Terms of Ukrainian Surrender

I'm curious, if the members of PF can lay out their expectations of what Ukraine is to do if it loses this war. It would be good for Ukrainians to prepare for this type of eventuality.

I will sketch out some general parameters for you to debate:

1) Ukrainian army surrenders to invincible Russian forces.
2) Ukraine acknowledges and eternally confirms Russian control over Crimea.
3) Ukraine cedes occupied territories of Luhansk, Donetsk, Zaporozhye, and Kherson oblasts to Russia.
4) Ukraine pays Russia all the cost of conducting the Special Military Operation, plus then some.
5) NATO is dissolved and all American forces must leave Europe.
6) Russia keeps its Security Council veto, and India and Brazil replace the USA and the United Kingdom as permanent security council members.
7) Russia is allowed to create military bases in Vilnius, Warsaw, Prague and Berlin.

Keep gorilla troops and make sure the war 'odbije sie czkawka' to Russia

We already have pawian troops, so that's covered.

Anyways, I have only just realised that Poland is not punished enough in the above points for her support to Ukraine, so...

8) Poland gives Silesia, Pomerania and Lebuser Land to Germany; Kladská Kotlina and Polish part of Těšínské Slezsko to Czechia, and Warsaw is divided into Russian, Chinese, Iranian and North Korean occupational zones.

9) Poland admits that Copernicus was German, Chopin French and that it was Russians who first invented vodka (and to really rub it in, that it was actually the French who taught us how to eat with knife and fork).

Hopefully, the Poland/West haters here will come up with more brilliant ideas.

OH MY GOD

*faints*

*brings BB around with some smelling salt*

Don't faint until you have seen Crnogorac's, Novichok's and Espana's proposals. :D

@GefreiterKania

Very well. I will bite.

Here is my list:

1) Ukraine totally and completely demilitarizes - to such an extent that they can in no way pose a credible threat to Russia.

2) Ukraine forswears ever joining NATO

3) Ukraine agrees to never host nuclear weapons on its territory.

4) Ukraine agrees to pursue parallel integration tracks with both the EU and the Eurasian Economic Union (thus acting as a bridge between our two hostile camps)

5) Ukraine either cedes the contested territories to Russia wholesale, or agrees a certain type of condominium where we both have a vote over how the provinces develop.

6) Ukraine agrees to never cut the water supply to Crimea, or otherwise enforce economic embargoes on newly acquired territories.

7) Ukraine waives all right to compensation.

They won't of course.

A more pertinent question is what we allow r*SSia to do when they lose.

@Bobko

Ad.1 They never posed any credible threat to Russia
Ad.2 Were they about to join NATO anytime soon?
Ad.3 They agreed to that already and even gave up the nukes they had (for safety guarantees)
Ad.4 As far as I know, there is no hostility on the EU part towards EEU and Ukraine was dealing with both.

As you can see, Ukraine met most of your surrender conditions even before you attacked them. :)

Ad.6 sounds obvious in peace time after the status of the territory is agreed (if it's not agreed, then why should
Ukraine worry about a foreign country's city water supply?)
Ad.7 There would be no need for any compensation on any side if it wasn't for this war.

Are you sure you thought this through, Bobi?

I'm not Putin, I'm Bobko. It's not my fault points 1-4 represent a regression to the status quo.

Also, you ignored # 5. An important point, in my mind.

Hardly. In the twin thread I proposed fair, internationally supervised referenda in the contested territories.

@GefreiterKania

I'm somewhat skeptical of what "internationally supervised" referenda mean. If it means muzzling Russian media, not allowing Russia to exert its influence through finance (a form of expression), and not allowing Russia to offer passports or other benefits - then their worth is at best questionable.

We came with a plan. To see if it makes sense, you must let us see it through.

So you think you can't win referendum without bribes? Interesting

If the EU/USA can come with their media there, "exert financial influence" and offer EU passports and other benefits, then why not. We'll see what the people will choose. :)

Again, you probably haven't thought this through.

Not that we can't win without bribes, but simply the people living in contested territories are not idiots.


If you care about them, and you are not indifferent to their fate - then do it. We might complain, but that will be fair, at least.

They deserve an award for you killing half a million of their best men for your collective egos.

...and Z-P=0...and I am being kind to Z.


It doesn't matter when - unless it's never. Russia will make sure it's never.

Say what? We provided some weapons for Ukraine to be able to repel the aggressors. All the killing there is done either by the Russian invaders or Ukrainian defenders. It's like in this old joke - "NATO hasn't arrived yet".

Sit down and take a deep breath.

Ukraine has the strongest military in Europe at this moment - by far. Russia destroys a Germany-sized stockpile of weapons every few months, and maybe a Spain or Netherlands-sized one every single month.

Europe is naked through stripping itself for Ukraine. If you had even a little bit of decency, you would admit there's nothing in Europe that could challenge the Russians as much as Ukraine.

Ukrainians are unfortunately similar to us in their seemingly endless capacity for suffering. I doubt a France or a Germany could endure many Bakhmuts before collapsing.

Bullsh*it! Even the US scumbags knew Russia would win. You were merely the tools for the US and your mission was to help keep this hell going to meet the US scum's objectives. "Winning" against Russia was not one of them. Weakening and preparing Russia for Yugo-style partitioning was. And, as always, ripping off US taxpayers.

Is that what they tell you on Russian TV?

Poland gave some modern howitzers, manpads and Leopards but mostly we sent old post-Soviet junk (of which we still have a lot anyway), and new stuff is already replacing it (e.g. Korean tanks and howitzers already started arriving). Wojsko Polskie, with a little help of the American expeditionary forces here, would already wipe the floor with Russia. When all the Abrams, HIMARS, Apaches, Korean stuff, F-35 etc. arrives we will be invincible. Your altercation with Ukrainians would look like a kindergarten brawl compared to war with Poland.

"Invincible" does not include a leash. You are an American pet on a leash and a landing strip.
No, the US will not commit suicide for a bunch of tough-talking idiots somewhere in Eastern Europe.

Blah, blah, blah, yadda, yadda yadda.

You're so predictable, Rich. Next time just write "the usual"; it will save you some typing time and everybody will know what you wanted to say anyway.

You do realise that he's not serious.
@ GefreiterKania, this is what comes of spending all those years in ireland :))

OK. Just imagine all that awesome Polish army and bravery but with the US gone from Poland....hahahahahahahahahaha...
You would discover the upside to not being a-holes with Russia very quickly.

True. It was like University of Wit and Banter for me ;)


I can imagine it very easily and soon I won't even have to imagine because it will be real. :)

What will be real? Poland on its own and without American military welfare?

I'd rather not imagine that

Did you become the Archbishop of Banterbury?

Soon, the US will be Brazil - crime-ridden, broke sh*hole "printing" money just to pay interest on its 50 trillion debt it has no means or intention of ever paying back.

When that moment comes, the last item on the list will be defending Poland.

My advice for the Poles: You don't have to slobber over the next Russian you meet. Just don't be your usual moron-hero as there is no upside to it.

Ehhh? Are you saying Kania is pulling my leg, when he's soliciting opinions regarding an Ukrainian surrender? That would be cruel and unusual punishment, not to mention very rude.

I post here in earnest, and expect the same from others.