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Residential real estate values go down in Poland


delphiandomine 88 | 18,455
20 Jan 2012 #391
it's not American economics, it's universal economics - demand for goods stimulates trade, and production, and job creation. in ANY country.

Oh dear. Do we have to start with the history lesson about how poor Poland actually was in 1989-1995?

you mean most Europeans don't have TVs? or disposable income? this is such bs, i'm going to skip that

I'm still waiting to hear where in Europe you can find "Easily available affordable housing". There's some in East Germany, but absolutely no work - hence why Poles bought up property there, because there was plenty of work in Poland.

By the way - I was in Media Markt a few days ago, and there were plenty of people carrying out huge TV's and all sorts of expensive stuff. The same shopping centre was packed full of nice cars and people buying nice things - often in cash. Could it be that your image of Poland has been tainted by the fact that your own family are non-achievers?

it may not be affordable to Poles, but it is affordable to those who live and work in those countries, and I don't see a reason why there couldn't be any in Poland.

Now you're just trolling.

If you want to talk about "affordable accommodation", ask yourself why many Spanish people stay at home for years and years. Or, or - ask yourself why there are such few locals buying property along the Croatian coast. Or or or - why not - ask yourself why people live 2 hours from their work in London! Or even - why not ask yourself why people are buying property 100km away from Dublin despite working in Dublin.

So - tell us - what's different in Poland with young people?
RoughFlavors 1 | 100
20 Jan 2012 #392
how poor Poland actually was in 1989

I lived in Poland in 1989, D. But it was 22 years ago, and the world moved on, so no point on harping on it

you're not making any sense. what is the problem? it's not physically impossible to construct buildings efficiently and quickly, it's not beyond human ability to promote competition and stimulate the construction business, and there isn't a shortage of land, either. why can't there be a larger supply of apartments or houses? because Londoners choose to live in the suburbs? is that your argument?

D, you're seriously looping. first you're saying people all over Europe can't afford TVs and vacations, now you're saying that they can, particularly in combination with nice cars, and all of this somehow makes you think that my family were non-achievers. wtf, D?
Wroclaw Boy
20 Jan 2012 #393
why can't there be a larger supply of apartments or houses?

Because the monetary system restricts it, thats similar to saying saying "why dont they just print more money"? the result would be hyper inflation.
RoughFlavors 1 | 100
20 Jan 2012 #394
Because the monetray system restricts it

can you tell me more? i'm not talking about building houses and selling them at a loss.
Wroclaw Boy
20 Jan 2012 #395
can you tell me more?

1. the money doesnt exist to pay for the materials and labour to build these houses and apartments.

2. If there were too many properties there would be an over supply and the value of the properties would decrease significantly, scarcity creates value.
RoughFlavors 1 | 100
20 Jan 2012 #396
the money doesnt exist

1. but it does. you open a business, you borrow money, you make something/build something, you sell it at a profit, you pay off your debt. the key is to make opening businesses and borrowing money easy. that's where the government steps in.

2. so far there are far too few properties. more properties would bring the price to a level where people can afford them and developers can still make money on them, just like anywhere else in the world.
milky 13 | 1,657
20 Jan 2012 #397
Still wondering where Milky's imaginary 5 bedroom houses are for 3x salary in Ireland, though.

Well this one is just two years average industrial wage:

daft.ie/searchsale.daft?id=629977

and here's a 5 bedroom

daft.ie/searchsale.daft?id=619789

and then for 15 times the average indusrial you can get this

daft.ie/searchsale.daft?id=597552

and 15 time average industrial wage lublin

domy.pl/apartment-for-sale-lublin-inne,en,918071327
Wroclaw Boy
20 Jan 2012 #398
but it does. you open a business, you borrow money, you make something/build something, you sell it at a profit, you pay off your debt. the key is to make opening businesses and borrowing money easy. that's where the government steps in.

debt creates money, but what we have been witnessing over the past few years is that the money doesnt actually exist to pay back the debts, hence recessions and a major global financial shite storm. Im not getting into all that at the moment.

2. so far there are far too few properties. more properties would bring the price to a level where people can afford them and developers can still make money on them, just like anywhere else in the world.

in theory yes, but thats not traditionally capitalist, we all know that burning fossil fuels is bad also - but yet we still persist. Essentially profit is the enemy.

