Destruction of Ukrainian churches in Poland in 1938

The same ukrainian people who were starved to death during the Stalin holodomor?
The same Ukrainians who did greet the Wehrmacht with salt and bread as their liberators from Soviet rule???

Somewhat hard to believe...

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ukrainian-German_collaboration_during_World_War_II

"The enemy of my enemy is my friend!"
Nothing new here...WWII was full of that.

Yessir which proves they're not only primitive but also stupid, you have to remember that its year 1918-19, ukrainians deliberately decide to steal land from Poles exiling and murdering them in the process, holodomor is still a good 14 years away.

Generally ukrainians were divided, cossacks and what passed for ukrainian elite supported Whites while peasantry which made up 90% of ukrainian population supported the reds ie the Bolscheviks.

The same peasants got starved to death 14 years later but you shoul know the saying "revolution devours its own children?" no?

In 1918-19 when ukrainians were getting their arses handed to them by the Poles they were most definitely Bolscheviks or their supporters.


Thats only because of what Wechmracht did to said ukrainians, after a few years of nazi rule everyone preferred communism and ukrainians never tasted wealth or civilised lifestyle like Poles so for them communism wasnt that much of a biggie.

Russians made sure that.

1. ukrainians may continue murdering polish civilians.
2. ukrainians are safe from extermination/enslavement by Germans.
3. ukrainians do not get burned to the ground by Poland for their genocide of Poles once WW2 is over.

No wonder they greeted the Red Army with flowers during WW2, communism not only ensured they could build a country on polish lands but saved them from german concentration camps and polish retaliation.

Sorry BB i read it wrong but they did greet the Red Army later on.

They've greeted the Germans because said Germans initially considered giving ukrainians some sort of authonomy but these were only loose considerations, eventually ukrainians turned out to be fairly worthless as an ally and Germany withdrew from any serious plans simply providing arms so they exterminate the Poles and Jews.

After the war they'd end up on a merry gas chamber/slavery bandwagon all other Slavs were destined to go on.

And Polish church became a vehicle of Polonization. So, what are we arguing here about? Both were involved in destroying churches, making sure that the people lose their identity, language, culture.


Thanks for mentioning this. It was simply disgusting. I feel pain for all these people who had to go through this Polish and Russian BS through centuries, being forced into Catholicism (Uniate Church) or Russian Orthodoxy in one time or the other.


Poland was the only country in the world involved in post WWll Jewish pogroms and murder. Kielce 1946 is a horrible witness of that.
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kielce_pogrom

The same place where 28 years earlier, in 1918 Poles did the following:




Poles indeed "tasted" wealth.


Ukrainians had little support for Bolsheviks, because even the poorest one had a cow and a parcel of field to grow food on for his own family. Bolsheviks forcefully removed whatever people had accompanied by army or execution squadrons. Communism was never part of Ukrainian mentality as ownership was always cherished and work respected. Here is a source on what bolsheviks started in 1928-29 with hard-working people:


ukrainiangenocide.com/dkeyfigures.html

This is not a support of Bolshevism. If there were those who supported it in the late 1910s, the reason was being a hope to start something new, picturesque as communists were presenting it; but again, only landless and hopeless could have been seduced by this, not the owners of even a small lot of land. The village where my father is from, the most hidden and almost unknown, had always majority of its inhabitants with land and livestock.

Damn,the Ukrainkas in the photo look like the contemporary ones.Wehrmacht had a reason to invade after all.

Well that is quite a poor argument considering that the Ukraine wasn't independent, and even in those days any intelligent politician would realize that the end of Polish rule meant Russian rule. It was a straight choice, they would have known this very well after all it took the Poles to dislodge the soviets from Kiev in the past.

And actually what makes the Ukrainian quest for independence so much different than the Polish quest for independence?

For all I know, Poland could've been beaten by the SU as well and then we'd be talking about Poland in the same way you guys talk about the Ukraine now.

