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Future of Polish-Ukrainian relations



Harry 81 | 13,431    
4 Jun 2017  #61

Russians and Serbs - great georgraphic distance which obscures realities. The two barely knew anything about each other.

Presumably Russians and Serbs both know about the other's habit of invading and attempting to occupy neighbouring countries and liked that. Poland, on the other hand, was for a long time occupied by Russia and so Poles do not approve of Serbia invading and occupying neighbouring countries and raping/murdering people there (apart from the tiny minority of Poles who are stupid enough to think that raping/murdering people is cool).


OP Bobko 5 | 100    
4 Jun 2017  #62

Poland, on the other hand, was for a long time occupied by Russia and so Poles do not approve of Serbia invading and occupying neighbouring countries and raping/murdering people there (apart from the tiny minority of Poles

Believe you me Harry, if Poles had the wherewithal to invade and successfully occupy Russia (once they came pretty damn close), they would have no such qualms about waging war on neighbors. Instead, they are perpetually butthurt. Regarding it being a minority, just look at the pages of this forum, many of which are full of rather scary nationalist talk.

Finally, and I'm really playing devil's advocate here now, unlike Poland and Serbia which are virtually mono-ethnic countries, Russia has a centuries old history of being a multi-ethnic and multiconfessional state. More than 200 nationalities, and a sizeable Muslim and until recently Jewish minority.

All I'm trying to say is, don't make Poles out to be saints. They did their fair share of invading and looting while they had the strength.
OP Bobko 5 | 100    
4 Jun 2017  #63

Off-topic, but funny Russian meme about Poles:

Pilsudski

Translation: Such different Poles
Crow 137 | 5,910    
4 Jun 2017  #64

Hallowed are the New Commonwealth.

I would be clear here. We Serbians would be satisfied to hold financial center. Thank you.
mafketis 16 | 4,855    
5 Jun 2017  #65

I'm sure you Serbians would, but that would be stupid given the massive levels of Serbian corruption.

Back on topic please
Crow 137 | 5,910    
5 Jun 2017  #66

Until new Commonwealth become reality, we all would change for the better. Poles would stop to adore western Europe, Ukrainians would expel banderists and we Serbians would end corruption.
Dirk diggler 5 | 1,433    
5 Jun 2017  #67

Poland still isn't a country where everyone is treated fair under law.. However its gotten far better though. Now its more related to business and property disputes rather than violent crime. Many poles including myself still feel there is a bit of corruption and bribery in Poland. As one poster said before 'kombinowac' is a favorite past time of poles.

As far as Ukrainians go, I wonder if the Ukrainians will continue to come to Poland and remain there now that they have visa free travel. Id say yes because the culture is similar and many Ukrainians feel very much at home in Poland. However the permits the government issued are temporary so they could be asked to leave in the future. Personally I think the Ukrainians are a net benefit to Poland and its economy. Plus its a good bargaining chip with the eu since Poland can say it took in a million plus Ukrainian migrants/refugees.
OP Bobko 5 | 100    
7 Jun 2017  #68

Plus its a good bargaining chip with the eu since Poland can say it took in a million plus Ukrainian migrants/refugees.

Good point! However, I'm not sure Ukrainians will like being equated with refugees from Syria and North Africa. On the other hand, who's asking them...
Dirk diggler 5 | 1,433    
8 Jun 2017  #69

Ukranians came to Poland asking for work and a new country to live in, not the other way around. Besides, id think most Ukrainians and poles in Poland are on the same page as far as migration from distant cultures and religions is concerned.

That's one thing though that szydlo is doing wrong. Instead of making a speech on how Europe is falling apart due to migrants, how Poland won't be blackmailed, how Poland will rather be sanctioned than take migrants, etc she's just begging the eu to impose financial penalties or at the very least cut off eu funds. This language doesn't appeal to her more liberal counterparts in the eu and they make seek to punish Poland just because of her language.

If she was smart she would instead explain how Poland has taken in a million refugees/migrants despite having a far smaller population and economy than Germany. No one could say 'no you didnt take in any migrants/refugees' because the 1 mil work per.it she can then counter by calling those people racist for not considering Ukrainians as migrants or refugees when they too are escaping a protracted war and fleeing poverty - just like Syrians and Iraqis. To further illustrate her point she can state that Poland did allow in a large number of Chechens also - far more than the 2k or whatever the eu is demanding.
Crow 137 | 5,910    
8 Jun 2017  #70

Instead of making a speech on how Europe is falling apart due to migrants, how Poland won't be blackmailed, how Poland will rather be sanctioned than take migrants

If she was smart she would instead explain how Poland has taken in a million refugees/migrants despite having a far smaller population and economy than Germany.

