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Future of Polish-Ukrainian relations


mafketis 37 | 10935
23 Oct 2018 #91
How do you see the future of Polish-Ukrainian relations?

I don't foresee any major changes... lots of Ukrainians have worked and lived in Poland and seen for themselves that there is a non-Soviet non-Russian way of ordering a Slavic society.

Ukrainians generate remarkably little social tension and the countries are on about as good terms as is probable.
Once a people have learned they can change governments they're not going to be rushing back to Russian style authoritarianism.
Vlad1234 17 | 889
27 Oct 2018 #92
lots of Ukrainians have worked and lived in Poland and seen for themselves that there is a non-Soviet non-Russian way of ordering a Slavic society.

Not only Poland. Lot of Ukrainians also worked in Czech republic or Slovakia or visited them. Those are even better examples. Not forget also uniqueness of the Balkan Slavs.
mafketis 37 | 10935
28 Oct 2018 #93
Those are even better examples.

Yes the three countries (Czech, Slovakia, Poland) are all better models than Russia

Not forget also uniqueness of the Balkan Slavs.

Not much in the ways of useful models there...
Crow 162 | 9472
28 Oct 2018 #94
Polish-Ukrainian relations depend solely on western Europe and Vatican. I doubt that will official Poland ever be able to arrange its relations with Ukraine as it suits to Polish interests. Germany would want that, Vatican would want this, France will be wise, etc, etc.... all to the time when neither Poland, neither Ukraine exist or actually exist as areas within soup of something.

Don`t you realize real reason why did Russia ever even allowed for formation of Ukrainian state and intervene only for the regions where is Russia clear to have influence. Russia drowning line. Rest? Rest is lost not only to Russia but for Poland, too. Man, Poland is lost to Poles, after all and Poles even don`t know it yet.
Vlad1234 17 | 889
28 Oct 2018 #95
Not much in the ways of useful models there...

Slovenia? (I don't care about their difference from Russia in particular).
mafketis 37 | 10935
28 Oct 2018 #96
Slovenia?

Maybe the closest, but still lots of problems (from a former sort of colleague who lived there many years) too many unresponsive, incompetent governments in a row.

I've only been to Ljubljana, which is a very pleasant city (more bookshops per capita than anywhere else I've seen... and I have a weird affection for their oddball language) but it's also too different a culture area from Ukraine to be useful as a model.
Vlad1234 17 | 889
28 Oct 2018 #97
I think Slovenian may take the third place among Slavic languages in sense of beauty after Russian and Ukrainian. What do you think about that? I like Slovenian culture too. Do you think one day Ukraine may borrow culture from Western Slavs?
mafketis 37 | 10935
29 Oct 2018 #98
The population is slowly westernizing (a process that sort of dates to the orange revolution when they learned they can have an influence on the government, an influence that the Russian population, modern serfs, neither has nor wants).

It's a slow process and beset with lots of problems but it is progressiing and the western slavic countries can be some help. It's obvious how much better off Poland is outside the Russian sphere of influence than inside it, and that's the immediate aim, to stop being a Russian vassal state.
Spike31 3 | 1637
29 Oct 2018 #99
Do you think one day Ukraine may borrow culture from Western Slavs?

First they have to officially and practically renounce the cult of Stefan Bandera and UPA, just like Germany renounced Adolf Hitler and NSDAP.

They can't follow the cult of mass murderers from UPA/OUN and also be perceived as a civilized society at the same time.
Vlad1234 17 | 889
29 Oct 2018 #100
When I lived in Ukraine decades ago I didn't remark there would be a cult of anyone in Ukraine. The vast majority of population was and is obsessed with completely different daily problems. For example SURVIVAL.
Vlad1234 17 | 889
3 Nov 2018 #101
First they have to officially and practically renounce the cult of Stefan Bandera and UPA, just like Germany renounced Adolf Hitler and NSDAP.

According to international standards in order for government to renounce something officially, an extensive court processes need to take the place on which proves and evidence have to be provided. Exactly like it took place in Nuremberg, Germany.
Crow 162 | 9472
3 Nov 2018 #102
Poland won`t be capable to influence that what remain of Ukraine. Germany and France are faster. Vatican, too. Sure, Russia would rather desire to work with Poland but who gives a sh** what Russia desire. Russia was for compromise, wanted Ukraine out of NATO, even Ukraine within EU was alright. Russia wanted Ukraine as bridge between Polish and Russian interests. Russia with mediation of Serbs allowed for POLUKRBAT to happen but, then comes the maiden. You Poles can rise monument to POLUKRBAT as memory that you had influence in Ukraine. Now it goes to Germany and France. In such a situation, sure, ethnic Russians do have right to escape from it.

So, my Polish sisters and brothers you better talk of Poland within Magna Franco-Germania. Don`t dream of anything out of it. You are well enslaved.

Or, you maybe have backbone? You want to pay the price?
Strzelec35 26 | 848
13 Aug 2021 #103
Whats wrong with Ukrainians? i think they're much better people than Bulgarians for one.
mafketis 37 | 10935
13 Aug 2021 #104
Whats wrong with ukrainians?

