous people like Mengele only managed to work through so many people and like Iron said you're a side taker in this issue, fair enough so am i but it doesnt change the fact of what ukrainians did, why they did it and the "why" does not justify the "what".

They acted in a way not even Nazis did, their actions were born out of sheer cowardice, jealousy and a resentment of a nation thats always been more succesfull then them.
OP aphrodisiac 11 | 2,441
3 Aug 2010 #128
Never before seen Sokrates making excuses for his Nazi heroes?

he is loosing an argument, what else is new?
MareGaea 29 | 2,752
3 Aug 2010 #129
most famous people like Mengele

Mengele wasn't the only one who performed those experiments. He was the most notorious, yes, but not the only one.

like Iron said you're a side taker

He mentioned that in regard to the Jews. And besides, who takes Iron seriously? :)
Ironside 51 | 11,338
3 Aug 2010 #130
Polonization

Sure, there were some short lived attempts of polonization, and I think it shouldn't have happened, however it doesn't change the crux of the matter - it was and should be Polish territory, everyone is welcome as long as they respect it !

Ukrainians didn't wanted compromise but all and more, so they got nothing.
They trusted arms to gain their goal - and their lost!
While Poland were under Nazi and Soviet occupation - they saw their chance and lost for ever chance to claim that justice is on their side !

All attempts on justification of Volyn is only the way of digging your own moral grave!
---------------------------------------------------------------------- ---------------------------------------------------------------------- ---------------------------------------

what does that make you towards Poles? Ah, completely neutral, impartial and honest?

Well, honest when it comes to the facts, also impartial but when it comes to interpretation I'm presenting Polish view - I do not pretend like you to be absolutely impartial and neutral !

Most normal readers know that I am a credible person. The smart ones do.

Above could only flatter insecure ones and not that smart !

Summum = latin and means the same as Summit, the utmost, the ultimate and so on.
(always glad to educate)

thank you !
From my throne of Summum Incredibility I salute you King of Double Standards with one finger salute :D
king polkakamon - | 544
3 Aug 2010 #131
It was german policy in Lvov and Volynia region which had separate Gauleiter from Ukraine.(much more successfull).The Germans decided to help both Ukrainians and Poles to exterminate each other giving deliberately more help to ukrainian side.

Their basic concern was the red army and its guerillas and both UPA and AK could help them discover and exterminate the guerillas or they could do it themselves.On the other hand the red army wanted both UPA and AK reduced in power by the time it entered Galicia and was involved in heavy battles against Germans,UPA etc.
MareGaea 29 | 2,752
3 Aug 2010 #132
Well, honest when it comes to the facts, also impartial but when it comes to interpretation I'm presenting Polish view

The Polish view might need some adjusting here and there. But you're not, I can tell you that.

Above could only flatter insecure ones and not that smart !

Thankfully I am neither.

I do not pretend like you to be absolutely impartial and neutral !

Oh I am neutral. Neutral means you point out all sides good and bad of both sides. And I have pointed out quite a few times the wrong of Israeli politics. Neutral doesn't mean strict obedience to the Polish version of history, which you seem to adapt. But anyway, it's getting a bit boring - there is simply no decent discussing with you, so I will just stop doing so.

M-G (iron is boring)
Ironside 51 | 11,338
3 Aug 2010 #133
The Polish view might need some adjusting here and there. But you're not, I can tell you that.

I'm not - what? I'm not presenting Polish view? Says who Dutch ? speaking double Dutch again are you?

Thankfully I am neither.

don't flatter yourself !

Oh I am neutral. Neutral means you point out all sides good and bad of both sides.

Well, I have no chance to point out bad sides on PF everyone (at last the strong bunch ) are jumping in quest to do it first!

And I have pointed out quite a few times the wrong of Israeli politics.

Really? I didn't notice!Anyway is not only about Israel, for you Jews can never done or be wrong !

mean strict obedience to the Polish version of history,

Its not about version is about interpretation - and unfortunately about facts!
I cannot bend when you get facts wrong !

there is simply no decent discussing with you,

OH? Well, maybe you are not able to discus - but is not fault of mine !!!
Is not that I say - no, no, no .....all the time as you would like to believe, anyway discussion is exchange of views not M-G talks and not the rest nods and admire !

iron is boring)

don't be afraid !
Bzibzioh
3 Aug 2010 #134
The real reason for killing those Poles was that they might have sired, borne or grown up to be things like you. Perhaps somewhat excessive but entirely understandable.