She is smart. Its intentional mistake. I am sure. Guaranteed. Why? I can`t answer that with certainty. Its how things function. I sow that in my own country. When was necessary that politicians tall sane thing, when even simple peasant could tell it what is sane, politician made wrong statement and country was penalized.

In this case, must be that intentional gaf have purpose to leave maneuverable space for punishment of the country. Why? I suppose somebody pressuring Shidlo to speak so. Who? That I don`t know. In any case somebody orchestrate things.

I am worried (no, not because of Shidlo. If not her it would be somebody`s elses gaf; I just worry because I see this scenario that I already sow, now repeating in Poland; intentional mistakes of politicians).

On the other side, we see that Trump makes intentional mistakes. So, maybe its not wrong. Its maybe good. Anyway, I see, its trend.
Dirk diggler 5 | 1,433    
8 Jun 2017  #71

I'm not saying that she isn't smart. If she was stupid she would have never made it to the post of prime minister. However, the rhetoric she used when addressing parliament is not going to sit well with her counterparts in western Europe. For one, an ardent supporter of migration quotas can be upset by szydlos language and use his or her power and influence to sway his colleageus, especially those with similar views, to act against Poland and szydlo. Thus she will have to look towards the visegard for allies, which is fine, while deterring how to come up with billions of dollars that can suddenly vanish from polish coffers, which isn't fine.

Is taking in 2,000 migrants from Muslim and African countries worth losing billions of dollars in eu funds worth it? I don't know.. That's for the polish voters and their elected officials to decide. However, I predict that they would rather not have migrants than keep the tap flowing. Many Poles complain that they personally haven't benefited from eu funds but nonetheless this money definitely helped build up a modern road and rail system.

Hence I think szydlo could've been more diplomatic in her language and point out that the Ukrainian migrant crisis is overlooked and under reported. She can explain and have her staff write a report explaining how Poland took in ukranians, chechens, a few Georgians, as well as a few Iraqis (most of whom left for Germany) and issued them work permits and list any other ways that Poland or even ngos and charities or even the church helped these groups. She can equate Poland with german policies and point out that despite having a far smaller population and far smaller economy, they opened the door to a million foreigners. Then she can turn the tables by gently implying that these countries didn't help the Ukrainians but Poland did and that itd be wrong to not consider certain Ukrainians as refugees when they too are fleeing war and poverty. Not all Ukrainians are fleeing war - only a small percent are just like the migrants that came to Germany. Its said that less than a quarter are from Syria. (Why there are able bodied men running away to Europe instead of fighting for their country is beyond me but whatever) She can say that's fine - Germany and the west chose to help those from Africa and the middle east, while Poland made the deicion to help those from ukraine, chechnya, georgia, etc.
Crow 137 | 5,910    
8 Jun 2017  #72

I think that somebody who pretend to be Polish friendly tries to confuse Poles. Giving advises. They did it same to Slobodan Milosevic. Beware. This with EU-Poland`s conflict more and more reminds me of EU-Yugoslavian and later EU-Serbian conflict. As you know, Yugoslavia is no more. Serbia? Just out of coma.
OP Bobko 5 | 100    
8 Jun 2017  #73

@Dirk diggler

You make a great point Dirk. It's astonishing that this narrative is not being promoted more. On many levels, one can argue that Poland is at the forefront (behind only suicidal Germany) of dealing with the current humanitarian crises developing on Europe's peripheries.

