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Destruction of Ukrainian churches in Poland in 1938


Ironside 51 | 11,338
1 Aug 2010 #61
I'll ask you once again aphrodisiac, what your point is?
Seanus 15 | 19,706
1 Aug 2010 #62
I didn't say they were all burnt either. Good find, aphro. I feel that nationalism was rampant in those times and such OTT sentiments regrettably found pride of place.

Also, I feel you could be talking more about the deeper agenda of the RCC. I know that you understand Polish so you have access to a wide range of sources. They are in bed with some bad folk and have been for a long time.
OP aphrodisiac 11 | 2,441
1 Aug 2010 #63
Also, I feel you could be talking more about the deeper agenda of the RCC.

in relationship to this topic or in general?

But that reminds me of a very interesting article in Polityka and the the RCC has been trying to influence Polish citizens during the President Election 2010.

I'll ask you once again aphrodisiac, what your point is?

my point was to prove that this particular action was precisely scripted by the Polish government and implemented. I also found out that the action has started much earlier then 1938, would you like me to point you out to some sources? I would be happy:)

Source: Centralne Archiwum Wojskowe, 3 Dywizja Piechoty Legionow, I.313.3.2

Seanus 15 | 19,706
1 Aug 2010 #64
It weaves and permeates at levels that most don't see. They have their faith, and that is great, but the church too has its agenda and motives which are not always altruistic. The overriding philosophy of the Vatican sometimes presents itself in a bad way. For me, there must be tolerance of other denominations and not desecration which is the ultimate in sacrilege.
OP aphrodisiac 11 | 2,441
1 Aug 2010 #65
It weaves and permeates at levels that most don't see. They have their faith, and that is great, but the church too has its agenda and motives which are not always altruistic.

that is true, but there are many people in Poland who see it, including Catholics.

The overriding philosophy of the Vatican sometimes presents itself in a bad way. For me, there must be tolerance of other denominations and not desecration which is the ultimate in sacrilege.

agree, but it is a topic for another thread.
Seanus 15 | 19,706
1 Aug 2010 #66
It is but I was getting at the purity of religion aspect of things. Religion, whether we like it or not, is one of the most divisive forces on the planet. It has amazing destructive potential and the code that you outlined above just goes to show how far authorities are prepared to go to create their exclusive vision at the expense of others.

Frankly put, there is no excuse for destroying churches. It is a gesture of war IMHO. It is a crying shame that so-called dialogue is just about lining pockets and far less about solving issues of dispute. I wonder what kind of discussions took place before the decision was taken to burn down some churches. It is inexcusable to just go ahead and do it.
Ironside 51 | 11,338
2 Aug 2010 #67
my point was to prove that this particular action was precisely scripted by the Polish government and implemented. I also found out that the action has started much earlier then 1938,

You could ask me! You can also ask for my interpretation because as you know (should know) facts are not enough to understand reasons and implication of an historical process.

Well, nobody deny it ! (like some Ukrainians Wolyn massacre, sorry )
I would like to ask you why did you deem important to point out such action, for what reason exactly ?

excuse for destroying churches.

according to nowadays standards but nevertheless is done
Seanus 15 | 19,706
2 Aug 2010 #68
Well, that's what I've been saying. Times were different then and we can't judge so precisely by the prevailing conditions of today.
Ironside 51 | 11,338
2 Aug 2010 #69
would you like me to point you out to some sources? I would be happy:)

happy ? why?
you will find it! - Akcja rewindykacji cerkwi prawosławnych w II Rzeczypospolitej

Well, that's what I've been saying. Times were different then and we can't judge so precisely by the prevailing conditions of today.

Yeah, it was reaction on Russian policy during times of the partition!
Mainly ....
OP aphrodisiac 11 | 2,441
2 Aug 2010 #70
You could ask me!

you are free to add to the comments on this thread.