Im off for the night.
gumishu 11 | 5,696
20 Jan 2012 #399
we all know that burning fossil fuels is bad also

hmm - as far I know the climate change hasn't been beyond doubt proven to be caused by man-made emissions of greenhouse gases - there are other competing theories
Harry
20 Jan 2012 #400
try being a doctor based on who you know and your willingness to work hard

Try being a doctor if you refuse to work hard. Same with the legal game: being very well connected can get you a start but you'll never be tier one unless you work damn hard.

Is Milky going to tell us how hard he works but still can't afford to buy a place?
wielki pan 2 | 250
21 Jan 2012 #401
Well Mr D where do I start, firstly you reasoning is that of those snotty nosed communists who governed Poland in the 70's, only a small percentage of people can do well in Poland that's why so many people went to the west for a better lifestyle, one of the benefits of living in a democratic country is that people can survive on a basic wage without the need to work overtime, you may want to work all day and night but don't impose this on other people who want to have a quality lifestyle. One of the main reason why you were successful (and others moving to Poland) was the fact that you were able to use saved income as opposed to the average pole who struggle week by week to make ends meet and had nothing. Secondly Mr D to understand the housing market in Poland you need to know what happened in Poland in the 80's and post communist times. You say poles had a lot of zlote but had nothing to spend it on, some poles had money, most had nothing. You also forget the pewex stores where everything was available, interesting enough the zlote is still worthless outside of Poland. You don't understand that the US dollar was the de facto currency in Poland in those times, 2 rates of payments for locals and ones from people from the west for example if you stayed at a hotel a local would pay in zlote and a tourist in US dollars, this would translate in a local paying 1$ a night to a tourist paying 100$.

D its sometimes very hard for a person with a full stomach, cigar in one hand and a fist load of dollars in the other understand the plight of somebody who has nothing.
Wroclaw Boy
21 Jan 2012 #402
hmm - as far I know the climate change hasn't been beyond doubt proven to be caused by man-made emissions of greenhouse gases - there are other competing theories

Isnt that a nice feel good thought manifested by the coal and oil profiteers, regardless the point im more concerned with is the depletion of vital resources, you cant easily create coal or oil. Its also bad for the wallet.
JonnyM 11 | 2,620
21 Jan 2012 #403
Isnt that a nice feel good thought manifested by the coal and oil profiteers,

More by reactionaries. Even the oil industry admits that climate change is man-made.
hythorn 3 | 580
21 Jan 2012 #404
Try being a doctor if you refuse to work hard

no one is talking about refusing to work hard
however Delph's argument seems to be that anyone can reach for the stars just by putting in some overtime

some people should realise their limitations
wielki pan 2 | 250
21 Jan 2012 #405
Even the oil industry admits that climate change is man-made.

news to me, please explain?
JonnyM 11 | 2,620
21 Jan 2012 #406
We in the industry are quite pragmatic about it. Why not use google instead of hijacking the thread?
milky 13 | 1,657
21 Jan 2012 #407
no one is talking about refusing to work hard

Reminds me of this book
wesjones.com/ehrenreich.htm
she speaks about how middle class America was simply guilty of playing by the rules of modern day capitalism.
People worked longer hours,extra hard, took bigger and bigger mortgages for escalating house prices, sent their children to extra classes, etc etc and then bang. The manipulators behind the scenes were pulling the strings all along. Reminds me of Bertrand Russell and his views on the protestant work ethic. He believed the preachers of it(PW-ethic) were actually members of the idle rich.
Wedle 16 | 496
21 Jan 2012 #408
, you cant easily create coal or oil.

Although if we take Poland with it's massive coal reserves, it is quite strange the country has entered into agreements with foreign oil companies for the production of shale gas, which will cause massive damage to the Polish environment. Why don't they pursue clean technology of Underground Coal Gasification. Poland have the scientists and the technology already exists, it only requires improvement. With clean UCG Poland becomes a major player in the energy sector.
hythorn 3 | 580
21 Jan 2012 #409
I have to say Milky, I did not have a problem with the American dream concept of applying yourself and getting an education as it was good in its day

however the mad rush to consume as many of the earth's resources as possible was a bit of a drawback

Nowadays it is going to destroy the planet in super quick time

I do a lot of work with Chinese companies and the entire country is like 1980s London under Thatcher but on acid
These are people who would gladly kill for a slice of the pie

intelligence takes precedence over any other attribute nowadays
if you are a dumb son of a b!tch you are likely to stay poor
it is not fair but life never was fair
application of one's talents is vital also

now a token statement on the Polish real estate market to hopefully prevent my post from getting binned