As regards the Ukrainians themselves, I agreee with you that a very small part are actual refugees. Most people that have relocated from the occupied areas of the Donbass resettled inside Ukraine or moved to Russia (depending on their beliefs and biases). The migrants coming into Poland are for the most part people from parts of the Ukraine not touched by war. However, one cannot deny that the general situation in Ukraine which is driving the migrants to emigrate (collapse of institutions, rampant corruption, explosion of violent crime) are due in no small part due to the conflict in the east fueled by Russian weapons and money.
gregy741 3 | 981    
9 Jun 2017  #74

s taking in 2,000 migrants from Muslim and African countries worth losing billions of dollars in eu funds worth it?

first..what 2000 are you talking about? first round agreed was 7k ,and that was suppose to be just beginning.the plan was to divide all migrants across EU.potentially millions.add family reunion to this down the road.

second ,who said we will lose billions?doubt commissioners have power to stop funds to Poland,not to mention that Poland will be net payers soon,but Islamic problem will remain forever.and actually those funds are becoming peanuts.some 2 billions euro a year.

this money definitely helped build up a modern road and rail system.

you dont seem to understand,poles would rather walk on mud than have terrorist cockroaches wrecking country.

and point out that the Ukrainian migrant crisis is overlooked and under reported. She can explain and have her staff write a report explaining how Poland took in ukranians

do you really think those crooks in EU dont know that? they dont fkin care.. islamization must be implemented and no arguments will ever gets to their bigoted ,indoctrinated libtard heads.there is no way but say fok off to those maniacs.

you just making a mistake thinking that you can use any reasoning and arguments with those idiots in EU.i remember commie times,and know that you can reason with ideologically fuked up people.waste of time. these are the same people who blame lorries and narrow sidewalks for terrorist attacks ffs
Dirk diggler 5 | 1,433    
9 Jun 2017  #75

It was a theoretical number - 2k 5k 7k whatever.. Plus numbers can always be negotiated.

Second, macron along other with leaders from germany, belgium, etc threatened many different things all related to economics - issuing a per migrant fine, cutting off eu funds, economically sanction Poland We are discussing theoretical ramifications. What actually happens is anyone's guess. They've also thrown around many different inconsistent unclear punishments but all of them are economic.

As a pole, born and raised, I'm well aware that poland would rather pay than accept migrants from the middle east or Africa - I wrote that in my last post. Its up to poles and the polish people to decide what happens in our country and more than likely well chose some financial burden over bringing in people from a totally different culture, religion, and language. We can tighten our belts if need be to protect the homeland. I'm not denying that.

Yes the eu commissars do know about the war in ukraine but they care more about sanctioning Russia rather than the migrants that came out of this crisis. Politicians undoubtedly watch tv and read the news much like anyone else. The migrant crisis from ukraine and even the war itself was rather under reported. The whole focus was and continues to be the war in Syria and Iraq and the refugee crisis from Africa and middle east. They simply didn't care all that much about it - like you said - and I think its simply because it wasn't on the top of their agenda. The leaders in the eu tend to be ignorant (or simply don't care) on many things pertaining to the east whether its our culture, our history, our desire to remain a homogenous catholic country, etc. However, szydlo could've taken the opportunity as a world leader to put some more focus on the Ukrainian conflict as well as all migrants coming from it and explain how much Poland has helped refugees already.
OP Bobko 5 | 100    
10 Jun 2017  #76

This article from the FT says that 1.3 million Ukrainians received temporary work registrations last year, and 116,000 more received longer term work permits. That's quite a bit more than the 1 million figure being discussed on the forums:

ft.com/content/aeda9ebe-3afa-11e7-ac89-b01cc67cfeec

The article also makes clear that unlike Syrians, very few of the Ukrainians are refugees fleeing from the war torn east, with only 6,000 claiming asylum since 2014. The majority are working-age economic migrants attracted by the prospect of earning fives times as much as they can in the Ukraine doing the same job.

The article cites a Polish-born economist at Barclays in London, who says the Ukrainians are filling the same types of jobs that Poles fill in Germany - mainly in the service industry and hospitality trade, and that the influx has slowed wage growth in Poland.

Different interviewees express different opinions on the question. One government adviser is quoted as saying that it is absurd that's Poland spends vast amounts of money training people that leave, and then has to educate newcomers from the East. Others have a more positive view, like the Foreign Minister who argues it makes it easier to deflect German attacks on the migrants question. Finally, some are concerned that now that they have visa free travel the Ukrainians will stop in poland only briefly before heading further West.
OP Bobko 5 | 100    
13 Jun 2017  #77

Ukrainians Celebrate Visa-Free Travel To EU
rferl.org/amp/28539873.html

Border service reports some 2,555 Ukrainians travel visa-free to EU in first 42 hours
kyivpost.com/ukraine-politics/border-service-reports-2555-ukrainians-travel-visa-free-eu-first-42-hours.html
goofy_the_dog 1 | 33    
14 Jun 2017  #78

Ukraine population about to go down by ten million :-)
OP Bobko 5 | 100    
15 Jun 2017  #79

Ah, Monsieur is an optimist...