It's kinda hard to imagine that on one hand on this forum they talk about the Ukrainians being the "brothers" of Poles, while on the other hand, they seem to have hated each other to bits. Again, so far for "Slavic Brotherhood" and "pan-slavism".

>^..^<

M-G (it doesn't exist anymore)

what do I care about the above?

Ever thought about an idea of pan-germanium- because the English and Germans are so alike. (it is being laid on with a trowel, so you should recognize it by now)

You argument is full of hypotheticals, and completely divorced form the actual reality of the Ukraine.

You are completely ignoring my arguments which are grounded in reality, and that is how i Know that you are conceding the debate.

No, I never gave pan-germanism any thought.


As long as you react only to the illustrations I add and don't react to my main statement (in this case a question), you cannot accuse me of ignoring your arguments.

Edit: but let's for fun's sake have a look at your arguments:

So, what you're basically saying is that the Ukrainians should be happy that the Poles came to occupy them? Consider them the lesser evil? I am sure that Ukrainians at the time would wholeheartedly disagree with you. An occupying force is an occupying force and just because you hate the Soviets, it doesn't mean that an occupation by those commies would have been experienced less pleasant than a Polish occupation, given the Ukrainian quest for independence.

Not the only one. There were post-war pogroms and murder of Jews in Romania, Slovakia, Hungary, Russia and Ukraine as well.

I agree on Russia and Ukraine, but not on Romania. In Romania the pogroms were only aimed at the Roma gypsies. And they still go on, as recent as 2005. I haven't found any evidence of Hungarian pogroms after 1945 and Slovakia I yet have to research.

I am not arguing about the rights and wrongs of the issue, I am merely describing the situation as it was, and my point is that yes, a Polish occupation would have been Infinitely preferable.

The second point is that a bigger Poland would have been beneficial not only to the Poles but to everyone, think about it this way at present by EU standards Poland is a middle/big country. If Poland were a really big country, if say Stalin was a bit more generous after the war than it could accommodate the EU's surplus population. So overcrowded countries like the UK, Netherlands and Germany could settle their surplus population to Poland. As for the Ukrainians their problem is not overpopulation, it is under populated as a country, therefore a little slice of lviv Oblast would make 0 difference.

And lets face it, the Ukraine is not in the EU and is not a very attractive destination at the moment.

Quite importantly people would also have a sufficient amount of space to exercise their horses):



Some of these great buildings would be restored through EU funds as well:)

Maybe if you look at it from a Ukrainian perspective, neither occupations would be preferable. It's actually a pretty arrogant statement to say to the Ukrainians "look here, you should be happy we're occupying you. If the commies come, whom we hate, you'd be much worse off. Ukrainian independence? Haha, you're not capable of being independent; no, let us occupy your lands because we know what's best for you."

I think you would find many Ukrainians disagreeing with this kind of statements. Don't forget they saw the Poles as enemies.

But, following your reasoning, I am sure you wouldn't have any problem with Germany and Russia splitting up Poland again: two rich and strong countries; Poland could only benefit from an occupation.

;)

>^..^<

M-G (wondrous world)

The problem here is the word occupation, Poles have been masters of the place for the past 500-600 years depending on the region, it was their land no matter what the ukrainians claimed.

Of course the ukrainian perspective involved murdering women and children so its no perspective at all.

The area involved used to be called Ruthenia. And Ruthenians are the anchestors of modern-day Ukrainians. Leopolis was founded by the Ruthenians. After that, Poles conquered it. And the main cause of the Polish-Ukrainian war was Leopolis. "Leopolis" to avoid any Polish or Ukrainian name of Lemberg, Lwow, Lviv as I believe "Leopolis" was the very first name of the city.

>^..^<

M-G (tiens)

I don't think Poles are interested in Ukrainian perspective and they should not be, but to claim that all Ukrainians were sub-humans who are so helpless, so they need to be occupied by eg. Poles is purely patronizing propaganda comparable only to the Colonial one, where the colonized were made look as inferior in very aspect. Even the post -colonial countries (mainly US) uses this argument to convince its won citizens in order to justify their imperialistic actions against Aphganistan, Vietnam, Iraq and so on. The only difference is: Poland is in no way comparable to US and therefore those attempts to undermine the present position of Ukraine should not be taken seriously.