You can also ask for my interpretation because as you know (should know) facts are not enough to understand reasons and implication of an historical process.

You are free to post your interpretations and opinions, as much as other posters on PF as long as they don't brake the forum rules.

Well, nobody deny it ! (like some Ukrainians Wolyn massacre, sorry )

this thread is not about denial, nor about Volyn massacre.

I would like to ask you why did you deem important to point out such action, for what reason exactly ?

I don't have any reasons besides discussing facts. Please don't ask me this question again, since I will not be able to provide you with another answer.
Sokrates 8 | 3,346
2 Aug 2010 #71
so you don't have any examples of Ukrainians attempting to convert Poles then

Actually yes i do, there's quite a few articles about Poles switching to orthodox faith to avoid having their childrens bellys torn apart with saws.

All Poles in mixed marriages that survived initial massacres (very few) got the choice convert or die.

Aphro let me make one thing clear, you want us to stand accountable or even discuss about a few dozen churches changed into marketplaces or schools and a few thousand Ukrainians who got money and priveliges to convert.

At the same time your nation denies murdering a quarter of milion of our civilians, continously insults us with false history accounts and shovels its unimaginable savagery under the carpet.

I'm sorry but there's no room to discuss untill Ukrainians shoulder the debt their ancestors drew with us.

Lack of official apology is not equal with denial of facts. No?

Yes it is, lack of any reaction whatsoever when such reaction was asked for or expected is equal to denial. Notice that Poland did apologise for Vistula even though it didnt have to and probably shouldnt, thus far Poland is the only one extending a hand.

If you read my posts months back you'll see i was much more pro ukrainian but the more time passes the more convinced i'm that Ukraine is simply not deserving said hand and it might be better to f*ck it in concert with Russia if it proves too troublesome.
porzeczka - | 102
2 Aug 2010 #72
I also found out that the action has started much earlier then 1938

That's true. One of the first destroyed Orthodox churches was the Nevsky Cathedral in Warsaw:

Tsar Alexander III gave his approval to fund the cathedral on the date of anniversary of partitions of Poland in 1893 which was celebrated as "joining of the West Russian state"[2].

It was demolished in mid-1920s by the Polish authorities less than 15 years after its construction.

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alexander_Nevsky_Cathedral,_Warsaw

Some facts that were omitted:

- 66-70 percent of Polish Ukrainians were Greek Catholics. The source of Ukrainian Nationalism in XIX/XX c. was the Uniate Church (those 'nationally conscious' Ukrainians). Orthodox services were often conducted in Russian in Volhynia - that's why Piłsudski wanted to 'Ukrainise' Orthodox church there.

- There was negative attitude among Polish society towards Orthodoxes. Most probably because they were used by Russian government as instrument of Russification and took over Catholic Churches.

- When the Russian Empire acquired the right bank of Volhynia, and Podolia during the second and third partitions of Poland, 2,300Uniate churches were forced to become Orthodox.

- In 1875, 375Uniate Churches were converted into Orthodox churches. At least 240Roman Catholic churches were converted into Orthodox too.

In 1912, the Orthodox Bishop Nikolai of Warsaw declared in the State council that the historic task of the Russian state used to be and still was the Russification of everything non-Russian and the conversion to Orthodoxy of everyone who was not a member

Polish 're-vindication campaign' (that is how they called it) can be seen as next stage of the conflict between Orthodoxes and Catholics (or perhaps even more directly Russian faith vs Polish faith, Russian sphere of influence vs. Polish sphere of influence).

Check CBOS research on how many people know anything about massacres in Volhynia.
Perhabs 'revindication' is not often discussed in public because of the same reason Volhynia 1943 isn't.
Sokrates 8 | 3,346
2 Aug 2010 #73
and 200,000 peoples brutally butchered as a payback

250.000 and they were not murdered as payback for churches, the churches were a fairly local affair, the people were murdered because Poles were succesfull, Ukrainians were not.

