The BEST Guide to POLAND
Unanswered [6]  |  Archives [1] 
 
Witamy, Guest  |  Members
Home / News   127

Poland - Ukraine. Młodzież Wszechpolska against Ukrainians.



jon357 70 | 12,793    
12 Jul 2017  #31

but it has no place here.

Remember that Poland has always had a diverse set of viewpoints and attitudes to politics and culture (as has Ukraine, though the countries have faced a different set of challenges). Poland of course has a centuries old liberal tradition, something that Ukraine never had the chance to develop.

Is your idea of nationalism somewhat different to mine?

Nationalism, whether Polish, Ukrainian, British, Chinese etc is often the diametric opposite of patriotism.


dolnoslask 2 | 1,173    
12 Jul 2017  #32

Nationalism, whether Polish, Ukrainian, British, Chinese etc is often the diametric opposite of patriotism.
@ jon357

Can you explain that one as I had always thought the two were hand in hand.
mafketis 16 | 4,837    
12 Jul 2017  #33

Nationalism, whether Polish, Ukrainian, British, Chinese etc is often the diametric opposite of patriotism

There is no patriotism without some form of nationalism (though not all forms of nationalism include patriotism)
Ironside 46 | 8,406    
12 Jul 2017  #34

Nationalism, whether Polish, Ukrainian, British, Chinese etc is often the diametric opposite of patriotism.

Each nation has a different nationalism like each has a different folk music. Only a fool or a simpleton would have claimed that folk music is the same in every each country.

Polish nationalism technically is nationalism at all. The linguistic differences form a barrier here. Narodowiec and nationalist are not the same thing.
jon357 70 | 12,793    
12 Jul 2017  #35

Narodowiec and nationalist

Neither are an entirely positive thing, rather like the in Ukraine. One is in fact destructive.

A capacity to get past old injustices and to reconcile and make peace are a sign of patriotism and magnanimity. Few nations would wish to be seen as being defined by bearing historical grudges.
mafketis 16 | 4,837    
13 Jul 2017  #36

Few nations would wish to be seen as being defined by bearing historical grudges.

There you go projecting again.... not everyone in the world shares your values and/or wants to become a deracinated westernized cosmopolitan with no loytalty beyond their bank account.
dudar - | 25    
13 Jul 2017  #37

You have however tried to praise them

No, I never tried to praise someone. And I've just said the Catholic spirit they promote could be a unifying factor that Ukraine has to accept to become a part of Europe.

without answering the very simple question

Some questions do not have a simple answer and looking for the common ground depends on both sides. Poland's view of the situation is clear while Ukraine escapes from reality and avoids responsibility by all means - and that's the reason why we can't move on.
jon357 70 | 12,793    
20 Jul 2017  #38

off-topic posts binned
How does any of that relate to Mlodziez Wszechpolska's opinion about Stepan Bandera?
Ziemowit 8 | 2,637    
20 Jul 2017  #39

Stephan Bandera acted like a Somalian dog.
mafketis 16 | 4,837    
20 Jul 2017  #40

Was he himself that bad? All I know is wikipedia which suggests that he himself was not connected to massacres (being interred in a German camp at the time) and didn't necessarily agree with Lebed (who was involved in the massacres).
jon357 70 | 12,793    
20 Jul 2017  #41

Was he himself that bad?

In a word, no. He was a world apart from the nationalist thugs who were hell bent on exacting revenge for the forced polonisation of previous years.
Ironside 46 | 8,406    
20 Jul 2017  #42

Neither are an entirely positive thing,

Nationalist is not always a positive thing, it depend on a context and a country, Narodowiec is always a positive thing.

A capacity to get past old injustices and to reconcile and make peace are a sign of patriotism and magnanimity

are you slow? it is nor about grudges is about today and a fact that people like Bandera and others are being introduced into the Ukrainian schools as their national heroes.

Was he himself that bad? All I know is wikipedia which suggests that he himself was not connected to massacres

Righto, Hitler as far as historical fats are concerned never personally supervised mass killing never executed anyone himself, the same goes for Himmler he actually never have had killed anyone, once while witnessing an execution he became so sick he had to leave, he was a typical pen pusher, you can met such as he even today. I'm sure if you could travel in time you could have a nice chat with him and concluded that such a nice normal person cannot be that bad.

They created an ideology and a plan that had been executed. What are implying? That ethnic cleansings are generally OK?
jon357 70 | 12,793    
20 Jul 2017  #43

Nationalist is not always a positive thing, it depend on a context and a country,

It's never positive and is based on hatred, insecurity and exclusion.

Bandera and others are being introduced into the Ukrainian schools as their national heroes.

Of course. He was part of their independence struggle. He wasn't entirely positive, but as with Poland, Hungary, Russia, Myanmar, nationalist politics are never good.
mafketis 16 | 4,837    
20 Jul 2017  #44

It's never positive and is based on hatred, insecurity and exclusion.