Yes, Harry, those pesky Poles with strong opinions and patriotic fiber are sooo annoying. It's so much better when they are all of mohair berets' mentality cos it's easier to make fun of them.

*another addition to "Harry's finest thoughts and observations" collection*

Most normal readers know that I am a credible person.

Show some humility, at least occasionally, and let other posters decide about that.

Oh I am neutral.

You have no clue what that is, even if it hit you in the head.

[Socrates]he is loosing an argument,

Keep dreaming, girl.
OP aphrodisiac 11 | 2,441
3 Aug 2010 #135
Keep dreaming, girl.

OK mom;)

As for MG- i like his posts because he is rational and does not have to resort to abuse to put his point across, which cannot be said about other posters including you.

Yet, I still have to see your contribution to this thread which are devoid of sneer and contemptuous remarks. You have not presented any arguments besides agreeing with Soki, nor have you attempted to refute my claim.
Nathan 18 | 1,363
3 Aug 2010 #136
Sokrates is a tongue-flapping prodigy; he is working on Masters in Oral Arts at night somewhere on Bzdiszczyn's red lights street. Lots of promises from this young talent.

Also the disney like drawings are because the pictures were considered far too drastic for the casual reader

;) Fantasy land of yours...nothing changes. Are you also into drawing? Amazing.

250.000 Poles

Where did you suck these numbers, Socki? Some source?

Jews had it easy MG, yeah i know i shouldnt say that but they did, they went from the cattle train to the gas chamber where a painfull 10 minute death awaited them.

Pigs like you have easy right now jabbering online about what Jews went through. 10 minutes? I knew you are dumb, but not to that point. And all the atrocities and 350 ways of killing fantasy of yours is pure BS as everything you say. You imagine numbers - 250,000???? ;) maybe, a million? no? , tortures perpetrated by NKWD or Soviet armies made to look like UPA by communist regime which reigned for 50 years after and which is known with its falsification of facts, or even pictures of Ukrainian families, presented as Polish, murdered by who knows whom in what was going in Ukraine at that time. Where is your proof of who did murder these people? None.

cutting of breasts of women and salting the wounds for example was frequent.

Ukraine was attacked by Soviets, Nazis, Poles who had no intent of letting people live on their lands. Ukrainian regular insurgents which made 40,000 self-trained soldiers and lots of people who supported them had barely what to fight with. Food was in shortage, guns where stolen from killing occupying forces and there was no time for wasting salt on somebody's wounds, cutting breasts, making 350 Polish imagined tortures if you wanted to see your country free. During Second Polish republic in prisons where Poles had enough time to waste, these practices were extensively used on any representative of national minority, be it a Jew, a Bielorusin, a Ukrainian or a Lithuanian.

Ukrainians didn't wanted compromise but all and more, so they got nothing.

With Poles we made so many compromises in history that this is simply ridiculous. But in every one of them, you betrayed the agreement. And if you don't believe me, just ask Czechs or Lithuanians, they had the same experience with you. This is why you are angels and every one else are bad and injust to these pure-white polish goląbki.

iron is boring

Ironing too ;)
Bzibzioh
3 Aug 2010 #137
tortures perpetrated by NKWD or Soviet armies made to look like UPA by communist regime which reigned for 50 years after and which is known with its falsification of facts

Any take on this one, aphro?
OP aphrodisiac 11 | 2,441
3 Aug 2010 #138
Yet, I still have to see your contribution to this thread which are devoid of sneer and contemptuous remarks.

Yet, I still have to see your contribution to this thread which are devoid of sneer and contemptuous remarks. You have not presented any arguments besides agreeing with Soki, nor have you attempted to refute my claim.

Nor have you done any of the footwork- so.........check some sources, do some reading and get curious instead of bashing anybody who is posting here.

I want to see you prove something for a change, preferable with quoting some sources.