Jealousy bred hatred, Poles succeeded on every field that Ukrainians failed and that was the unbearable bit, when Ukrainians realised they cant defeat Poles in any sort of a conflict they decided to use the favorable circumstances and murder the defencless element of polish population - civilians.

In normal circumstances polish militias and partisants would hand ukrainians their arses but under german occupation the means to protect civilian population were limited.
OP aphrodisiac 11 | 2,441
2 Aug 2010 #74
Aphro let me make one thing clear, you want us to stand accountable or even discuss about a few dozen churches changed into marketplaces or schools and a few thousand Ukrainians who got money and priveliges to convert.

I don't recall saying anything like that in this thread. Correction: the article states: 120, 10 dozens to be exact. I was not aware of the fact that all of those Ukrainians got money for conversion, could you provide me with some sources?

At the same time your nation denies murdering a quarter of milion of our civilians, continously insults us with false history accounts and shovels its unimaginable savagery under the carpet.

How is that related to me me writing about churches? I have never denied Volyn.

I'm sorry but there's no room to discuss untill Ukrainians shoulder the debt their ancestors drew with us.

I understand that there are certain conditions attached before YOU are willing to discuss the topic. That is fair enough, thanks for letting me know your position on that subject.

Yes it is, lack of any reaction whatsoever when such reaction was asked for or expected is equal to denial. Notice that Poland did apologise for Vistula even though it didnt have to and probably shouldnt, thus far Poland is the only one extending a hand.

fair enough.

If you read my posts months back you'll see i was much more pro ukrainian but the more time passes the more convinced i'm that Ukraine is simply not deserving said hand and it might be better to f*ck it in concert with Russia if it proves too troublesome.

fair enough.
porzeczka - | 102
2 Aug 2010 #75
The main directive of Polonization Kholm Region

Apparently what Aphrodisiac posted is some horribly bad translation. Here is a post concerning it:

e.g. that's the original:

- Znieść opłaty administracyjne przy zmianie obrządku prawosławnego na rzym.-kat

And that's translation:

- Cancel the administrative payment to the Orthodox rite priests.

original:
- Dopuścić ich do szkół podoficerskich

translation:
- to prevent them from joining Officer schools.
Sokrates 8 | 3,346
2 Aug 2010 #76
I don't recall saying anything like that in this thread. Correction: the article states: 120, 10 dozens to be exact. I was not aware of the fact that all of those Ukrainians got money for conversion, could you provide me with some sources

Ukrainians burned 384 churches, 391 schools and 23 kindergardens, in at least six cases the kindgergarden had polish children herded inside.

Ukrainians killed 250.000 defencless polish civilians, stole their property and just like you pretend it didnt happen.

Lets discuss.

Also aphrodisiac i have provided numerous sources, pictures of polish children shot, raped or disembowelled by ukrainians, pictures of churches burned by ukrainians, pictures of bodies of polish civilians piled by ukrainians.

You want more sources? We can do a thousand pages worth of pictures and sources, Poles did not burn a single church, Ukrainians burned hundreds, usually with people still inside.
Seanus 15 | 19,706
2 Aug 2010 #77
70% of Polish Ukrainians were Greek Catholics? I think you meant to say that they were Greco-Catholic from the church and not Greek which refers more to nationality.
OP aphrodisiac 11 | 2,441
2 Aug 2010 #78
That's true. One of the first destroyed Orthodox churches was the Nevsky Cathedral in Warsaw:

true, but if you read the article from GW, the region of discussion is Chelm region, not Warsaw.

The source of Ukrainian Nationalism in XIX/XX c. was the Uniate Church (those 'nationally conscious' Ukrainians).

so are you saying that was the reason why they were targeted in 1938?

There was negative attitude among Polish society towards Orthodoxes. Most probably because they were used by Russian government as instrument of Russification and took over Catholic Churches.

most probably or you are sure about that?

