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Future of Polish-Ukrainian relations



Bobko 2 | 56    
29 Mar 2017  #1

In recent months, there have been several hard "bumps" in the usually friendly relations between post-Communist Poland and Ukraine.

A quick search brings up a mass of recent events, like:

An RPG attack on the Polish Consulate in Lutsk
politico.eu/article/polish-consulate-in-ukraine-attacked-with-grenade-launcher/

Ukraine banning entry into the country to the mayor of Przemysl, after comments he made in Lviv re: the Volhynian massacre
112.international/ukraine-top-news/poland-threatens-ukraine-with-serious-consequences-for-przemysl-mayor-entry-ban-13431.html

The Sejm voting to qualify the Volyn massacre as a genocide (to great irritation in official Kiev)
rferl.org/a/poland-parliament-declares-volyn-massacres-/27874252.html

I can continue the list with more local incidents involving private citizens, but in general it seems that not all is well under the surface.

Ukraine views Poland as its greatest ally inside the EU, and as a valuable counterweight to Russian domination. It would be curious to hear a Polish perspective on where they think these relations are going, and whether or not Ukraine's perspective is objective or delusional. Is Ukraine just a pawn that Poland needs for poking Russia in the ribs, or is there more substance to the relationship?

small edit: Ukraine is chalking up the attack on the consulate, and other incidents to Russian provocations. It doesn't seem far-fetched that Russians could be trying to destabilize the friendship between Ukraine and Poland. Thoughts?


gregy741 3 | 936    
29 Mar 2017  #2

where they think these relations are going

we are bond to be close friends,but not for the good reason.kinda enemy of my enemy is my friend.its acctually weird that those ukra nationalist ended up in Polands arms,and polish PIS nursing ukra nazis.lolyou see them images of kaczynski standing next to bandera flag.

its all silly. i would like ti see Poland leaving western caliphate kolchoz and forging commonwealth with Belarus and Ukraine.kinda federal state... next move is to create lose union with visegrad states,moldova,armenia,serbia croatia.. that would be sweet
OP Bobko 2 | 56    
29 Mar 2017  #3

leaving western caliphate kolchoz and forging commonwealth with Belarus and Ukraine.

Russia has been building a "Union State" with Belarus since 1996:
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Union_State

This is above and beyond the framework of the CIS or Eurasian Union. Of course, when Lukashenko inevitably leaves all bets are off, but I would think that the Union State project will survive both Lukashenko and Putin.

Armenia is perhaps Russia's most loyal satrap, depending as they do, on the Russian military to defend them from the Azerbaijanis (Russia, incidentally, supplies weapons systems to both, and AZ is the one that can actually pay hard cash - go figure...).

Literally half of Moldova's working age male population works in Russia. In addition to that, Russia is the largest market for Moldovan exports, which nobody wants in Europe (Moldovan wine anyone?).

Good luck getting Serbia and Croatia together into anything! When they meet each other abroad they are friendly enough with each other, but on a state level there is so much bad blood between the two that it will be decades before one can talk of any union.

So it seems that out of the old Warsaw Pact only Ukraine is a good candidate for alliance building.

edit: Warsaw Pact countries not already in the EU or Nato
OP Bobko 2 | 56    
29 Mar 2017  #4

lolyou see them images of kaczynski standing next to bandera flag.

Lol, I thought you were joking about this....

But here it is:

Kaczynski - Bandera

On the left is the leader of Ukraine's Svoboda party, Oleh Tyahnybok, who is basically a modern-day Nazi.

EDIT: ehhh, looking more closely at this photo it looks very much photoshopped....
gregy741 3 | 936    
29 Mar 2017  #5

yea..slavic world divided.but gotta start from somewhere.wonder if there is any sentiment for commonwealth left in belarus.
i use to work with few guys from belarus here in London.they were proud and fascinated about commonwealth.what if Lukashenka lose post and Belorussian turn west? then we should turn to the east.we castrated them from common history,and erased ruthenians from it.but hughe part of most patriotic grand duchy of Lithuania were ruthenians. Ukraine is more problematic.they will see any close ties with Poland as a threat to them in the long run.

fok western world..its dying..its dead.
culture is dead, no future there. Britain is right to run away from that insanity.

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Union_State

yea..Poland lost that struggle to unite all ruthenians under commonwealth badly.guess religion was biggest factor.and our polish warcholstwo

So it seems that out of the old Warsaw Pact only Ukraine is a good candidate for alliance building.

good start.tho they will need to clean their house first.nazis and oligarchs out.
am telling you EU is dead man walking..need someone with vision and think about alternative. i like how visegrad group getting closer everyday.
OP Bobko 2 | 56    
29 Mar 2017  #6

yea..slavic world divided.

i like how visegrad group getting closer everyday.

