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Residential real estate values go down in Poland


RoughFlavors 1 | 100
20 Jan 2012 #361
people who can't be bothered to work hard

it's not quite that simple, but in general it's true, not everyone can - or should - own real estate. on the other hand, availability of affordable housing is both a sign of and a stimulant of economic growth. there have been multiple examples of that around the globe for decades. that's why it would be quite advisable for the Polish government to look into it, and PDQ... same goes for roads, and schools, and healthcare.
delphiandomine 88 | 18,475
20 Jan 2012 #362
The Polish government is going to have to do something but where the money is going to come from is anyones guess.

Honestly, I don't think the Polish government should do a thing, except sorting out the mess that is municipal and social housing. It's started to happen in Poznan (drunks who aren't paying the rent are going to some awful prefab accommodation, as they should be) - but it needs to be nationwide.

you can't argue with supply and demand and right now there is way more demand than supply. what the government can do is provide for cheaper loans, tax breaks for new construction both to companies and individuals, and generally make establishing and running a business in Poland less hassle-free.

Cheaper loans? There's already Rodzina na Swoim - how much cheaper do you want? Tax breaks for construction - why? There's plenty of new stuff being built without the need for tax breaks. As for establishing/running a business - it's really not that complicated for most businesses.

that's why it would be quite advisable for the Polish government to look into it, and PDQ... same goes for roads, and schools, and healthcare.

Rome wasn't built in a day. People seem to forget that Poland has came a hell of a long way since 1989 - heck, really, you could say since 1995 as the country was actually worse off during the early 90's than the late 80's.

Roads are fine. As long as everything that gets built by 2020 gets built, I have no issues. So far, so good. As for schools - just, leave them alone for now. Reform after reform changes nothing.

Developers buying up land and leaving it purposely idle,(keep supply down) .

You honestly think developers are the kind of people who would operate a cartel? I know a couple, and they don't think far into the future - they think about buying the land, getting the permissions, building the properties and collecting their profit. Sitting on land is losing money.

Here we see the difference between a know-it all English teacher and CMS who seems to be someone in the finance trade.

I really am starting to think you're in love with me. 24 posts, and most of them replies to little me. How cute - and a certain sign that you're just another poster who's too cowardly to post under his own name. Surprise, surprise.
RoughFlavors 1 | 100
20 Jan 2012 #363
wtf, D? somehow you're the only person who thinks apartments in Poland are cheap and plentiful.
delphiandomine 88 | 18,475
20 Jan 2012 #364
The problem is not the price and availability, it's expectations. People want lovely modern apartments with fantastic tram connections - but they want it now.

What "wielki pan" says about buying small and upgrading just doesn't seem to be widely practised here.
RoughFlavors 1 | 100
20 Jan 2012 #365
in other words, if all people can afford is old apartments far from tram connections, there is an issue of price. If the average price per square meter is 6,000-7,000PLN, and the average monthly wage is 4,000, don't you think there is a little disconnect there?
wielki pan 2 | 250
20 Jan 2012 #366
Actually - they weren't. There were plenty of flats that were privately owned during Communism - many of the "Spoldzenia MIeszkanowa" type flats were bought upon construction. The real problem is - as I said - the younger generation is priced out of the market by a squeeze of those with foreign income and older people who are inheriting flats.

Mr D, thanks for your comments but I beg to differ on many points, firstly my auntie was offered a flat approx 35sq metres in the main street, of Gdnia, she showed me the paper work and I'm almost certain it was for 970 US dollars, that was in the early 80's, the place is probably now worth approximately 350,000 zl... The only way she was able to buy the flat was to ask a relative who was living overseas, In the 80's Poland was in dire need of US currency, you may remember that when a person was visiting Poland he would have to pay up front US dollars for every day he has in the country, he would in turn receive 35/60 zlote for one US dollar, as he entered Poland he has harassed by money traders who would offer him 400/600 zlote for one US dollar, Drunks would approach you to change 1 dollar so they could go to the Pewex Shop and buy vodka, which was cheaper in that store than in a Polish Shop for zlote (the cost was 1 dollar for half a litre) Now the point I was making is that most Poles could not afford to pay a high price for a flat so 970$ seemed to form a bench mark, remember foreigners were not allowed to buy real estate etc. So please don't say local Poles got flats for peanuts, must couldn't afford to pay for them anyhow. Remember also that the local authorities had no money to maintain these flats so it was in there best interest to give them back to the public. One other point is that those flats which hold thousands of people are in fact worth nothing as it has no real estate value (minimal) and all they worth is a few bricks and a few windows.
delphiandomine 88 | 18,475
20 Jan 2012 #367
in other words, if all people can afford is old apartments far from tram connections, there is an issue of price. If the average price per square meter is 6,000-7,000PLN, and the average monthly wage is 4,000, don't you think there is a little disconnect there?