Polish 're-vindication campaign' (that is how they called it) can be seen as next stage of the conflict between Orthodoxes and Catholics (or perhaps even more directly Russian faith vs Polish faith, Russian sphere of influence vs. Polish sphere of influence).

Russian faith or Russian influence, Ukrainian Orhtodox churches in Chelm region were not centers of Russian Faith but Ukrainian faith.

Check CBOS research on how many people know anything about massacres in Volhynia.

what is the % and how is the popular public knowledge relevant to the topic we are discussing.

Perhabs 'revindication' is not often discussed in public because of the same reason Volhynia 1943 isn't.

and what is the reason Volyn is not discussed in public? I have nothing against Volyn being discussed in public provided reliable sources, scientific studies are used, but I hear that both sides have not completed their studies.

70% of Polish Ukrainians were Greek Catholics? I think you meant to say that they were Greco-Catholic from the church and not Greek which refers more to nationality.

yes.

The Ukrainian nationality question in Poland was involved with developments in the church as well as in politics and education. These developments were complicated by the fact that Ukrainians belonged to two churches. In eastern Galicia, they were primarily Greek Catholic; in the northern areas formerly part of the Russian Empire, they were Orthodox.
According to an agreement (concordat) between Poland and the Vatican signed in February 1925, the jurisdiction of the Greek Catholic Metropolitanate of Halych, with its seat in L'viv, was reaffirmed, although its activity was restricted to its three eparchies (L'viv, Przemysl, and Stanyslaviv) in eastern GaIicia.

books.google.pl/books?id=TA1zVKTTsXUC&printsec=frontcover&hl=pl

source:
A HISTORY OF THE UKRAINE, Paul Robert Magocsi, 1996.
Polonius3 1,000 | 12,446
2 Aug 2010 #79
Is this a different Koniuchy? The one now in Lithuania was where bolshevised Jews murdered all the men, women and children of the Polish village of Koniuchy, stole what they could and burnt down the rest.
Nathan 18 | 1,363
3 Aug 2010 #80
cultural discrimination

Thank you so much, Aphrodisiac, for the info. It was horrible. To destroy churches, places around which revolves Ukrainian tradition and culture en masse: more than 210 churches were destroyed by Poles, as much closed or converted into Catholic churches. All done in 1930s to "fight" Ukrainian nationalism. And now they are asking to give them Ukrainian organ hall to run their masses. ;)

You want to pray so much? Make an effort to rebuild what you destroyed first better, "believers".
MediaWatch 10 | 945
3 Aug 2010 #81
1938 had to be one of the craziest years in Europe. Perhaps it and years near it should be written off as an aberation LOL

During this time, hyper nationalism was plaguing just about every nation in Europe.

Thank God this insane nationalism in general isn't present in Europe today.
Sokrates 8 | 3,346
3 Aug 2010 #83
List of tortures done by ukrainians on polish civilians in 1939-1945, i'll provide some translations.

spis.pl/s/id,5153,Lista-tortur-stosowanych-przez-UPA-18

001. Wbijanie dużego i grubego gwoździa do czaszki głowy.
002. Zdzieranie z głowy włosów ze skórą (skalpowanie).
003. Zadawanie ciosu obuchem siekiery w czaszkę głowy.
004. Zadawanie ciosu obuchem siekiery w czoło.
005. Wyrzynanie na czole "orła".

Note this is not the full list, the full list is over 350 positions

Some translations.

091. Impaling a small child.
093. Nailing a small child to a door.
135. Nailing small children around a large roadside tree creating so called "wreaths".
133. Nailing hands to a doorstep.
123. "Nerons torch" sticking straw onto a victim and setting it him/her on fire.
119. Tearing apart with horses.

And this one.

111. Dragging a mother with three children tied to a horse drawn cart in a manner where one of the mothers leg was chained to the cart, the other leg to the leg of the oldest child, then chaining the other children to the youngest.