Between 1991 and 2016 Ukraine's population went down by almost 10 million without any visa-free help.
Dirk diggler 5 | 1,433    
20 Jun 2017  #80

When I've visited Poland I've found poles are generally accepting of them but some poles kind of view them as 'the help.' Its mainly though because they tend to have lower income type jobs that immigrants have when they first arrive in a country just like poles who settled abroad . I've met very kind ukranians and they speak better polish than me after being there under a year lol
polinv    
20 Jun 2017  #81

How Poles view Ukranians? It depends where they are sitting. In Wroclaw most property developers are using them and they are present in large numbers in the hotel industry. The business owners enjoy the fact that wages can be kept in check, but those working and have had their hours cut due to Ukranians taking their hours aren't too happy. Wages in Poland are growing fast and its a big pull for Ukranians, the first of who are now putting in offers for bedsits and one bed flats rather than renting them. Many will stay and integrate into society, given that their home country looks like being unstable for many years to come.
OP Bobko 5 | 100    
21 Jun 2017  #82

@polinv

I appreciate your post very much. Balanced and informative. It's good to hear "on-the-ground" reports.
OP Bobko 5 | 100    
12 Nov 2017  #83

Looks like a shared hate for Russia isn't enough to keep Ukraine and Poland on friendly terms any longer.

After returning from a recent trip to Lviv, on Nov 2 Polish FM Witold Waszczykowski told TVP1 that "both countries have a different notion of reconciliation." thenews.pl/1/10/Artykul/333194,%E2%80%98AntiPolish%E2%80%99-Ukrainians-may-not-be-allowed-to-cross-border-Polish-FM

He went on to say in that interview that the Ukrainians are basically exploiting Poland, because they know how important they are for Poland's geopolitical security. In response, Waszczykowski announced that unless Ukraine changes it's behavior, official Poland will launch procedures with serious consequences, including banning certain Ukrainian officials entry into Poland.

The reaction in Ukrainian media has been howling. The general consensus seems to be that Poland has taken it's mask off, and is behaving like the magnates of old. Basically pany trying to punish the chlops for raising their heads. Some are talking about how Ukraine now has to fight old imperial masters on two fronts.

In the most recent days the Polish FM's office has actually begun rolling out those travel bans, and the first ban was against Vladimir Vyatrovich, head of the Ukranian National Institute of Historic Memory. This has obviously incensed the Ukrainians even more, making it very hard for their President to make amends with the Polish government without looking like Kaczynski's poodle. So the ****-slinging continued.

Now finally - yesterday, the Polish deputy FM Cichocki told the state broadcaster that Ukraine is pursuing a destructive path in its relations with Poland. He said the current issues in Polish-Ukrainian relations are old, and were raised by previous Sejms not just the current one. These issues include use of Soviet-era terms like Polish occupied territories in relation to certain parts of Western Ukraine, the non-return of property to Polish Roman Catholic churches, the rehabilitation and glorification of the UPA, and insufficient contrition over the question of Katyn. It's not really clear to me how he expects the Ukrainians to apologize for Katyn. Perhaps he misspoke and actually meant Volhyn.

newsweek.pl/polska/polityka/relacje-polska-ukraina-coraz-gorsze-stosunki-polsko-ukrainskie,artykuly,418731,1.html
Ironside 46 | 8,406    
12 Nov 2017  #84

Looks like a shared hate for Russia isn't enough to keep Ukraine and Poland on friendly terms any longer.

You mean both countries have no shared interest? Sure they do, provided Ukraine will behave as a stable country with clearly defined policy. Unfortunaly they fall short of the mark.

The main issue is a question of they historical policy. They are pursuing glorification of Bandera and his Band of Merry Men, one oft he worst scum on Earth at the time when he was competing against Hitler and Stalin and their crew.

His statues peppered all over the Ukraine, streets named after him and his scummy cronies. children in school brainwashed with fairy stories about him and his crew.

Nah, that cannot stand. If Ukraine state want to take this way - good by! Poland need or rather have to reconsider its policy.
---
In fact that Bandera nonsense is a choice. Ukrainians involves in his crimes and their progeny are about 1 to 5% of the current population of the country, those who were supporting them or hold any such a tradition of support I would list at maybe 15-17% of the populace.