But this disconnect isn't actually seen in Poland. Right now, there are flats on offer in Poznan for 4,500zl/square metre next to tram lines - and the average wage is certainly around that level.

Mr D, thanks for your comments but I beg to differ on many points, firstly my auntie was offered a flat approx 35sq metres in the main street, of Gdnia, she showed me the paper work and I'm almost certain it was for 970 US dollars, that was in the early 80's, the place is probably now worth approximately 350,000 zl... The only way she was able to buy the flat was to ask a relative who was living overseas

That sounds like a dodgy sale to raise hard currency - but it's not what I was talking about. Many of the cooperative-built flats were sold at the time of construction - in zloty. Muncipal housing (not the same thing) should never have been sold - and if she bought a flat in US Dollars, it was certainly some sort of quasi-legal operation and not "normal".

I don't doubt your story - in fact, it's very interesting - it would be curious to know who she bought the flat from.

Now the point I was making is that most Poles could not afford to pay a high price for a flat so 970$ seemed to form a bench mark, remember foreigners were not allowed to buy real estate etc. So please don't say local Poles got flats for peanuts, must couldn't afford to pay for them anyhow.

Most actually could - there was a lot of surplus money in the system, caused by workers going insane every time price rises were announced. I don't remember the exact details to hand, but one huge problem that they had in 1980-1 was that the workers had a lot of cash, but nothing to spend it on. Sure, the Zloty was worthless outside of Poland - but inside Poland, it still had value. And the "cooperative" flats were sold in Zloty, not hard currency.

One other point is that those flats which hold thousands of people are in fact worth nothing as it has no real estate value (minimal) and all they worth is a few bricks and a few windows.

And yet they're worth a lot of money if they're in a good location.

It's the reason why they're holding their value while new blocks are falling in value - new blocks tend to be poorly located.
pip 10 | 1,661
20 Jan 2012 #368
It's the reason why they're holding their value while new blocks are falling in value - new blocks tend to be poorly located.

and they are still selling.
RoughFlavors 1 | 100
20 Jan 2012 #369
Speaking about my own experience - I spent the first 10 years of my life in an "M3" - basically, a one-bedroom apartment, with a kitchen that when you wanted to walk in, someone else had to walk out... it was built in the 70s. my parents were happy with it because it had a balcony, and they only had to wait 2 years (!) for their allotment (przydzial). Then we got "allotted" an "M4." I remember that quite well - it was a big effing deal, almost a miracle, the family celebrated for like a week... The M4 had two bedrooms, some 50 square meters, and a kitchen that could actually accommodate a kitchen table. Ultimate luxury... There was also the case of our neighbor, who was a single man living in an M5 (unthinkable!), and half of the tenants circulated a letter to petition the "co-op" (spoldzielnia) to evict the guy, because he "didn't deserve" an M5, living by himself.

Then I came to this country, in my early 20s, and without much hassle I got an apartment of about 750 sf (some 70 square meters) with a club house, gym swimming pool, tennis courts, a shopping strip across the street, some 2 miles from a mall and 3-4 miles from an interstate. Without a "petition," waiting periods, connections, bribes, affordable on my f/t office work salary that was far from spectacular. Meanwhile, my peers "back home" were shacking up with their parents or grand parents with their spouses and young kids. Some of them still live with their parents, where the parents would occupy the first floor of a house and they would have the 2nd floor. My own cousin, who is about 27, is now in the process of majorly sucking up to my grandma, who is in her 90s, just so she can leave her the apartment. My high school friend lives with her husband and their twin boys in one bedroom, while their elderly aunt occupies the other room of an apartment in Warsaw, hoping she'll kick the bucket soon...