Magyars are not Slavs.
Lyzko 15 | 2,938    
29 Mar 2017  #7

Nor are Romanians or Albanians, yet there has been a considerable overlay of Slavic in their respective languages, particularly Romanian:-)
OP Bobko 2 | 56    
29 Mar 2017  #8

considerable overlay of Slavic in their respective languages, particularly Romanian:-)

That's very interesting! I wasn't aware.

Do you think you could provide some examples?
Lyzko 15 | 2,938    
29 Mar 2017  #9

Well, in the latter, the word for "yes" is "Da", the word for "time" (??) is of Slavic origin, I think. Honestly, I can't provide immediate example, copious though as they are. Take my word by consulting any source, on line, off line, bottom line (LOL) and you'll find plenty of 'em, rest assured!
OP Bobko 2 | 56    
29 Mar 2017  #10

Thanks Lyzko.

Wikipedia, as always, to the rescue:
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Slavic_influence_on_Romanian

Seems extensive. But also, it seems that Romanian influenced many Slavic languages in the vicinity as well.

Edit: I thought these were interesting:

slavă - "glory"
bogat - "rich"
boier - "nobleman", cf. BG bolyarin
topor - "axe"
dragoste - "love", cf. SC "draga" ("beloved")
Lyzko 15 | 2,938    
29 Mar 2017  #11

?? Actually, more the reverse, not to even begin to mention the vast influences in vocabulary in Hungarian, Romanian, and Albanian from Greek and Turkish!
Small wonder however; Greece and much of Eastern Europe (including Austria) was occupied by the Turks for some time until King Jan Sobieski drove them out of Europe:-))
OP Bobko 2 | 56    
29 Mar 2017  #12

Well...

A very large part continued to live under Ottoman rule for a few more centuries after Mr. Sobieski.

Its after the Crimean War in the 1850s when the final parts began to break free. So yes, Turkish influence lasted for almost 400 years in some places.
Lyzko 15 | 2,938    
29 Mar 2017  #13

Correct as well, Bobko!

Did you also know that the long extinct Gothic tongue was still spoken in isolation in the Crimean Peninsula as late as the late 18th century?
OP Bobko 2 | 56    
29 Mar 2017  #14

You know what - I didn't know that! It blows my mind that a Germanic dialect was spoken in Crimea so recently. Wow!

I imagined some Latin/Medieval Italian might have survived because of the very long Genoese control of the peninsula in the heyday of the trading republics, but Gothic... that's interesting.
Lyzko 15 | 2,938    
29 Mar 2017  #15

It shouldn't have blown your mind that much, after all, Gothic hegemony extended way beyond the borders of continental Europe:-)
OP Bobko 2 | 56    
29 Mar 2017  #16

It shouldn't have blown your mind that much

:)))

In my defense, look at what the Wikipedia article about the Crimean Goths says: "They were the least-powerful, least-known, and almost paradoxically, the longest-lasting of the Gothic communities."

Least-powerful, least-known - can I be forgiven for missing this in history class? :)
Lyzko 15 | 2,938    
29 Mar 2017  #17

Forgiven, but not forgotten:-)
lol
OP Bobko 2 | 56    
29 Mar 2017  #18

Seems they were a sleepy bunch. wikiquote - "Theodoric the Great failed to rouse Crimean Goths to support his war in Italy." Guys missed the road-trip of a lifetime)

Correction: not lifetime, but millenium
Lyzko 15 | 2,938    
29 Mar 2017  #19

Well, now that Putin's annexed Crimea, guess all that stuff's basically on the back burner, bud!
OP Bobko 2 | 56    
29 Mar 2017  #20

Are you referring to history? In that case you are wrong.

Among other things he is excellent at, Vladimir Vladimirovich Putin is also one of the world's greatest archaeologists.