I was very taken by the film posted yesterday about Polish Americans and their demand to own their own home
the quote I liked (although not strictly true and poorly paraphrased) was 'own your home. if you owned your home no King, no Tsar, no one could take it away from you'

The psyche of the Poles and the East Germans is completely different. This rent-in-Germany mantra that everyone keeps trotting out might work for the East Germans but

it is a world apart for Polish people
Harry
21 Jan 2012 #410
"no one is talking about refusing to work hard however Delph's argument seems to be that anyone can reach for the stars just by putting in some overtime"

You seem to misunderstand, nobody is saying that success is as simple as working hard; however, without hard work, success is unlikely. And it's likely that people whining about how prices are so unfair are rather likely to not have put much effort in.....
hythorn 3 | 580
21 Jan 2012 #411
You seem to misunderstand, nobody is saying that success is as simple as working hard

no it is you who seems to misunderstand

read Delph's post

stop using this thread as a ruse to cyber bully Milky
Harry
21 Jan 2012 #412
" no it is you who seems to misunderstand

read Delph's post

stop using this thread as a ruse to cyber bully Milky"
He it's saying that without hard work success is unlikely, but hars work does not equate success.
As to Milky, if he hadn't insulted so many people here with comments about "snarks" and "lackeys" while spouting fantasist rubbish, he wouldn't draw so much attention.
delphiandomine 88 | 18,455
21 Jan 2012 #413
He called me a ******* Tory, I should be allowed to abuse him as much as I want!

(former card-carrying member of the SNP)
Wedle 16 | 496
21 Jan 2012 #414
Not everyone wants to be rich, some people know their place and they are happy to be workers, unless you are at the top of the tree, there are very few industries yon can get wealthy being a worker, therefore severe the umbilical cord and take the path of risk. Greed with a 'conscience' is good in my book. Its the business 'psychopaths' that need stringing up.
Avalon 4 | 1,068
21 Jan 2012 #415
stop using this thread as a ruse to cyber bully Milky

That is really funny, you should read the previous posts by Milky. Not only insulting to everyone that disagrees with his stupid, socialist fantasies but also very close to legal litigation with his false accusations.

He lost the right to respectful debate a long time ago.
JonnyM 11 | 2,620
21 Jan 2012 #416
That is really funny, you should read the previous posts by Milky

He accused me of being a property developer. Hah!
Avalon 4 | 1,068
21 Jan 2012 #417
He denegrates the very people he expects to provide him with somewhere to live. I imagine that he thinks doctors are doing him a favour when they treat him.
milky 13 | 1,657
21 Jan 2012 #418
Nowadays it is going to destroy the planet in super quick time

That's for sure;basically the id is king.

The psyche of the Poles and the East Germans is completely different.

It's the same in Ireland,after centuries of imperialist domination everyone wants to own their own bit of turf; It's understandable, but! easily exploited by gombeen men.

as for the Chinese
youtube.com/watch?v=w11nywVY9Vc
cms 9 | 1,255
21 Jan 2012 #419
This thread is rapidly descending into nonsense but to go back to avalons challenge about affordability. I have no idea where his 45 k figure comes from but maths obviously not a strong suit, nor economics by the look of it.

Average wage is 3000, multiply by 12 and it's 36k. Use an earnings multiple of 3x and it is 108 k. Add a 20 percent deposit and you get to about 130 k.

And that should be about the range that family accomodation starts in smaller towns. In bigger towns add a premium for higher wages and it would be circa pln 170 k in say gdansk and about pln 200 k in Warsaw. That also corresponds with the rent to buy equation I described earlier.

I think developers could make profits at those levels because they were doing so in 2004. Inflation has not been extreme since then but it is clear that developers margins were often 40 percent or more during the boom years. Whenever I meet one they stil normally like to pitch up in an ugly black jeep wearing massive belt buckles so they are probably still getting some margin.

But heaven forbid some of them will have to make a loss on some of their existing stock.

Not sure why the government should offer tax breaks to support the market, other sectors of the economy have to pay full price for their lunch. What the government should do is help the admin process and make it quicker to get permits - that would be win win for residents and developers.
milky 13 | 1,657
21 Jan 2012 #420
This thread is rapidly descending into nonsense

I agree, I'll ignore the slander from now on.

Average wage is 3000, multiply by 12 and it's 36k. Use an earnings multiple of 3x and it is 108 k. Add a 20 percent deposit and you get to about 130 k.

yes, the above is logical and true.


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