Do you have any idea how ridiculous this picture is, looking from here?
milky 13 | 1,657
20 Jan 2012 #370
Do you have any idea how ridiculous this picture is, looking from here?

Good honest post.
I can verify that this is the situation for many people today. Two and sometime even three generations living in the one tiny apartment. I always knew, that due to the economically disastrous situation, that, many home had three generation but I didn't believe that it was the case with even apartments,until I saw it several times with my own eyes.

no wonder the guy below is a Nazi
..

I reckon the percentage of couples sleeping in their sitting-rooms due to children occupying the one bedroom, is astonishingly high. Must be a horrible situation for these poor people.
delphiandomine 88 | 18,475
20 Jan 2012 #371
Then I came to this country, in my early 20s, and without much hassle I got an apartment of about 750 sf (some 70 square meters) with a club house, gym swimming pool, tennis courts, a shopping strip across the street, some 2 miles from a mall and 3-4 miles from an interstate. Without a "petition," waiting periods, connections, bribes, affordable on my f/t office work salary that was far from spectacular.

So you're comparing a country which went through two vicious wars on her territory, went through several regime changes and was bankrupt in the late 80's to a country which by the time you had moved there - was a superpower and incredibly wealthy. It's really not a fair comparison, is it?

(and bear in mind - property prices are a hell of a lot lower there than in Europe, simply because there's much more space). Comparing apples and oranges, here.

Meanwhile, my peers "back home" were shacking up with their parents or grand parents with their spouses and young kids. Some of them still live with their parents, where the parents would occupy the first floor of a house and they would have the 2nd floor.

They still live with their parents? That's obviously a lifestyle choice in today's Poland.

My own cousin, who is about 27, is now in the process of majorly sucking up to my grandma, who is in her 90s, just so she can leave her the apartment.

That's normal the world over - what's new here?

. My high school friend lives with her husband and their twin boys in one bedroom, while their elderly aunt occupies the other room of an apartment in Warsaw, hoping she'll kick the bucket soon...

Your friend didn't do well in life, did she?

Perhaps I'll give some examples.

I work with several people, all under 30 but with 2-4 years work experience. All of them own their own flats - while not big by American standards, they're still a decent size for young couples - all over 50sqm in good locations. There's nothing special about any of them - all of them worked hard for it, and as is common with young people worldwide, they put in the hours too.

I know one girl who earns a salary of just under 11k a month at the age of 27. How did she do it? Simple - she worked her ass off and gave up parties and beer for ACCA textbooks.

Meanwhile, I have some neighbours who live in the conditions that you describe. All of them are uneducated, lazy (they go to work and come back at the same time every day) and clearly have no hope in life. Should they really get help to buy a flat, given that they aren't really economically contributing?

Sorry, but Poland is just like any other European country - you get what you work for.
Wroclaw Boy
20 Jan 2012 #372
Then I came to this country, in my early 20s, and without much hassle I got an apartment of about 750 sf (some 70 square meters) with a club house, gym swimming pool, tennis courts, a shopping strip across the street, some 2 miles from a mall and 3-4 miles from an interstate.

What decade was that? America did certainly come pretty close to providing the best living standards for a while.
f stop 25 | 2,513
20 Jan 2012 #373
Delph, you are really sounding ignorant now: "all my friends are rich so the ones that are not must be stupid and lazy".

Edit: scratch: "friends". It should say all the people I interact with.
delphiandomine 88 | 18,475
20 Jan 2012 #374
None of them are rich - they've all got 25 year mortgages and they work long hours - but we all have the same thing in common - we work for it. No-one makes up excuses - in fact, tonight, two of them have to spend their Friday evening stuck at an exceptionally boring meeting of stakeholders in the business. That's why they're going somewhere and milky...isn't.

The difference between them and milky is that they actually leave the home to work, as opposed to pretending to sell crappy flashcards online.
milky 13 | 1,657
20 Jan 2012 #376
So you're comparing a country which went through two vicious wars on her territory, went through several regime changes and was bankrupt in the late 80's to a country which by the time you had moved there - was a superpower and incredibly wealthy. It's really not a fair comparison, is it?