That sounds like a jr high school student. Some degree of moderate nationalism is good while not enough nationalism and you get Cologne on New Years Eve and Rotherham (or Somalia or Cambodia or the Islamic State).
Ironside 46 | 8,406    
20 Jul 2017  #45

It's never positive and is based on hatred, insecurity and exclusion.

Nonsense, you don't know first thing about Polish ideology of the national democracy. Sorry, I have forgotten you're a commie for you everything what is not red enough is bad and fascism. whatever.

Of course. He was part of their independence struggle

Sure, he was also a part of the ideological movement that stand for mass murder, ethnic cleansing, primitive racism and was worse than Hitler and Stalin deeds.

Each of them had a world power on his disposal so they are famous, they i.e. Ukrainian fascists didn't even had a country and their activity was limited to Poles and Jews and it had a huge impact only locally. It doesn't mean its not important.

Your comparison of Bandera to other independence movements is insulting and ignorant.
jon357 70 | 12,793    
20 Jul 2017  #46

national democracy.

A tainted phrase, due to the toxic endecja regime and their successors

Remind us about the settlement and forced Polonisation of the region, in the years prior to it returning to Ukraine
Ziemowit 8 | 2,637    
20 Jul 2017  #47

off-topic posts binned

Yet I cannot find them in the off-topic bin!

forced Polonisation of the region, in the years prior to it returning to Ukraine

This was however not as bad as the Great Famine inflicted on the Ukraine by your beloved Soviet Union in the 1930s ...
jon357 70 | 12,793    
20 Jul 2017  #48

your beloved Soviet Union

Not mine. That's even a very strange thing to say.

Worth mentioning that the famine, though concentrated in the Ukraine, also affected parts of Russia, and is something that must never be repeated.
mafketis 16 | 4,837    
20 Jul 2017  #49

the famine, though concentrated in the Ukraine, also affected parts of Russia

The difference is that Ukraines care and Russians.... don't. Russians tend to show a clear pattern of not caring when their government kills people (don't matter who).
jon357 70 | 12,793    
20 Jul 2017  #50

We can see this now in Russia and within their sphere of influence. Between Poland and Ukraine, relations are good. It's only a few on either side who enjoy dwelling on past enmity
Ironside 46 | 8,406    
20 Jul 2017  #51

to the toxic endecja regime

What are you even talking about? Endecja never had been in power, I mean that once upon the time they have formed a coalition and took a part in a one of - pre -1926 coup - government for w while or some such but not for long and than JP and his sidekicks introduced an authoritarian undemocratic regime in Poland.

Remind us about the settlement and forced Polonisation of the region, in the years prior to it returning to Ukraine@ jon357

That is a very peculiar sentence. Let me tell that is a biased nonsense and then some of the same. If you request it I can straighten out your somewhat twisted and convoluted views. Just ask. However it has to be in the random thread.

However the main point is that you failed to blame it on ND just because they were not in power before the war.

This was however not as bad

What was not that bad? The fact that in the Polish state, Polish language and laws took the precedence? What Ukraine eh? Before 1991 there was no Ukraine, only a soviet administrative region had been called Soviet Republic Of Ukrainian which meant nothing in the reality. Ruled by the totalitarian regime from Moscow.

In that context incorporation and theft of the ancient Polish lands by the soviet union can be called 'returning to Ukraine' only by a soviet or a commie.
jon357 70 | 12,793    
20 Jul 2017  #52

Endecja never had been in power

Fortunately, though not without trying, including an attempted coup d'etat. Their heirs were certainly doing their damndest to slip in the back way before history intervened.

What Ukraine eh? Before 1991 there was no Ukraine, only a soviet administrative region had been called Soviet Republic

It's existed for centuries in one form or another, however (rather like a country you used to live in years ago) it hasn't always had its own state due to rapacious neighbours.
Ironside 46 | 8,406    
20 Jul 2017  #53

Fortunately, though not without trying, i

Why shouldn't be trying? They were majority of the popular support in Poland before the war. Only due to stupid leftist who introduce a moronic electoral system they couldn't get there.

As for trying, there were some individual and they had nothing to do with ND or little to do.

It's existed for centuries in one form or another,

BS, it existed as a geographical region. It is not about a state but about a nation. There was no nation, there was no culture to fall back to. No much of the history, less than Normandy, or Bretons, not even comparable with Burgundy.

It has little to do with neighbours. It date back to 12th century that whatever political organization that existed which by the way had been created by the conquering Normans/Rus from today Sweden, fall prey to the Mongolians.

However I'm talking about Lwow and this area. It has been land that the grand duchy of Kiev took from Poles in the 990', and that land was going to and fro until in 1340' Polish King inherited it and incorporated that land into the Polish Crown. Dusted.
Crow 137 | 5,910    
21 Jul 2017  #54

Młodzież Wszechpolska isn`t against Ukrainians. To say that are they against Ukrainians would be vulgarization of their approach. So, its not against but its critics of something that deserve to be criticized. Młodzież Wszechpolska is rather organization of Polish patriots. Even, at this moment, most honest and most realistic political organization in Poland.
jon357 70 | 12,793    
21 Jul 2017  #55

Only due to stupid leftist who introduce a moronic electoral system

And who would that be?