At least Soki tried to defend the good name of Poles by providing many links, you, on the other hand just sneer.
Bzibzioh
3 Aug 2010 #139
Yet, I still have to see your contribution to this thread which are devoid of sneer and contemptuous remarks.

No, you don't. I won't participate in obvious pro-Ukrainian propaganda piece made for google-searching purposes which you clearly admitted in Polish speaking part of this forum. Your goody-two-shoes persona you are creating here may fool some but not me. Nice try, though :)

So I take it that you are not going to take a bite on that Nathan's "blame-Russians-not-us" point. You have some brains left.
Ironside 51 | 11,338
3 Aug 2010 #140
With Poles we made so many compromises in history that this is simply ridiculous.

Who ? what ? and where ?

This is why you are angels

this is old!Are you jealous? Don't worry Poles will do some ethic cleansing and we'll be even and bad ! what says you?

I want to see you prove something for a change,

You were talking about informative thread and latter about blame, excuses and all !
Make up your mind!
porzeczka - | 102
3 Aug 2010 #141
The main directive of Polonization Kholm Region

That's very bad, biased/skewed translation (of the whole document), and you know it if you read the thread on Axis history forum (the one you took it from). So why are you posting it (again)?????????

Some fragments mean exactly the opposite of the original.

Kościół Pijarów

Kościół Pijarów as Cerkiew

Roman Catholic Church in Warsaw (Kościół Pijarów) converted into Orthodox Church.

St Joseph Church

Roman Catholic church (St Joseph Chuch) being demolishedby the order of tsarist authorities in Vilnius, 1877.

Russian faith or Russian influence, Ukrainian Orhtodox churches in Chelm region were not centers of Russian Faith but Ukrainian faith.

Depends how you look at it.

At the time of the first partition of Poland in 1772, there were some 4.7 million Uniates in the Polish-Lithuanian state and barely 400000 Orthodox believers.

Source: Polish encounters, Russian identity, David L. Ransel, 2005.

note: the Orthodox believers in PLC must have been mostly Belarusians
Catholicism was seen by tsarist authorities as Polish faith. That is why they tried so hard to 'depolonize' Ukrainians, among others. They did it by destruction/changing Catholic churches into Orthodox ones, building Orthodox churches everywhere and by forcing mass-conversions to Orthodoxy. During 'revindication', Polish authorities tried to 'derusify' some regions - at least that is what they believed they were doing - there is talk about 'derusification' in official papers.

The region under dispute which in 1912 came to be known as Kholm province, consisted of eleven districts inthe eastern provinces of Siedlce and Lublin, both of which were predominantly Polish and Catholicand had been part of the Congress of Poland established in 1815. Adjacent to the provinces of Grodno and Zhitomir, their population included 310,000 Catholics, 305,000 Orthodox, 114,000 Jews, and 28,000 people professing various other faiths. But these figures tells only part of the story, since about two-thirds of the Orthodox were former Uniates, who a generation earlier (had been more or less coerced into converting to Orthodoxy. The converts were not firm adherents of Orthodoxy...

Source: The Search for Stability in Late Imperial Russia, Abraham Ascher, 2001

Like the Promethean project and the Volhynian experiment, the ukrainization of the Orthodox Church was justified within a certain conception of Polish interests. When negotiations between the Polish state and the Orthodox Church begun in 1930, the Polish prime minister could foresee that a ukrainized Orthodox Church would serve Polish interests in the Soviet Union.

Józefski and his collaborators worked to ukranize the Orthodox Church, to incline Orthodox priests to use the local Ukrainian language rather than Russian in sermons, record keeping, and informal communication with believers.

Source: Sketches from a Secret War: A Polish Artist's Mission to Liberate Soviet Ukraine, Timothy Snyder, 2007.

In Russian? Is that how Ukrainian nationalism looked like?

I think you meant to say that they were Greco-Catholic from the church and not Greek which refers more to nationality.

They are called this way in many publications, or 'Ukrainian Greek Catholics'. Is that wrong?
Search google for Greek Catholics in Ukraine

huri.harvard.edu/lib/bibliography/cont10.html
OP aphrodisiac 11 | 2,441
3 Aug 2010 #142
So I take it that you are not going to take a bite on that Nathan's "blame-Russians-not-us" point. You have some brains left.

no, I don't like to waste my time on stuck - up ******* got some work to do, other then getting involved in another match with you. Boring and tedious.