Besides, since we are of topic:

I don't think that Ukrainians would want to go through another Polonization process, since even though Poland promised to respect the rights of minorities, they later renounced the same Treaty.

You didn't like Polish occupation, you hated Russian one, but could not manage to stand on your own. Even today, when you are finally independent, you are just a putty in Russians hands. Why is that?


I love how you twist facts, aphro. The Treaty was not about rights of minorities. It was about Poland helping fight for Ukrainian independence. But since Ukrainians themselves were not much interested, why Poland should care? Want to blame someone? Blame yourselves.

I think that Ukraine is not doing so well, because the Polish know- how has been gone from its territories since 1943. They miss the centuries of Polonisation and they really miss Poles in Ukraine and they have been since 1943. I just have never heard about it, but if you have, I would be happy to find out that indeed you are always right, so far I have NO prove.

Some claim that Poland is a putty of EU - is that true? Why is that? It is a nice chat and we can go on like that forever, but we are not here to discuss your lack of ability to refute my claim that Polish government have destroyed Ukrainian churches in the Chelm region in 1938.


of course it was not solely about that, but I claim that by renouncing it, Poland was no longer legally responsible for respecting the rights of minorities in Poland (which was amounting to apprrox 30% at time), even though it was an important part of it and one of the conditions why Poland gained its independence.


How did you come to such a conclusion. Where in the treaty does it state that it was signed in order for Poland to help the Ukraine gained its independence?


there were very interested and there is a large number of various sources available that indeed Ukrainian were interested in gaining its independence , but I think you are referring to something else.


I don't know.


I am not blaming Poland for anything at the moment, since they have been out of Ukraine since 1943


I am sure that there are some who do, but stating the obvious is not really adding anything to our discussion.

And Lwów had a 70% Polish population for exactly 430 years by then.

The fact is Poland inherited the lands in medieval times via legitimate dynastic process and governed them ever since, even under Austria the majority of the governing body was ethnically polish.

I'm sorry but ukrainians dont get to wake up after 500 years, just like Jews resigned all rights to Israel leaving it over a 1000 years ago so did ukrainians resigned all rights to ukraine by giving it away to Poles 500~ years ago.

You dont get to take back whats no longer yours, well of course ukrainians decided to try anyway by murdering a quarter of a milion defencless polish civilians.

Nice sarcasm but again you are avoiding the main issue: how come Ukraine never managed to be independent throughout the centuries until last 20 years? It's not for lack of trying. Poland in the same time, in similar circumstances, managed to be doing relatively well, even great in one point.


Is that the best you can do? Now explain how come with your precious independence, you are still looking up to Mother Russia for guidance?


Oh, so now are we going to pretend we-are-still-talking-about-those-churches part? It was refuted plenty already. And you said yourself couple post higher that this thread going forever is your goal here. Oh, you meant "how long like mine opinion wins', I see. I can play your game forever, don't you worry.


But you are, obviously, not one among them.

To underline how huge was Ukraines failure and how significant Polands success we need to be aware that Polands existence was fiercely opposed and contested by Germany, arguably the most powerfull european state.

Ukraine had plenty of opportunities of coming to terms with Poland in regards to its existence but the ukrainians always chose war and attrocities and being the weaker in the conflict always lost.

This in turn shows how cowardly was the ukrainian genocide of Poles during WW2.

For the first time in 700 years of mutual history Poland was defencless, the compressed feelings of jealousy and hatred that ukrainians felt towards their far more succesful cousins could now be vented without fear of polish reprisals.

Grigorij Malinowski - "Brothers in Blood".

This pretty much sums up the reasons for the massacres of polish women and children, Poles were the succesfull upper class, the nation that embodied solidarity against the odds, courage and noble patriotism.