Why imposing it on the rest of the population? Why infect them with this kind of virus? It has no future.
It'll isolate Ukraine on the world stage in the long run.. It seems like a very well thought over convert operation by the Putin intelligence. Some useful idiots at play too - no doubt.

The bottom line is that Poland has no interest in nurturing a country where the Bandera ideology gonna be prevalent.
SigSauer 1 | 260    
12 Nov 2017  #85

@Ironside

To be honest the main motivation of a lot of the politicians has been specifically to antagonize Russia. A very good friend of mine works in the Verkhovna Rada as a lawyer and policy analyst. That the Ukrainian MPs have a lack of foresight to the way it antagonizes Poland is more willful ignorance than intentional. For instance, in 2015 it was proposed renaming the street the Russian embassy is on to Bandera Ulitsa (Bandera Street). The other thing that chaps the ass of Russians is tearing down statues of the genocidal murderer Stalin. It really exposes the hypocrisy of Russia, wanting to be the legitimate successor of the Soviet Union for the purposes of a permanent seat on the UN security council, but hilariously enough when Stalin's crimes against humanity are brought up they choose one of two lines, that Stalin was Georgian so it's Georgia's fault(seriously, you cant make up the **** the Moskali come up with), or that the Holodomor (genocide by starving of 7 million Ukrainians) was mere mismanagement of crops by the central government. With that being said, I have friends working for the Polish embassy in Ukraine, and it is still considered their most important diplomatic outpost in the world at present.
LongTermR 1 | 23    
12 Nov 2017  #86

In the event that things go-pear shaped Poland may block visa applications. I bealive everything will be fine at least near future
Dirk diggler 5 | 1,433    
13 Nov 2017  #87

@SigSauer

The Russians, namely Kremlin, will either demonize or praise Stalin and USSR during Stalin's time when it suits them. Beating the Nazis - Stalin and Georgians good. 2008 - Stalin and Georgians are all evil!

Even now with the October Revolution anniversary, the Kremlin didn't really pull out all the stops for parades and rallies and all that like they do for Victory Day.

Ever since oil prices collapsed, Putin has used external threats - NATO, 5th column liberal Russians, Georgia, Ukraine, etc to garner support amongst the Russian populations. Russians genuinely love him though - he has 80%+ approval ratings and that's according to US sources not Kremlin ones.
OP Bobko 5 | 100    
13 Nov 2017  #88

The other thing that chaps the ass of Russians is tearing down statues of the genocidal murderer Stalin.

That's not accurate, to say the least. You're most likely referring to Lenin statues. Most statues of Stalin were torn down in the late 1950s during Khruschev's de-Stalinization era. Those few that remained were all torn down, even in Russia, in those frenzied months in 1991 when the Soviet Union was collapsing. Now there's even a cute park in Moscow where you can go and look at all the old Stalin statues that were torn out of their foundations from squares all around the city.

Now Lenin is a completely different story. Still plenty of statues of him in Russia, Belarus, Moldova, Kyrgyzstan, Armenia, and until recently in Ukraine. It's his statues that the Ukrainians have been tearing down with abandon. And truthfully, there are a lot of butt-hurt Russians who are pissed that the Ukrainians are disrespecting the Leader of the World Revolution.

That being said, there is a weird Stalin-worship revival in Putin's Russia during the last two years, and not all Russians are happy about this. Specifically the millions and millions who had relatives in their family perish during the Stalinist repressions. The Kremlin is trying to subvert his image as a national saviour who kept the country together in one piece, albeit through the use of brutal tactics, in the face of an existential threat, as a way of reminding Russians of the importance of keeping in-line as the country is involved now simultaneously in two wars (Ukraine and Syria) and chafing under Western sanctions. Outside of domestic purposes, Putin has been using Stalin to subtly troll Ukrainians by reminding them that a good third of their country is theirs because Stalin cut it off from Poland. Ukrainians only seem to remember the Holodomor, and prefer to imagine that Lviv simply materialized inside Ukraine on one fine day.
OP Bobko 5 | 100    
19 Nov 2017  #89

Latest developments:

m.dw.com/en/poland-and-ukraine-in-spat-over-wwii-exhumations/a-41440197




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