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Destruction of Ukrainian churches in Poland in 1938


Nathan 18 | 1,363
5 Aug 2010 #211
1) According to Maciej Mróz's „Katolicyzm na pograniczu. Kościół katolicki wobec kwestii ukraińskiej i białoruskiej w Polsce w latach 1918-1925” out of 3 100 Orthodox churches Catholics demanded restitution of 880 post-Catholic temples, including 240 Roman Catholic and 640 Unite Catholic.

From the same "source" you took your info from. So, if you demanded for Uniate (Ukrainian) churches to be returned (almost 3 times as much taken by Orthodox as Polish), why did you burn churches of Orthodox Ukrainians. This just escapes my logic. Isn't this the issue to be decided between Ukrainians themselves. Or Poles had some other intention in mind with the would-be recovered churches? Since churches were taken by Russians, then why do you destroy even stolen but Ukrainian property? Be kind to explain.
porzeczka - | 102
5 Aug 2010 #212
You still haven't explained the huge Russian Orthodox church you have in Warsaw while burning hundreds of Ukrainian churches in Western Ukraine if you indeed were revindicating.

Why do you make stuff up?
1890-1900:
1939:
2004:

Info: pl.wikipedia.org/wiki/Katedra_Polowa_Wojska_Polskiego_w_Warszawie
I will answer the rest tomorrow.
pawian 192 | 19,264
5 Aug 2010 #213
Polish pre-war authorities, believing that it was possible to polonize Ukrainian minority, committed a grave mistake. After various acts hostile to Ukrainians, the Polish-Ukrainian relations became the worst in history and their tragic culmination was the genocide of thousands of Poles in Volhyn region.
Harry
5 Aug 2010 #214
I'm sorry but ukrainians dont get to wake up after 500 years, just like Jews resigned all rights to Israel leaving it over a 1000 years ago so did ukrainians resigned all rights to ukraine by giving it away to Poles 500~ years ago.

So one assumes that Poland will soon be leaving the 'recovered' territories then.
MareGaea 29 | 2,752
5 Aug 2010 #215
I'm sorry but ukrainians dont get to wake up after 500 years, just like Jews resigned all rights to Israel leaving it over a 1000 years ago so did ukrainians resigned all rights to ukraine by giving it away to Poles 500~ years ago.

I have to go with Harry on this one: what about Silesia and Prussia?

>^..^<

M-G (tiens)
Ironside 51 | 11,338
5 Aug 2010 #216
And actually what makes the Ukrainian quest for independence so much different than the Polish quest for independence?

gee :D and you call yourself historian :D

Maybe if you look at it from a Ukrainian perspective, neither occupations would be preferable.

and ? Poles should give them independence on the silver plater then give their very own lands to the equation ( why?) and then look as that independent country crumble under soviets aggression and internal strife - and then Poland is next shrunk and unable to defend herself - I guess we should expect some European country to help us gratuitously- say Germany and then they should give us some of their land to be fair!???

:DDDDDDDDD

I-S ( puzzle solved M-G is Martian !He/It/She has to be!)

---------------------------------------------------------------------- ---------------------------------------------------------------------- ------------------------------------------............................ ...................................................................... ......................

their tragic culmination was the genocide of thousands of Poles in Volhyn region.

that tell you what? crystal ball ?I will call you fairy from now on....
reason for culmination you can guess without the doubt during intercourse - reason for mass murder are not that simple ! Next you are going to say that Jews deserved their fate????

I-S (teachers phew! I hope you don't teach history!?)
Harry
6 Aug 2010 #217
what about Silesia and Prussia?

And what about Pomerania? Last time Stettin was in Poland was the 12th century!
pawian 192 | 19,264
6 Aug 2010 #218
Iron, I thought you eventually matured with age.

It seems I was wrong. :):):)

There is really no need to lose temper, so relax.

Save your nerves. :):):):)
MediaWatch 10 | 945
6 Aug 2010 #219
Sokrates don't you think you're being a little too hard on the Ukrainians?

Poles have not always made the best decisions.

Also Poland's location closer to the EU has helped modernize Poland. Ukraine does not have this advantage.
MareGaea 29 | 2,752
6 Aug 2010 #220
Iron, I thought you eventually matured with age.

You know what the difference is between Le Pétomane (Joseph Pujol) and Iron? Le Pétomane did it for entertainment :)

youtube.com/watch?v=qpB3ME_Xem0

If you think of it like this, even Iron will get amusing :)

>^..^<

M-G (tiens)
Bzibzioh
6 Aug 2010 #221
And what about Pomerania? Last time Stettin was in Poland was the 12th century!