All of those features of the polish nation helped Poland win back its independence, Poles were, for ukrainians an embodiment of all that ukrainians aspired to and failed to achieve, hence the jealous rage of the ukrainians.

Any source? Or you again try to post looking at your derriere? Why not look up what you mean so it is easier to discuss the issue.


Interesting ;) Where are the royals to demand? I bet Ukrainian court will be happy to listen to their claims. Just call your king and let him know that he is free to try.


Was there an amendment made in Polish fantasy constitution which prevents Jews from getting back their lands?


Where? All I heard from you was ungrounded statements, unsupported by any source.

Check who your new president is. And how profitable that gas deal with Russia is. Not to mention Black Sea situation.

And my derriere is still cute.

the question why is not relevant since Ukraine is an independent country right now, after, as you wisely noticed, many attempts. We are here not to compare Poland to Ukraine since those two countries had a different road to freedom. If I were to compare Poland and its present achievements to other, more developed societies, Poland would not look good, but I understand that Poland is in the process, so I will not bash it against other western countries, it would not be fair.


I can do much better, but I just used your way of argument in order to level with you. Now you see that it was not good idea to use that argument in the first place. The Ukrainian independence is precious indeed and I don't recall Ukraine looking for guidance. Rather I see a numerous attempts of Russia to re-gain its power in Ukraine. Considering the fact that there is a large Russian population, I am not surprised that Russia wants to use its presence in order to gain more influence.


I am not pretending, it was the title of the thread.


By whom. There were some attempt to refute it, but none of them were successful - besides, how can one refute facts.


it was said in jest. You know that neither I, nor anybody else has the power to continue this thread for ever. If people are interested, they will post. Also, Soki, who tried to refute the main topic made it actually much longer already.


I don't play games. This is my first thread about Ukrainian issues on PF, because the topic sparked my attention. I am not breaking any rules on PF.


bringing up discussion is not an attempt to blame anybody. I admit that I pointed out to certain issues, but that is not the same as solely blaming Poland for what had happened in the Ukraine. The issue is very complex and I have no intention to discuss centuries of history of Ukraine, only those which are connected to Poland and Ukraine and my thread fulfills all the requirements.

You missed the treaty issue. Why?

that sounds more like a speech at the Polish White power meeting then an attempt to provide some interpretation of the long history.


true. I have not seen anything worthy attention besides Porzeczka, who provided some sources mostly ON TOPIC. The rest is just a intentional hijacking of the thread.

Do you disagree with it?

Isnt Poland far far more succesfull than Ukraine despite greater odds? Didnt Poland behave decently towards the Germans where in similar situation Ukraine descended into barbarism and genocide towards the Poles?

Face it the gap between our nations is massive and history proves it right.

The moral burden of Ukraine and the choices it made in the past made it a forgotten dump it is today, cutting themselves from the polish heritage which created the foundation of what passes for an ukrainian nation today also damaged Ukraine greatly.

aphrodisiac
The topic is very complex. Apparently, to understand it, one has to know many elements of Poland-Ukraine relations through history. I hope Nathan's comments to which I'm responding are on topic.


Sadly, around that time, both Poles and Ukrainians committed crimes against Jews.


Source: The world reacts to the Holocaust, David S. Wyman, Charles H. Rosenzveig, published by John Hopkins University, 1996.


Source: Source: Violence and Terror in the French and Russian Revolutions, Arno J. Mayer, 2002
Various forces attacked Jews in Ukraine.


Source: A History of the Jewish people, H. Ben-Sasson, Harvard University 1976


It seems incorrect to assume that Orthodox Church was the main source of Ukrainian Nationalism in prewar Poland. In XXc (1920s-1930s), 'Ukrainian' Orthodox churches still conducted sermons in Russian, e.g. in Volhynia, contrary to Uniate ones. Furthermore, most of Ukrainians in Poland were Uniates (even in censuses, Uniates equal Ukrainians, the center of Ukrainian Nationalism in XIX/XXc was Austrian Galicia), the action did not affect them. The goal of 're-vindication' couldn't have been simply destruction of Ukrainian nationalism.