Evidence this picture:


  • Putin retrieved these two Ancient Greek amphorae from the bottom of the Black Sea, just after his first dive!
Lyzko 15 | 2,938    
29 Mar 2017  #21

Being sarcastic, I take it:-)
LamaEmm - | 1    
16 May 2017  #22

Merged:

Poroshenko: Visa - free travel is much more than a simplified way of crossing the border



Much more, Petro, much more... hehe
world.24-my.info/poroshenko-visa-free-regime-for-overcoming-the-consequences-of-the-pereiaslav-rada/



delphiandomine 77 | 15,462    
1 Jun 2017  #23

Merged:

Poland arrests and deports pro-Ukrainian, anti-Russian Freedom Fighter



Perhaps in a sign of the times, Poland deported an Austrian man. He was fighting against the Russian forces in Eastern Ukraine, and was accused by pro-Russian elements in Austria of having committed war crimes. Those allegations clearly had no basis in reality.

houstonchronicle.com/news/crime/article/War-crimes-suspect-in-Ukraine-conflict-extradited-11182112.php

Clearly an absolute joke by all accounts. He should have been received as a hero in Poland for fighting against the unlawful Russian occupation in Eastern Ukraine, but instead, Poland treated him like a common criminal and extradited him instead. Does this government have no dignity whatsoever?

One can only wonder why the Poles took the Russian view of things rather than the far more credible Ukrainian view.
gregy741 3 | 936    
1 Jun 2017  #24

treated him like a common criminal

he was involved in executing wounded pows you idiot
Crow 133 | 5,623    
1 Jun 2017  #25

One can only wonder why the Poles took the Russian view of things rather than the far more credible Ukrainian view.

I presume, its not that are Poles especially fond of Russian view but, Poles now understand methods of EU, too and, knowing that EU sponsor Nazis in Ukraine
delphiandomine 77 | 15,462    
2 Jun 2017  #26

[Moved from]: Polish thugs attack helpless Ukrainians

A pretty dreadful story, this one. Ukrainian workers living in the town of Chwaszczyno (near the Tri-City agglomeration) were attacked by drunken Polish thugs late at night. They were assaulted, and the drunken mob accused them of "stealing jobs" and told them to "go home". They were attacked with all sorts of weapons, including broken battles and bats. The same thugs also attacked the owner of the company that employed the Ukrainians.

More about this story (in Polish):
trojmiasto.wyborcza.pl/trojmiasto/7,35612,21889822,w-chwaszczynie-zaatakowano-dom-w-ktorym-mieszkaja-ukraincy.html?utm_source=facebook.com&utm_medium=SM&utm_campaign=FB_Gazeta_Wyborcza

Disgusting. The rise in attacks against foreigners during this government is absolutely and completely unacceptable. The government has blood on its hands.

It's also worth pointing out that they weren't taking jobs from locals, as there was an acute labour shortage that the Ukrainians were filling. One can only express surprise at the way that the Polish government was quick to go to Egypt (or the UK) when there was a death there, but they turn a blind eye to violence in Poland.
Harry 74 | 13,199    
2 Jun 2017  #27

The rise in attacks against foreigners during this government is absolutely and completely unacceptable.

Yes, and attacks like that are becoming more and more common. On Wednesday this week I was getting my hair cut by a charming Ukrainian hairdresser yesterday about it and she said that things are starting to get bad in Warsaw that when she and her Ukrainian friends are out in the evenings they speak to each other in the street in English rather than Ukrainian or Russian. Apparently speaking either of those two languages draws the wrong sort of attention and even speaking accented Polish can lead to problems.

She did tell me a rather amusing story about her boyfriend. Apparently a couple of weeks ago he was visiting a mate in Wroclaw, which as you know has more problems with racist morons than most cities in Poland, and had some time to kill before his mate finished work so he decided to enjoy the weather in a beer garden. Three morons heard him speaking to the waitress in good but accented Polish and started giving him the whole 'Polska dla Polakow' routine before jumping him three on one (typical nationalist heroes). Unfortunately for them he's a kick-boxing instructor and served on the frontline in Donetsk (where they're both from) fighting Russians, so he promptly kicked seven shades of sh!t out of all three of them.
Dirk diggler 3 | 254    
2 Jun 2017  #28

Eh poles will get use to Ukrainians it just takes time. Poles are pretty set in their ways and hesitant to change so when a million Ukrainians come in it may raise alarms amongst some - namely the ones who don't understand that more often than not these 1 or 2 mil Ukrainians are a net benefit to poland. Most of the jobs that Ukrainians are taking are ones that poles don't really want to work anyway.

This would be like if Mexicans beat up some Guatemalens for mowing lawns in Mexico city suburbs when all the local Mexicans moved to the us to pursue similar low wage low skill entry level type work. But yes poland does a labor shortage for low wage low skill type jobs as the polish workers have left to pursue similar type work abroad especially in the us and uk.