You were talking about informative thread and latter about blame, excuses and all !
Make up your mind!

prove it by quoting me, although I doubt that you can since your reading comprehension sucks:)

I am off for today.....be back later.
Ironside 51 | 11,338
3 Aug 2010 #143
prove it by quoting me,

you are sneaky fellow, nevertheless Lwów should belong to Poland and Wołyn massacre cannot be justified!
Seanus 15 | 19,706
3 Aug 2010 #144
Not to worry, Tusk will be burning down Catholic ones before too long. He is really gonna move Poland in a bad direction.
porzeczka - | 102
3 Aug 2010 #145
The failure of Ukrainian state (lost war againts Poles) + Polish policies + Ukrainian fascism + Demoralization of population and destruction of Ukrainian and Polish elites during WW2 + Territorial disputes = Volhynian slaughter.

Young terrorists such as Stepan Bandera were formed not by the prewar empires, but by fascist ideology and the experience of national discrimination in Poland.

In the late 1920s and early 1930s, as a new Polish government sought reconciliation with its five million Ukrainian citizens, Ukrainian nationalists acted decisively to prevent any compromise settlement. Bandera was one of the main organizers of terror campaigns intended to prevent Ukrainians from accepting the Polish government by provoking Polish retaliation. The main targets of their assassination attempts were Ukrainians and Poles who wished to work together.

Source: A Fascist hero in democratic Kiev, T. Snyder (a historian from Yale), published in The New York Review of Books, February 24, 2010.
Seanus 15 | 19,706
3 Aug 2010 #146
It disgusts me how apparent Christians cross themselves before carrying out killings. Radovan Karadzic is a prime example. Sorry Crow, but he is a war criminal. So many others had better think twice before crossing themselves, Tusk included.
Sokrates 8 | 3,346
4 Aug 2010 #147
The failure of Ukrainian state (lost war againts Poles) + Polish policies + Ukrainian fascism + Demoralization of population and destruction of Ukrainian and Polish elites during WW2 + Territorial disputes = Volhynian slaughter

Thats the best summary in a pill i have seen for a long time.

It must be said that UPA conscripted people under pain of death and killed at least 30.000 ukrainians as well but sadly that doesnt make the extent of the ukrainian crime any smaller, the reasons any less cowardly.

Even today ukrainians like Nathan and Aphrodisiac approach the subject dishonestly, Nathan openly denies it while Aphro being a rather smart fellow simply avoids it, this entire thread has one reason and thats to focus on small polish-ukrainian incidents rather then on the Volhynia massacres of the polish citizens by ukrainians.

The fact is Poland had all the power in the world to exterminate ukrainians, even during WW2 Home Army could have easily cleanse Volhynia, it didnt, this just shows that untill the end Poles never descended to the dephts of barbarism ukrainians did, despite the horrific tragedy happening all around them polish soldiers refused to target women, children and elderly like their ukrainian counterparts did.
Nathan 18 | 1,363
4 Aug 2010 #148
Don't worry Poles will do some ethic cleansing

You should do self-cleansing, that's for sure.

How destroying and burning Ukrainian churches equals so-called "restoration" of Polish Catholicism in Ukraine?

Uniates - the majority of Ukrainians, and more nationalistic (due to Austrian rule) than Ukrainian Orthodox believers, were not targeted.

Uniates have never made majority in Ukraine. Why do you make stuff up? Uniates more nationalistic? Read more of Ukrainian history and you will realize that the main national spirit of Ukraine was upheld by Orthodox believers, not Catholics. Ukrainians who fought Poles and Russians in 16th, 17th and 18th centuries were overwhelmingly Orthodox.

Sketches from a Secret War: A Polish Artist's Mission to Liberate Soviet Ukraine, Timothy Snyder, 2007

Wow, quite a title and again Timothy Snyder ;)

If Orthodox believers were outraged by 'revindication' campaign, then Catholics must have been infuriated when their churches were destroyed, or changed into Orthodox temples.