So why your lovely Mr Churchill cut that deal? Blame the schools in GB with lousy history classes :) It's not like anybody bothered to ask Poland our opinion on the matter.

I have to go with Harry on this one:

I would be sorely disappointed if you didn't go with Harry :)
Harry
6 Aug 2010 #222
It's not like anybody bothered to ask Poland our opinion on the matter.

And it's not like Poles had to take the territories or expel the people who lived there. But Poles did. And it's not like Poles are unable to give the land back to the rightful owners. But Poles don't.

And don't use the word 'our' when talking about Poles: you are a Canadian who chooses to live in Canada.
Ironside 51 | 11,338
6 Aug 2010 #223
Iron, I thought you eventually matured with age.

mature ? last defence of the incompetent ?

I'm relaxed ! both of you are funny Specimens :D
hague1cmaeron 14 | 1,377
6 Aug 2010 #224
I think you would find many Ukrainians disagreeing with this kind of statements. Don't forget they saw the Poles as enemies.

I am sure they would, but it's not as if they had much of a choice is it?

Your example of Russia and Germany is hardly equivalent is it know? And we are talking about the export of civilization and not barbarity. So whilst the Poles brought some suffering to the Ukrainians after centuries of relative amiability, lets not forget it's not as though the Poles forced the Ukrainian nobility to speak Polish all those centuries ago.
OP aphrodisiac 11 | 2,441
6 Aug 2010 #225
in 1938 there was no nobility anymore, so lets concentrate on the topic at hand.
Sokrates 8 | 3,346
6 Aug 2010 #226
Thats because the entire Ukrainian nobility was Polonised and Ukrainians retained only the least impressive members of their society, everyone noteworthy became a Pole.
OP aphrodisiac 11 | 2,441
6 Aug 2010 #227
interesting - just like Sheptycki?
porzeczka - | 102
7 Aug 2010 #228
out of 3 100 Orthodox churches Catholics demanded restitution of 880 post-Catholic temples, including 240 Roman Catholic and 640 Unite Catholic.

Apparently some churches were returned to (Catholic) faithful, some were demolished. It didn't cross your mind that Orthodox Churches built by Tsarist authorities were the ones in most cases destroyed? It shouldn't be so hard to understand 'why', for someone who claims that Ukrainian atrocities stemmed from desire for revenge.

Since you are particularly interested in Warsaw...

W stolicy Polski pozostały tylko dwie cerkwie prawosławne. Inne zwrócono przedrozbiorowym właścicielom (dotyczyło to zarekwirowanych przez carat świątyń katolickich), przekazano innym wyznaniom lub zburzono.

Only three Orthodox Churches remained in the capital. The rest was returned to Catholics and believers of other faiths or demolished.

A great deal of this territory and its settlers subsequently became the western edge of Rus' principality at the start of the 9th century,

Not for long. The territory we talk about was part of Kingdom of Hungary since the beginning of 11th and later of Austria-Hungary.

in July 1918, Rusyn immigrants in the United States had convened and called for complete independence. Failing that, they would try to unite with Galicia and Bukovyna; and failing that, they would demand autonomy, though they did not specify under which state.

Under the unfavorable circumstances, having no army or other ways of influencing political decisions, Rusyns voted for the best available option - Czechoslovakia.

In the first place, Rusyns wanted independence.
Ukrainian Nationalists took advantage of the weakness of Czechoslovakia and with Nazi blessing politically took over Subcarpatian Rus. The name Carpatho-Ukraine was imposed by Voloshyn's goverment.

In Carpatho-Ukraine itself an authoritarian regime was set up and characterized by:
(1) a single-party system,
(2) the adoption of Ukrainian nationalists ideology as an official yet unconstitutional means of struggle against anyone with different political views, which permitted interment without trial at a Camp in Dumen,
(3) the establishment of a paramilitary organization 'Carpathian Sich', which implemented by force the generally unpopular decrees of the Voloshyn government,
(4) the abolishion of an independent judiciary.

Czechoslovaks didn't know everything about Voloshyn. Here is the reason of his 'strange' behavior:

When, on March 14, 1939, Slovakia declared itself independent, Czechoslovakia in effect ceased to exist and Carpatho-Ukraine found itself in a political vacuum.Voloshyn responded by declaring late in the evening of March 14 Carpatho-Ukraine's independence and calling on the German government to accept it as a protectorate.

After his election by the diet as president of Carpatho-Ukraine, Voloshyn was faced with the following realities:Nazi Germany rejected his request that Carpatho-Ukraine become a protectorate; the Hungarian government delivered an ultimatum calling upon the Carpathian Sich to cease its military resistance; and the Czechoslovak Army evacuated the region.