The guy 'is' Polish and he is simply saying it as it is.

they're still a decent size for young couples

So have they kids?? young couples tend to reproduce? How many sleep in the sitting-room??

she worked her ass off and gave up parties and beer for ACCA textbooks.

so how many time her salary did she or your 'friends' pay for (their)her apartment?? how many hours over 39 does she work? 11k into the hand?? Is 27 suppose to be very young or something- I know people who had several houses by that age.

They still live with their parents? That's obviously a lifestyle choice in today's Poland.

pathetic statement.

Your friend didn't do well in life, did she?

All of them are uneducated, lazy (they go to work and come back at the same time every day) and clearly have no hope in life

Spoke like a true blue blooded Tory.
Harry
20 Jan 2012 #377
Spoke like a true blue blooded Tory.

If a person works hard in Poland, they are likely do well; the harder they work, the better they are likely to do. We are proof of that. If a person does not work hard in Poland (and is not well connected), they are very unlikely to do well. I did 47 hours' overtime in the past four weeks, I own my flat. You did how many? You don't own your flat. I wonder if there is any connection there.
delphiandomine 88 | 18,475
20 Jan 2012 #378
The guy 'is' Polish and he is simply saying it as it is.

You mean he's comparing the richest and most powerful in the country with a poor European country that was bankrupt 20 years ago and suffered two devastating wars, as well as having much of its resources exploited by a "brother". That's "saying how it is" allright.

So have they kids?? young couples tend to reproduce? How many sleep in the sitting-room??

No-one sleeps in the sitting room - their flats are all 2/3 roomed, as is normal for young couples to have. As for kids - plenty of time for that later.

so how many time her salary did she or your 'friends' pay for (their)her apartment?? how many hours over 39 does she work? 11k into the hand?? Is 27 suppose to be very young or something- I know people who had several houses by that age.

27 is very young in Poland, given that you need a Masters degree here to wipe your nose.

As for "overtime" - well -
f stop 25 | 2,513
20 Jan 2012 #379
None of them are rich

it's predictable that you skirt the meaning of my statement and latch on to one word to dispute. And add on a personal insult to milky, just to lower the bar.
milky 13 | 1,657
20 Jan 2012 #380
As for kids - plenty of time for that later.

newly married couple usually have a kid(s) within the first year or two,,,so?? Where do the kids go?? How many time their yearly salary did the married couples pay for their 'no room for kids apartment'??

I'll ignore the last comment as I'm not an American called Mark. I'm Irish so 'Téigh trasna ort féin '
RoughFlavors 1 | 100
20 Jan 2012 #381
two vicious wars on her territory, went through several regime changes and was bankrupt in the late 80's

oh, cry me an effing river...

you are entitled to see the world as divided into the rich and the lazy, or to prescribing the age when people should get married, move out, have children, and buy property all you want. but you're not entitled to your own facts, and the fact is that that there aren't enough apartments or houses compared to the population. there haven't been for long decades, and nothing has changed. which makes people tied to where they live, it's more difficult to move and find a better job, invest in their own business, etc.

Easily available affordable housing allows for more flexible workforce, and for a more skilled workforce, too. Remember the "a car in every driveway" thing? That assumed that everyone HAS a driveway - again, affordable, easily available housing. And now that you have a driveway, you also want your own fridge, dishwasher, washer and dryer, and a new set of bedroom furniture... And then you want someone to come fix the shi*t, and buy insurance in case the sh*t burns down one day, and a vacation to get away from all this sh*t. Which means more people are buying more sh*t, so more people are needed to make more sh*t, so more jobs, more trade, more services, better economy all around...

but why do all that, when we can just call people lazy or have them wait till their 30s to have kids, for lack of space for the crib?
delphiandomine 88 | 18,475
20 Jan 2012 #382
it's predictable that you skirt the meaning of my statement and latch on to one word to dispute. And add on a personal insult to milky, just to lower the bar.

Actually - in Poland, they normally are. Stupid and lazy people tend to have crappy living conditions, while hard working people tend to have decent accomodation. it's actually nothing to do with education, but everything to do with hard work. One of the richest people I've ever met was entirely self made - didn't study a thing, dropped out of school at 16 - but instead of sitting around, he worked every minute of every day. Now the guy, at the age of 42, is absolutely filthy rich.

which makes people tied to where they live, it's more difficult to move and find a better job, invest in their own business, etc.