It is not about a state but about a nation.

Indeed, the Ukrainian nation. It exists.

in the 990', and that land was going to and fro until in 1340' Polish King inherited

Irrelevant.
Crow 137 | 5,910    
21 Jul 2017  #56

Its disgusting when this jon357 and Anglos likes him defend Ukrainians from Poles and from other Slavs. Truly disgusting and hypocritical. As if we don`t know what would desire sinister Anglos.
jon357 70 | 12,793    
21 Jul 2017  #57

Ukrainians

are

Slavs

Not that it's relevant to much. They're a proud nation, with a very strong sense of identity, and good relations with Poland, sharing a dislike of Russia
Crow 137 | 5,910    
21 Jul 2017  #58

jon357, you don`t know situation.

are

Actually, Serbians were first to recognize Ukrainians and unique nation. Confronted even Russia on that question. My dear, Ukraine is full of monuments to medieval Serbs. Then also, Serbians were first to recognize Ruthenians as also unique ethos.

Moreover, considering we are on internet where people coming to learn, I would give you first class information. Serbia (Yugoslavia) was first to recognize Ruthenians as nation, as national minority. Did you know that at a time when started dissolution of Yugoslavia, Serbia by its constitution was `state of all its citizens`. Much later, by pressure of EU, in accordance with aligning Serbian laws with EU`s standards, Serbia changed that and today is `state of Serbian people and all citizens who live in Serbia`. See, at the same time EU (western Europe) supported openly pro-Nazi Croatian secessionists, openly mafia pro-Islamic Albanian separatists and openly pro-Nazi-Islamic Bosnian separatists. Go figure that.

See? See how you know little. And that thanks to your following of mainstream media. Sure, that makes you more full of yourself but ultimately also more stupid. I mean, that`s how it appears to be.

They're a proud nation, with a very strong sense of identity

Essentially. Those who are 100% sure who they are. You have Ukrainians fully national aware, while majority still consolidate itself within national awareness.

and good relations with Poland, sharing a dislike of Russia

If you go to Russian forum you could say `good relations with Russia, sharing a dislike of Poland` and you wouldn`t be quite right, same as you now aren`t quite right. All in all, seasonal changes affects Ukrainians now.

Not that it's relevant to much.

Its very relevant. With all ethnic Slavs. Yes, its another question that Russia sometimes manipulated with that fact. On the other side, Russians think that other Slavs sometimes manipulate with Russia over that same Slavic meta-ethnicity. Let me tell you, that is also correct. That`s exactly how Polish prince Czartorisky via Serbia affected Russia prior to WWI and as you know, Poland got its independence in a final outcome. Go ask Russians how much they paid `pan-Slavic feelings` in their blood. Thinking of their causalities in WWI they would tell you to go to hell with your question, I guess.

Not to mention, when we speak about `Ukrainians` (nationally aware and those who would yet become) that at least 50% of them have Serbian blood due to mixing in last let`s say 400-450 years. See, at the same time at least 20-30% ethnic Poles and Russians have Serbian blood. What I want to tell you, we Serbians knows what is relevant for Ukrainians, not Russians. Not Poles.

Do you now understand. At least something.
Ziemowit 8 | 2,637    
21 Jul 2017  #59

Before 1991 there was no Ukraine

I shall remind you that a Ukraine was created as a result of the Treaty of Hadiach on the 16the of September 1658. It was designed to elevate the Cossacks and Ruthenians to the position equal to that of Poland and Lithuania in the Polish-Lithuanian union and in fact transforming the Polish-Lithuanian Commonwealth into a Polish-Lithuanian-Ruthenian Commonwealth or Rzeczpospolita Trojga Narodów.

As they declared in the act, they united themselves with one another as: wolni z wolnymi, równi z równym, zacni z zacnymi.
Crow 137 | 5,910    
21 Jul 2017  #60

I shall remind ........ transforming the Polish-Lithuanian Commonwealth into a Polish-Lithuanian-Ruthenian Commonwealth or Rzeczpospolita Trojga Narodów.

By the God, good reminder. Commonwealth was really something. Not only for those times but even now, to me, sound as FREEDOM. Sarmatism was behind that. Our deep loyalty to the paths of the ancients. EU is joke in comparison to Commonwealth. Abominable joke.

I want Poland to be capable to offer FREEDOM once more!!!!!!




Home / News / Poland - Ukraine. Młodzież Wszechpolska against Ukrainians.
Click this icon to move up back to the quoted message. Bold Italic [quote]

 
To post as Guest, enter a temporary and unique username or login and post as a member.