How is it connected to burning Ukrainian Orthodox churches which existed in Volyn, Chelm and L'viv region for centuries? Why do you show pictures of UNBURNED RUSSIAN CHURCH IN THE MIDDLE OF FREAKING CAPITAL OF YOURS and give this as an example of your REVINDICATION on RUSSIAN policy while you burnt UKRAINIAN CHURCHES in HUNDREDS all over western regions of Ukraine? Why didn't you burn this one then??? Ha???

Roman Catholic church (St Joseph Chuch) being demolished by the order of tsarist authorities in Vilnius, 1877.

Again Russian tsar policy and it was in Vilnius (Lithuania), not Poland.

There you had 150 years of Polonization and Latinization, which included similar policies you did during 1920s and 1930s. If you managed to burn over 210 Ukrainian churches, burn libraries, close schools and expel Ukrainian profs from every university in your reach within 19 years, guess what you did in 150 years in 16-17th centuries. Ukraine before 16th century was almost exclusively orthodox, with universities and schools and churches which had lectures about Orthodox faith, not Catholic. Everything started to change after Brest 1596.

The Ukrainian Catholic Church did not exist, as such, until the Union of Brest in the late 16th century.

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ukrainian_Greek_Catholic_Church

In order to survive and get a better job people at those time accepted Uniate faith as it still contain the same Orthodox rite, only recognition of pope was new. But who cared about a dude in Rome as long as you may pray in your own language.

The converts were not firm adherents of Orthodoxy...

I mean what kind of statement is that? ;) Did they measure faith at that time by some electronic devices?

Józefski and his collaborators worked to ukranize the Orthodox Church

Wow, that Snyder is something! ;) So, basically Poles did everything even ukrainize Ukrainians. That's phenomenal.

At the time of the first partition of Poland in 1772, there were some 4.7 million Uniates in the Polish-Lithuanian state and barely 400000 Orthodox believers.

As of 2008, the Ukrainian Greek Catholic Church is estimated to have 4,284,082 faithful
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ukrainian_Greek_Catholic_Church

Looks strange, doesn't it? After 230 years? Polish sources and Tymothy Snyder are famous for blowing everything up out of proportions to prove their "point".

They are called this way in many publications, or 'Ukrainian Greek Catholics'. Is that wrong?

It is anachronism still in use. I hope this out of place word will be replaced.
MareGaea 29 | 2,752
4 Aug 2010 #149
Show some humility, at least occasionally, and let other posters decide about that.

If I have to wait for your opinion, I can wait until I'm a 100 years old as you don't have seem to have any opinion about anything whatsoever, but instead lard any thread you participate in with personal remarks. And since I do at least an efford to contribute, your comment is, I would nearly say as usual, uncalled for.

Keep dreaming, girl.

Not necessarily losing, but he has succeeded in turning the whole topic upside down, turning it from Church destroying Poles into a discussion about murderous Ukrainian fascist organisations.

Ukraine was attacked by Soviets, Nazis, Poles who had no intent of letting people live on their lands.

Yes - a lot of Poles seem to forget that the Ukrainians saw the Poles, like the Soviets as enemies. Also a reason why they thought the Nazis were their liberators; a notion they would quickly come to regret, but that's a besides. I know it's hard to imagine that anybody on this godforgotten planet saw the Poles as enemies, but the Ukrainians did. And they could bring up little love or sympathy for Polish policies aimed at the eradication of Ukrainian culture in the Ukrainian territories occupied by Poland. And then when the Polish govt had the guts to actually bring Polish settlers in an attempt to humiliate the original Ukrainian population even further, it didn't hit the good-will charts among the Ukrainians either.

Instead of focusing on all the terrible crimes that happened back and forth, it's imo better to look at the causes. If for example a piece of Polish territory gets occupied after a war and the occupier tries to equal it culturally with his own culture and send settlers in to make it even more his own, you would probably have no objection when bands of Poles would start killing those settlers.

Now, let's go back to the original topic at hand.

>^..^<

M-G (tiens)
Ironside 51 | 11,338
4 Aug 2010 #150
Well, M-G I wouldn't expect it from you. I cannot say that I agree with all of it but it is impressive.
However it has little to do with the thread topic.


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