You said that it was done 'to fight Ukrainian nationalism'. Right? There is more to it.
Ukrainian Orhodox Church as a vehicle of rusification + prof. Magocsi's words: Orthodox Church in Poland was historically associated with the tsarist government and its policy of russification ... Polish authorities especially at the local level remained ill disposed to what was considered a 'schismatic' church with roots in Russia. Such attitudes resulted in the so-called revindication campaigns.


Didn't Ukrainian Nationalists want a slice of Czechoslovakia too? Their ultimate goal was: an independent and unified Ukrainian state that would include Polish, Soviet, Romanian, and Czechoslovak territories.





Source: Encyclopedia of Rusyn history and culture, Paul R. Magocsi, Ivan Ivanovich Pop, 2002.

'Greater Ukraine'?
Plans of Ukrainian Nationalists (they obviously wanted to divide Czechoslovakia) were justified based on what?


There were only 60% Ukrainians in Ukrainian West Republic. Double standards? Medieval Kievan Rus territory?


How do you know those are Ukrainian/not Polish families? Sources?

forum.axishistory.com/viewtopic.php?t=164006&start=15

Hodyvantsi, Tomashivskogo County, the priest was convicted for conducting the massesand was punished by 3 months of arrest and monetary penalty. Novosilky preist received 1 month of arrest and monetary penalty.

Farmer from village. Hodyvantsi, who had 75 years of age, sentenced to monetary penalty and seizure for the fact [b]that he used his house for secret prayer meetings. Ten women from Hmilka parish stayed several months in prison in Biłgoraj for resistance during the closing"house of prayer" in Hmilku.[/quote]
Second Polish republic was nothing less than a bunch of barbaric lowlifes who knew nothing of religious or national tolerance. A priest in Polish mass was yelling to his parishioners: "Don't sell milk to Jews and Ukrainians". I mean how pathetic this "priest" was.

Source:
Б. Жуків., Нищення церков на Холмщині в 1938 р. з 25 ілюстраціями, Краків 1940.
B. Zhukiv, "Destruction of churches in Holm area in 1938", 25 illustrations, published in Cracow 1940.

but those churches in question were Ukrainian, regardless of what association they may carry to the Poles. What is carried to Ukrainians was the fact that the possibility of protecting their ethnic heritage has diminished because of that. Chelm region is just an example.

By 1938 The little Treaty of Versille was renounced by Poland, therefore Poland was not longer obligated to respect the rights of ethnic minorities.

These territories were occupied by the above-mentioned countries. You are talking about Sub-Carpathian Ukraine. Here is the info on the territories which seem to bother you:



Under the unfavorable circumstances, having no army or other ways of influencing political decisions, Rusyns voted for the best available option - Czechoslovakia.


Nothing strange here. Ukraine gained nothing from the Munich agreement, in which it didn't participate.


Of course, Greater - in other words - United. What unusual in a nation coming under one wing.



I think if Ukrainians wanted a part of Czechoslovakia proper, they wouldn't be guarded by Czechoslovakian troops. Also if Voloshyn was appointed by German directive in 1938, he wouldn't risk his post by siding with the retreating Czech troops, moreover, already knowing about the decision of the Munich agreement a year earlier. I think you should ask Hungarians, eternal brothers of yours, about why they invaded Czechoslovakia and Sub-Carpathian region.


You still haven't explained the huge Russian Orthodox church you have in Warsaw while burning hundreds of Ukrainian churches in Western Ukraine if you indeed were revindicating. If you saw policy of russification in Orthodox churches wouldn't it be more logic to start with Russian if that was your real intention, in which I have hard time to believe.


I think all of those + Jewish minority also supported Ukrainian state, sometimes being simply neutral.


I haven't posted the pictures. When someone does, there have to be proof of what I am looking at, not meer pictures of murdered people. They could have been in any country and killed by anyone. How do I know?

Official Russian data for 1906:


Strange proportion of churches and believers.