The dragging and beating would commence untill the entire family was dead.

Aphrodisiac you must be proud of your ukrainian "heritage", wonder if your grandfather was one of those ukrainian heroes who nailed our children to the doors.

Very very drastic picture.

A polish girl cut in two (while still alive) by ukrainians using a saw, one of the most hideous torture murders ukrainians commited on polish women and children was slowly sawing them apart with large two man saws.

stowarzyszenieuozun.wroclaw.pl/wlodzimierz_wol.htm

Speaking of churches, second row from the uppermost, left side is the picture of a priest Bolesław Szawłowski.

The priest and 222 of his polish parishioners were murdered in a church by ukrainians, the church was then burned.

1938 had to be one of the craziest years in Europe. Perhaps it and years near it should be written off as an aberation LOL

You're absulutely right, 1938 was the first year when ukrainian nationalism reared its head showing its true face, this was the year when ukrainian fascists first abused polish civilians on any notable scale though Poland was not yet defencless so ukrainians refrained from killing people.

When Poland became defencless however stuff like this happened:

solidarni.org/historia/ludobojstwo_na_kresach/masakra_w_lipnikach

179 polish civilians murdered, only the courage of the local polish militia saved 500 further Poles.

We need blood, let loose a sea of blood, we need to terrorize, lets make it hellish having free ukrainian state as a goal lets reach it using all resources, all routes, lets not shy away from burning, pillaging or murder, there's no ethics in war.

Mychajło Kołodzinśkyj - a true ukrainian hero.


A murdered polish civilian, ukrainians gouged out his eyes, tore out his tongue and pierced his cheek with a bayonet.

wolyn.ovh.org/opisy/janowa_dolina-03.html

Another village where ukrainians murdered 500 Poles, a brief translation of the plight of one of the families that managed to survive the massacre of polish civilians by ukrainians.

Okazało się, że podpalili właśnie ten sąsiedni dom, gdzie babcia z dziećmi chodziły spać, a ich to był ten co drugi, nie podpalony. Siedziały zdrętwiałe, bez ruchu, zahipnotyzowane rzezią, która widziały przez maleńkie piwniczne okienko. Tylko mała Renia (Teresa) wtuliła się w swoją mamę i nie patrzyła. Bała się ognia. Zaczęła wołać: - Nie chcę spalić, wole rosscelać. Babcia zakryła jej buzię, uspokoiła i potem nawet już nie zapłakała.

It occured that they set fire to that neighbouring house where granny and the children were sleeping(...) They sat without motion hypnotised by the slaughter, which they saw through the tiny basement windown.

Only tiny Renia (Teresa) hugged her mom and didnt look. She was afraid of the fire. She started crying "i dont want to burn, rather be shot". Granny covered her face, she calmed down and didnt even cry anymore.


A polish man tortured to death by ukrainians circa 1943, note the mouth cut open while he was still alive, the pool of blood under the head indicates he was scalped, a popular torture method among ukrainians in their heroic fight against unarmed civilians.

Really unpleasant sights - you have been warned.

A small polish girl murdered by ukrainians after they stopped a train full of polish passengers and killed them all.

A polish family murdered by ukrainians, husband and wife and two little girls aged 6 and 7.

Before death all victims including the mother and children were burned, pierced with needles and had their limbs chopped off with an axe, their teeth were knocked out and their eyes gouged out.
Amathyst 19 | 2,702
3 Aug 2010 #84
It seems hard to believe, aphro. Desecrating another Christian church?? What makes the RCC so different anyway?

Come on Seaus, surely that was a joke - are you forgetting about ther Reformation?

Wait, I thought you were British? You might as well ask why did Protestants and Catholics kill each other since they're all Christians anyway.

It's not so much about the differences in religions but the fact that belonging to two different churches creates a division in the population.

Im ashamed for Sheep that someone not even British has to bring this up.