In Poland? There's plenty of accommodation - I mean, have you looked at a Polish property website recently? But people want flat screen TV's, nice holidays by the sea and so on - and they put that as being more important than housing. Their choice.

Easily available affordable housing allows for more flexible workforce, and for a more skilled workforce, too.

You've really gone native over there, haven't you?

I'd love to know where there is "Easily available affordable housing" in Europe! About the only place that I can think of is the former East Germany - what with 20% unemployment and no hope. Fantastic.

I don't remember the Polish word for people like you, but you often read them on the gazeta.pl forums - people who have gone abroad and who think their adopted country pisses all over Poland because they've got a nice telly and the stupid kid from school doesn't.
milky 13 | 1,657
20 Jan 2012 #383
This is your Mark,,so ring him and ask him.
linkedin.com/pub/mark-biernat/6/400/465
JonnyM 11 | 2,620
20 Jan 2012 #384
Be careful, Mark, about posting details of your own LinkedIn profile on here - anyone can read it.
Wroclaw 44 | 5,386
20 Jan 2012 #385
i won't be editing milky is mark posts from now on. any poster who mentions milky is mark in the same post will have their complete post binned.
hythorn 3 | 580
20 Jan 2012 #386
it's actually nothing to do with education, but everything to do with hard work

that is one of the most naiive statements I have ever read

unless you have the intelligence, connections, drive, ambition, fortune, ability (sometimes ruthlessness and willingness to break the rules) you are doomed to failure or
worse still doomed to work for someone else
and let's not forget qualifications - try being a doctor based on who you know and your willingness to work hard

the world is full of fools who are good, hard workers and who can dig holes but cannot do anything else

the biggest fool is the busy fool, especially in today's market place

work smart or go home
delphiandomine 88 | 18,475
20 Jan 2012 #387
unless you have the intelligence, connections, drive, ambition, fortune, ability (sometimes ruthlessness and willingness to break the rules) you are doomed to failure or
worse still doomed to work for someone else

All of those people usually have incredible work ethics though - I've never met a successful person yet who worked 'only' 40 hour weeks. I do know one guy who has a rule of '40 hours and that's it' - but he cheerfully admits that his British boss won't reward him for it, even though he gets more done in 40 hours than others do in 50.

and let's not forget qualifications - try being a doctor based on who you know and your willingness to work hard

True, but I was just talking about success in general - of course, certain careers require papers and so on.

the world is full of fools who are good, hard workers and who can dig holes but cannot do anything else

Are there really that many hard working types who stay digging holes their whole lives?

When I walk round here, I see plenty of fools in holes not doing any digging.

Still wondering where Milky's imaginary 5 bedroom houses are for 3x salary in Ireland, though.
RoughFlavors 1 | 100
20 Jan 2012 #388
their adopted country pisses all over Poland

i don't know dude. i'm telling you about simple economics and you're going all crazy a$s about TVs and how I'm pissing all over Poland...

more cheaper housing would not hurt anyone in Poland, and there is no reason why a working person in a developed country couldn't afford both comfortable living accommodations as well as TVs, vacations, and whatever else.
delphiandomine 88 | 18,475
20 Jan 2012 #389
i don't know dude. i'm telling you about simple economics and you're going all crazy a$s about TVs and how I'm pissing all over Poland...

Simple economics of what? You're trying to apply American economics to Poland - which means either you're trolling, or you've gone native.

more cheaper housing would not hurt anyone in Poland, and there is no reason why a working person in a developed country couldn't afford both comfortable living accommodations as well as TVs, vacations, and whatever else.

I'm not aware of most Europeans living in such living conditions as you describe.

Still - please - tell me where in Europe you can find "cheap, affordable housing".
RoughFlavors 1 | 100
20 Jan 2012 #390
gone native

oooh... heavy stuff. where are you from, again?

it's not American economics, it's universal economics - demand for goods stimulates trade, and production, and job creation. in ANY country.

I'm not aware of most Europeans living in such living conditions as you describe.

you mean most Europeans don't have TVs? or disposable income? this is such bs, i'm going to skip that

where in Europe you can find "cheap, affordable housing".

it may not be affordable to Poles, but it is affordable to those who live and work in those countries, and I don't see a reason why there couldn't be any in Poland.


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