Nothing especially, but they don't fit in anybody else's box and Ukrainian nationalism can only exist at the expense of other, older nationalisms (esp Polish and Russian). The language is too close to Polish for Russians (who can be quite deranged in their hatred of it) and too much like Russian for Poles (who don't have strong feelings about it). On the other hand Poland has more direct and recent experience with the worst strains of old school Ukrainian nationalism.

Ironically, Putin has done more for Ukrainian nationalism than any Ukrainian since WWII though it's far removed from earlier versions.
Strzelec35 26 | 848
13 Aug 2021 #105
it makes sense tho. How would you feel if you had to be some serf or working class all your life for some polish landlords. Ever watch the movie braveheart? what they did sort of makes sense and their nationalism as well. I mean how can Poland complain about some Yalta conference or Katyn when they were starved to death?
Crow 162 | 9472
13 Aug 2021 #106
Ukrainian nationalism can only exist at the expense of other, older nationalisms (esp Polish and Russian)

If realistic, without foreign meddling, Ukrainian nationalism would limit itself on those who feel to be Ukrainian. Or would simple disolve onto Russian, Polish or Serbian nationalism, actually rather patriotism.
yjmbestboy
27 Jan 2022 #107
@Bobko
The Armenian people are very anti-Russian, but the country is threatened by turkey and Azerbaijan and has to compromise with Russia, although the Armenian government and people still want to drive out the Russian garrison, and hope to attract American or French troops to protect Armenia from aggression.

@Dirk diggler
Stalin was not a Georgian, he was an Ossetian, and the Ossetians were accomplices brought by the Russian invasion of the Caucasus and then settled there, but the Ossetians were from the Turkic Mongol lineage and only stayed in the Caucasus for a long time and mixed with some Caucasian natives, but the Ossetians still had many even obvious Mongolian Turkic characteristics, such as Stalin's super large head is a typical Mongolian feature, which is completely different from the traditional Caucasus appearance.
johnny reb 48 | 7443
27 Jan 2022 #108
but the country is threatened by turkey and Azerbaijan

The United States should not be reluctant to oppose Turkey directly when Ankara undermines U.S. policy.
Crow 162 | 9472
27 Jan 2022 #109
How I just read... The Nazi Papal State of Croatia probably enters war with Russia if Russia ``attack`` Ukraine.

I told you papacy destroyed their brainz

> b92/info/vesti/index.php?yyyy=2022&mm=01&dd=27&nav_category=167&nav_id=2095771
yjmbestboy
27 Jan 2022 #110
@johnny reb
In 2016, he almost succeeded (killing Erdogan), but Putin did not want to lose Erdogan and took some measures to help him stabilize the regime, and the successful cooperation between the two demons usually hurts the good people physically and mentally.

Indeed, the United States should bluntly condemn the erstwhile erdogan's government for its failure to govern, which can somewhat inhibit his will to hurt those who were once against him but are very kind.
johnny reb 48 | 7443
27 Jan 2022 #111
@yjmbestboy
You seem to be well informed.
We need more intellectual members here so why don't you become a member ?
What country are you posting from ?
yjmbestboy
27 Jan 2022 #112
@johnny reb
I'm just interested in international politics, and I'm sympathetic to the situation of the Armenians, so I have a bad impression of the Erdogan regime in Turkey, and although the Erdogan regime has relented a lot in recent times, it's hard to tell what he really intends.
Vlad1234 17 | 889
31 Jan 2022 #113
I think Polish-Ukrainian history was sad. Who was guilty in it? Could it be complitely different? Could they become brothers? Could they forgive each other and become at least friends?
mafketis 37 | 10935
31 Jan 2022 #114
Polish-Ukrainian history was sad. Who was guilty in it

That's not a question that leads to any kind of good result.....

Could they forgive each other and become at least friends?

Relations are about as good now as they've ever been (and probably about as good as they can be for the time being).

The basis of their allieship is of course (well-founded) mistrust of Russia but... better than nuthin' (which is what they had before...)
Crow 162 | 9472
1 Feb 2022 #115
Polish-Ukrainian history was sad. Who was guilty in it?

Roman empire was/is source of misery.
mafketis 37 | 10935
1 Feb 2022 #116
Wrong again! How do you do it? How does so much wrong fit in the head of one humble corvid?

Russian empire is a more proximate source of misery, whether Tsarist, Soviet of Putinesque....
Crow 162 | 9472
1 Feb 2022 #117
If not for Rome that always wanted all for itself and Germanics, Russia would already be Poland. In fact, Poland would be Serbia (ie Sarmatia) and we all would be Serbia. Europe would be Serbia or at least Serbs, same as what was before Roman madness occurred.

Now, say thanks to Rome you are not a Serb yourself. See how Romans degraded you.
Miloslaw 20 | 5042
1 Feb 2022 #118
@Crow

Absolutely nuts as usual.....
How many times do you have to be told?
Nobody cares about Serbs and Serbia.....you are an irrelevent little country.
Cojestdocholery 2 | 1063
2 Feb 2022 #119
Don`t you realize

So Crow who are you supporting? Russia or Ukrainie?
mafketis 37 | 10935
2 Feb 2022 #120
He's a Russian ally and an avowed enemy of Poland (sided with Belarus against Poland during the migrant crisis).

He wants Poland in bondage to Russia because he thinks that will make his insignificant ****@nt little country important somehow....


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