It's pure idiocy! I'm aware of it, vetala, very much so! Sectarian divides in Scotland are laughable. Seeing differences where there are more commonalities is just lunacy!

Im sure you are aware of it, but you didnt mention it.

it is not the same. I understand that you are looking for the reference point, but sometimes there cannot be one.

It is, in so much as Catholics were forced to convert to the Church of England and Catholic churches were burnt down and monastories had their roofs removed (the building was no long able to be used - hence the reason you find so many ruins of old monastories in the UK)
Sokrates 8 | 3,346
3 Aug 2010 #85
ukrainians destroying churches.

pl.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zbrodnia_w_Porycku

Assailants stormed the churched, threw in grenades and shot at the gathered civilians using hand weapons and machineguns killing 100 men, women and children, afterwards they carried an artillery shell into the church and detonated it destroying the interior.

Thats how nailing polish children to the doors looked in practice: Polish kid

I'm not going to post actuall pictures they're too drastic even for me.
OP aphrodisiac 11 | 2,441
3 Aug 2010 #86
You're absulutely right, 1938 was the first year when ukrainian nationalism reared its head showing its true face, this was the year when ukrainian fascists first abused polish civilians

where? anywhere?

It is, in so much as Catholics were forced to convert to the Church of England and Catholic churches were burnt down and monastories had their roofs removed (the building was no long able to be used - hence the reason you find so many ruins of old monastories in the UK)

looks like the religious conversion was a political tool to re-establish power.
Sokrates 8 | 3,346
3 Aug 2010 #87
where? anywhere

This might interest you:
...

A little movie about how ukrainians massacred a trainload of polish civilians in the woods.

lukrecja.wordpress.com/2010/02/05/zbrodnie-oun-upa/

Members of the polish family murdered by ukrainians.
...

A polish woman bayoneted by ukrainians. A ruined polish village in which ukrainians murdered 600 Poles, it was the first of many accounts where children would be nailed to the trees.
OP aphrodisiac 11 | 2,441
3 Aug 2010 #88
source: en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Massacres_of_Poles_in_Volhynia#Number_of_victims

Beginning in 1937, the Polish government in Volhynia initiated an active campaign to use religion as a tool for Polonization and to forcibly convert the Orthodox population to Roman Catholicism.[21] Over 190 Orthodox churches were destroyed and 150 converted to Roman Catholic ones.[22] Remaining Orthodox churches were forced to use the Polish language in their sermons. In August 1939, the last remaining Orthodox church in the Volhynian capital of Lutsk was converted to a Roman Catholic one by decree of the Polish government.[21]

By 1938, thousands of Polish colonists and war veterans were encouraged to settle in Volhynia and Galicia. This number is estimated at 17,700 in Volhynia alone by Polish historians.[23] Ukrainian sources estimated the total number of Polish inhabitants in both Galicia and Volhynia at 300,000 including the 1930s settlers.[24] The short presence of the settlers, as almost all were forcibly expelled by the Soviets to Siberia,ignited further anti-Polish sentiment among the locals.[24]

Sokrates, I will ask again: you are showing me material from 1943, 44, yet you mention year 1938.
Sokrates 8 | 3,346
3 Aug 2010 #89
Several generations of a polish family murder by ukrainians, mother,father, grandparents and small children.

After breaking the legs of a polish infant the child would often be thrown into the well.

3 polish children disembowelled while still alive then murdered by ukrainians.
vetala - | 382
3 Aug 2010 #90
Sokrates

Why do you keep bringing up the events in Wołyń when the discussion isn't about "Who was worse during WWII" but about the religious repercussions in the Second Polish Republic? Or should we also not be allowed to talk about German antrocities in occupied Poland because Germans were later victims of brutal expulsions? If you want to discuss Wołyń, then I advise you to make a separate thread (although I must say that it would be more practical if this thread wasn't just about the desacration of churches but also more general, about nationalistic policies in interwar Poland)


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