Encyclopedia of Rusyn history and culture, Paul R. Magocsi, 2002
hague1cmaeron 14 | 1,377
7 Aug 2010 #229
there was no nobility anymore, so lets concentrate on the topic at hand.

Yes but their descendants spoke Polish Einstein!

Anyhow let sleeping dogs lie. Relations are very good right now, Poland is batting for Ukrainian entry into the EU, Kwasniewski mediated between the two parties during the Orange Revolution on Kuchma's request etc.

A clip of the reception of the Ukrainian president in Poland

youtube.com/watch?v=7EKaS_--kU0

and, the land of Ukraine as perceived by some Poles long ago, more like the eastern southern part from the time of the golden horde onwards-incidentally the Ukraine was freed from the Tatar yoke by Lithuania at the battle of the Blue waters 1362

youtube.com/watch?v=mBlprdXi1GU
Nathan 18 | 1,363
7 Aug 2010 #230
Here is the article from the Times newspaper dated Oct. 24, 1938:

Polish Ukrainians complained that their Orthodox churches, some of them extremely ancient, were being systematically pulled down or turned into Roman Catholic churches.Of 350 which existed in 1918, all but 50 have vanished or changed hands, most of them during the past year. Both Orthodox and Uniat faithful, the Ukrainians declared, have been forced to adopt Roman Catholicism.

time.com/time/magazine/article/0,9171,883791,00.html

From that moment on, the Churches of Ukraine and Russia went their own separate ways. The latter became central in the growing Russian Tsardom, attaining patriarchate in 1589, whilst the former became subject to repression and Polonization efforts, particularly after the Union of Brest in 1596. Eventually the persecution of Orthodox Ukrainians, led to a massive rebellion under Bohdan Khmelnytsky

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ukrainian_Orthodox_Church_of_the_Kyivan_Patriarchate

Danylo Halyckyj requested aid from Pope Innocent IV in the form of a crusade. In return for papal assistance, Danylo offered to place his lands under the ecclesiastical authority of Rome, a pledge never realized.

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Daniel_of_Galicia

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Grand_Duchy_of_Lithuania#Languages

All these link I provided for you to see that the territories of modern Ukraine and Bielorus' were Orthodox since the time of Kievan Rus' and its christenizing in 988. As you might imagine there were hundreds of Orthodox churches before Russia even came to exist as a state or Polish state encroached on these territories. Uniates, not even Catholic, churches came to life from the Orthodox churches in 1596 and were based on those same Orthodox Christians who agreed to recognize the pope while keeping the Orthodox rite in their liturgical life. So, your claims that Russian tsar built churches in Volyn' and Poles destroyed those so-called "tsar churches" are preposterous.

It shouldn't be so hard to understand 'why', for someone who claims that Ukrainian atrocities stemmed from desire for revenge.

I have never said that there were Ukrainian atrocities caused by revenge. Desperation and resignation were the feelings of people whose lives were turned into nightmare by Poles and Polish government. Revenge is present when there is a hope. Those people had none.

Since you are particularly interested in Warsaw...

W stolicy Polski pozostały tylko dwie cerkwie prawosławne. Inne zwrócono przedrozbiorowym właścicielom (dotyczyło to zarekwirowanych przez carat świątyń katolickich), przekazano innym wyznaniom lub zburzono.

Only three Orthodox Churches remained in the capital. The rest was returned to Catholics and believers of other faiths or demolished.

Your text says "two", not "three" churches. But again you avoid my question of why these churches were left untouched and Russian Orthodox in the middle of Polish capital and Poles who were so eager to fight tsar and his policies went all the way to Volyn' and started destruction of Ukrainian churches there as a revindication? Hope this time you'll answer my question.

Not for long.

Not for long they remained in Hungarian possession either and now they are in Ukraine. I don't understand your argument of "no so long". This is the way I expect Sokrates to argue, not you. If "no so long" is enough for you, then why argue about Carpathian mountains now?

.I am posting it the second time. After the Czechoslovakia ceased to exist as Nazi, Polish and Hungarian armies attacked it from every side, Augustin Voloshyn, who was appointed

In October 1938, he was the head of the Subcarpathian Autonomous Region.

by still existing Czech government, not by himself, that very Voloshyn (a Ukrainian priest, by the way) tried to preserve independance of this land WHILE BEING SUPPORTED BY CZECH TROOPS WHICH KNEW ABOUT THE INDEPENDANCE BECAUSE IT WAS FREAKING DECLARED AND EVERYONE KNEW. But since Hitler refused its independance he and the CZECH army retreated unwilling to die against the overpowering force.

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Avgustyn_Voloshyn

Are you playing with me?