I don't see though why your saying the government is complicit in this and has blood on their hands. First off. Polish citizens were killed in uk along with dozens others which united politicians from the deceaseds' home countries - the article says no one was killed and none of the injuries were life threatening. Should the polish government also come visit me whenever I get in a fight too? Maybe if szydlo comes to visit me I can turn her nasty frown upside down. Shell have to wait till I'm done with the interns though.

Typically the saying 'blood on hands' is used when someone was killed directly or indirectly because of a persons or people's decisions. Second, drunken idiots yelling 'you took my job' can be found all around the world under all sorts of administrations - US under Obama towards Mexicans, 70s Germany when Turks started coming, post 2004 UK towards Poles, Romanians, etc. Even in Mongolia locals are wearing swastikas as a protest to the Chinese rapidly buying up prime mining real estate. I don't recall any of the politicians from these countries telling citizens flat out to kill people or even intimidate them or beat them up. Hell I've been accosted before for speaking polish

Actually, the polish government continues to allow Ukrainians to work in poland and continues to issue work permits. You're comparing a terrorist attack where dozens died - not just injured by a beer bottle - to a couple drunks with an iq equal to their shoe size.

Also the police were called, arrived, took ids, fingerprints, etc. I skimmed the article but I didn't see where it said they were actually arrested anyone though it sounds like they were only detained. Well they should 've been arrested. This isn't really the governments fault but more the local cops for not doing more. I highly doubt the local police captain has a direct line to Kaczynski or the minister of justice.

Hence I wouldn't say it isnts 'this governments' fault but more so the local cops for handling it inappropriately. Ukranians aren't being attacked daily, I haven't heard of any hate crimes against Ukrainians resulting in murder, or things of the sort which would then be escalated to the appropriate levels. Keep in mind there were plenty of racist attacks and marches against Islam when po wanted to take a thousand or two m.e./African migrants with some dark skinned people beat up too. You can hardly blame po for the fact that some Turk Moroccan or Ghanaian was attacked just because they held the presidency or whatever.These type of incidents happen everyday all over the world regardless of who is in charge. By that logic, Merkel has blood on her hands because some locals burned down a migrant center. On the other hand, the other side would argue that Merkel has blood on her hands because of her migrant policies but that's for a longer discussion and outside the scope. A small scale attack isn't something the government can really prevent (aside from perhaps establishing martial law) and certainly pis, po, merkel, etc don't encourage such violence. The government can barely stop murders let alone attacks. Don't believe me? Come to chicago. It may not be Ukrainian vs pole but rather disciple vs psycho vs maniac vs deuce vs king vs gangster vs royal vs Gaylord vs 100 of others. You guys are lucky you don't have to deal with that in Poland. You don't even know how many times I've been on the highway and two cars will seemingly randomly start ramming and shooting each other. I don't think anyone would say its trumps, Rahm emmanuel, etc or anyone else's fault except for these idiots. However if the cops pulled them over and merely detained them without a charge and arrest then its a big policing issue.
If pis wanted Ukrainians gone they would stop issuing work permits, cancel the permits of those who have them, deport those individuals, and quietly allow for people to assist them in these actions. That has not happened so I don't quite see how pis has blood on its hands or what it can do aside from perhaps recommending to the regional authorities to increase police patrols.

If the Obama administration held a press conference or if congress met each time some red neck attacked a Mexican or Muslim or whoever nothing would ever get done.. Then again it appears they dont get much done either. However, when some idiot murders people of a different sex, race, religion etc within their country politicians are the first to publicly denounce such violent actions regardless of their personal feeling about such a situation.

Btw nice to see u back why'd u get banned anyway?
Dirk diggler 3 | 254    
2 Jun 2017  #29

@Harry

Hahaha that's awesome. Like they say never judge a book by its cover. Nothing better than when someone gets their a$$ kicked when they deserved it. The worst is that the same pu$$ies will call the cops on you crying like a lil baby.

Ya I get that same routine when I travel around the us to places where there aren't many foreigners. The funny part is that its usually like a cashier or guy mopping a floor who says something like 'this is America - speak english' or 'go back to your country' ill usually ask them, in perfect non accented english, if they're wordly enough to know a language besides english and offer them a brief history lesson on how unless you're a native american, you too are the descendant of European immigrants.
plainfacts    
2 Jun 2017  #30

Ukraine is a shitfest waiting to happen, the EU and Americans have very different views on the future of Ukraine. The Azov Battalion through Andriy Yevhenovych Biletsky are becoming more prominent in Ukrainian politics.Lets not forget Azov are Neo Nazis and are made up of more than 50% foreign fighters with extreme right wing views.




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