Carpatho-Ukraine (Ukrainian: Карпатська Україна, Karpats'ka Ukrayina) was an autonomous region within Czechoslovakia from late 1938 to March 15, 1939. It declared itself an independent Ukrainian republic on March 15, 1939, but was occupied by Hungary between March 15 and March 18, 1939, remaining under Hungarian control until the Nazi occupation of Hungary in 1944.

So, why Czechs attacked Hungarians and not Voloshyn? Why there was no response on their part, but immediate attack on Hungarians? How can you say how popular or unpopular were the policy of the country if it existed only a few days or even hours?

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Carpatho-Ukraine
hague1cmaeron 14 | 1,377
7 Aug 2010 #231
Song about Wołyn in Ukrainian and Polish. Not very pleasant to watch though
...

Poles form eastern Poland trying to maintain their culture.
...

Apparently one of the reasons for the migration of some Poles to the east, was because those who won the Virtuti Militari were promised a farm in the east. I just recently read that in a book, presumably at the expense of the locals.

Akcja Wisla

youtube.com/watch?v=7WODze79XRw&feature=fvw
OP aphrodisiac 11 | 2,441
7 Aug 2010 #232
Yes but their descendants spoke Polish Einstein!

still don't see your point, since in that particular area both sides spoke each other languages. Even I speak Polish, which does not make me Polish, or does it?

Anyhow let sleeping dogs lie. Relations are very good right now, Poland is batting for Ukrainian entry into the EU, Kwasniewski mediated between the two parties during the Orange Revolution on Kuchma's request etc.

true, on the government level the relationship is very appropriate.

and, the land of Ukraine as perceived by some Poles long ago, more like the eastern southern part from the time of the golden horde onwards-incidentally the Ukraine was freed from the Tatar yoke by Lithuania at the battle of the Blue waters 1362

I don't see how relevant it is to the main topic.

Akcja Wisla

nor this.
southern 75 | 7,096
7 Aug 2010 #233
Even I speak Polish, which does not make me Polish, or does it?

You need to be catholic and straight as well.
OP aphrodisiac 11 | 2,441
7 Aug 2010 #234
Apparently one of the reasons for the migration of some Poles to the east, was because those who won the Virtuti Militari were promised a farm in the east. I just recently read that in a book, presumably at the expense of the locals.

got any sources?
no google sources please.
Soki,

even I found better sources for Volyn, you are such a loser lol Please stop putting me to sleep.........and everybody else for that matter. How repetitive can one get, ha?I bet you are under sexed because of your big mouth. Scares all the birds away......
Sokrates 8 | 3,346
7 Aug 2010 #235
Apparently one of the reasons for the migration of some Poles to the east, was because those who won the Virtuti Militari were promised a farm in the east. I just recently read that in a book, presumably at the expense of the locals.

To be specific, all legionnaries and former soldiers could move to Ukraine and were given a decent size plot of land but not at the expense of the locals, the ukrainians were apparently very poor at managing the polish province and simply failed to process much of the land as it lay wild.

Most of the villages destroyed by ukrainians during their genocide of polish civilians were either centuries old or newly founded in the wilderness that would otherwise go to waste (there was no organised effort to manage the region by ukrainians).

even I found better sources for Volyn, you are such a loser lol Please stop putting me to sleep.........

So pictures of dead polish civilians massacred by ukrainians are "putting you to sleep"?

even I found better sources for Volyn, you are such a loser lol Please stop putting me to sleep

You have provided no sources at all throught the entire thread.
hague1cmaeron 14 | 1,377
8 Aug 2010 #236
still don't see your point, since in that particular area both sides spoke each other languages. .

By all means please go to sleep, the collective intelligence of this debate will increase considerably:)
OP aphrodisiac 11 | 2,441
8 Aug 2010 #237
so you got nothing else to say. Hmmmmm......
Sokrates 8 | 3,346
8 Aug 2010 #238
Do you have anything else to say about Ukrainian crimes in Volhynia or still attempting to dodge the subject or justify it?
Nathan 18 | 1,363
8 Aug 2010 #239
Do you have anything else to say

What else can be said? Poles burnt Ukrainian churches in order to root out Ukrainian culture and nation as such. Settling Ukrainian territories with Polish militants, lands owned by Ukrainians, often resulting in leaving people with no place to live in. Schools and libraries were burnt or closed, universities made unaccessible for Ukrainians. Thousands of men and women were incarcerated for simply sticking to their parents' culture. Many died in horrible conditions in Polish concentration camps such as Bereza Kartuska before WWll and Jaworzno, for example, after the war. These crimes remain still unanswered by Polish government till today.
OP aphrodisiac 11 | 2,441
8 Aug 2010 #240
Bereza Kartuska

oh, that is the topic on its won. Polish concentrations camp with tortures. Nice one Nathan:).


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