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Poland - Ukraine. Młodzież Wszechpolska against Ukrainians.



Ironside 44 | 8,292    
22 Jul 2017  #61

shall remind you that a Ukraine was created as a result of the Treaty of Hadiach on the 16the of September 1658.

No, it wasn't. It supposed to create Duchy of Rus/Ruthenania. It never happened. So called Cossacks failed to deliver on their part of the bargain.

It was designed to elevate the Cossacks and Ruthenians

What? You are confused. Matter little, it had never happened. No point talking about it.


Crow 138 | 5,830    
7 Oct 2017  #62

Interesting development

Serbia now officially mediate between USA and Russia when it comes to Ukraine.

b92.net/info/vesti/index.php?yyyy=2017&mm=10&dd=07&nav_category=78&nav_id=1311673
Ziemowit 8 | 2,575    
7 Oct 2017  #63

No, it wasn't. It supposed to create Duchy of Rus/Ruthenania. It never happened.

It was. Ukraine is just a modern name for Ruthenia. So it did happen, be it for a short period of time, since the Treaty of Hadiach was signed.

Serbia now officially mediate between USA and Russia when it comes to Ukraine.

Good for Serbia. The role of Poland in Ukraine has been greatly reduced over the last two years and even the Czech Republic is able to exercise more influence on Ukraine than Poland now. So let's wish Serbia all the luck.
Crow 138 | 5,830    
8 Oct 2017  #64

Good for Serbia.

Yes. We now clearly see why enemy of Serbs and Slavs hurried to destroy Yugoslavia, while country was in transition from communist to democratic rule. Enemy was aware of enormous diplomatic and military potential of the Serbians on the long run, when things in the world consolidate in strategic sense. Naive and stupid people thinks that Russians giving that strategic force to Serbs but, its far from complete truth. True, Russians have interest that Serbs exist. They have interest that all Slavs exist. We are all natural Russian shield on Russian western border. So Russia exploit that, same as other Slavs exploit fact that Russia exist. Some Slavs more successful then others, live in balance between Russia and western Europe. For example, Poland also exploit fact of Russia`s existence. Two countries appeared to be in constant antagonism but, try to imagine Europe without Russia. In that Europe, Poland would be soon overrun by Germany. Its just a fact.

So, beside Russia, Serbs as they are, are also important for China. Many people don`t know that Serbians mediated and then even defined Russian and Chinese border, for what, both powers expressed great gratitude to Serbs. And it was in time when Serbs themselves struggled to liberate itself from Ottomans and Autstro-Hungaria. Then, Serbian autonomy within A-H, Serbian voivodeship, created by blessings from Vienna due to Serbian military contribution against Ottomans, served as shelter for many Slavic dissidents. In some street of Novi Sad, protected by the Serbs, modern states of Czechs and Slovaks were initiated. Polish Adam Mizkiewich and Prince Czartorisky, relied on Serbs as main factor of Poland`s liberation from both, A-H and Russia. All South Slavs and all Balkans, when they dreamed of their freedom, dreamed that dream in Serbia. Actually, they even initiated their rebellions against Ottomans and Austrians, on territory of Serbia and then rebellion moved farther.

Only Serbian conflicts with Russia occurred when Serbs supported resistance of other Slavs to Russian domination. But, Russians were able to live with it, considering that Serbs, by default, never supported non-Slavic invasion of Russia. Then, when 160 years ago Serbia in its constitution set amendment `Even if slave come to a land of Serbs, he is slave no more`, USA protested, as well as all western European powers and even Russia resisted to that Serbian amendment. Later, they all started to admire that one small country so stubbornly insist on some values, even if it seams suicidal in diplomatic sense. Principally, if one country ever behaved with dignity, Serbia is such example.

So, even during communism, dictator Tito was able to profit on Serbian diplomatic heritage. To have support of Soviets and Chinese, of USA and of Third world countries. That way Yugoslavia created Non-Aligned movement and even more increased its diplomatic influence.

The role of Poland in Ukraine has been greatly reduced over the last two years and even the Czech Republic is able to exercise more influence on Ukraine than Poland now.

Serbs had two historical provinces in Ukraine. Plus, Serbs have extremely positive historical credit in the region. They were able to cooperate with local Russians against Ottomans, at the same time being able to protect Ukrainians from Russians, often preventing bloodshed between them and recognizing Ukrainian specifics. And also, Serbs there often mediated between Poland and Russia, while in WWII, they were able to support Poles during Nazi banderist onslaught.

Right now, in some regions of Ukraine, people there would rather see Serbian Chetniks then Ukrainian or Russian army. In my opinion, Serbs would ask both, and Ukraine and Russia, to give up from something and to achieve compromise.

So let's wish Serbia all the luck.

Thank you. Luck is always immeasurable factor.
SigSauer 1 | 57    
8 Oct 2017  #65

@Crow

What total and utter nonsense. Have you lived in Ukraine? I have. Have you been offered Ukrainian citizenship for what you've done for the country? If not, then your opinion is seriously off the mark here. Ukrainians are Ukrainians, end of story. They're proud, extremely patriotic, and there is NO support for Russian terrorists in the East of the country. Ukraine will not give up 1 inch of territory without extreme bloodshed, as it should be. The Budapest memorandum guarantees the territorial inviolability of Ukraine, and despite the international community dropping the ball, the Ukrainians now have the largest standing army in Europe. You people can talk about whatever you want, but how DARE you propose carving up Ukraine, do you know how offensive such a proposal is to Ukrainians and people who love Ukraine?
SigSauer 1 | 57    
8 Oct 2017  #66

@Crow

Do I care that you're Serbian? Not really.

Ukraine's borders were agreed to, as was its constitution by all oblasts, POST-Soviet and POST-Communism. Under the Ukrainian constitution no oblast can declare independence without ALL oblasts voting in a referendum. Hence, the referendum in OCCUPIED Crimea is illegal under international law, and was held at gun point. The Eastern regions of Luhansk and Donetsk AT MOST had 25% ethnic Russians, and of those many still spoke Ukrainian regularly. You didn't like when Kosovo declared independence, why would you defend people who do something similar in another country? That totally ignores the fact however, that it was NEVER a grass roots movement in Ukraine for separation, and instead a Russian GRU military operation spearheaded by Igor 'Strelkov' Girkin and his useful Ukrainian idiots Vyacheslav Ponomarev (since executed like all the other Russian parasites - Motorola, Givi, etc). In the post WWII order, borders were agreed upon, these are international norms and we ought to respect them (I am and was against the independence of Kosovo by the way).

The fact remains that Russian terrorists are occupying parts of Ukraine. You're going to tell me about Ukraine, when my best friends mom had her apartment blown to bits by Uragan rockets fired on CIVILIANS by Russian terrorists. Again when I lived in Ukraine in the summer of 2015, Russian terrorists fired Uragans on Mariupol and killed 30 civilians. There were no military targets, only apartment blocks. Ukraine is defending its sovereignty and territory. The Donbas-1 and Donbas-2 battalions are comprised almost exclusive of people FROM Donbasa. The Ukrainian 95th Paratrooper regiment is almost 80% residents of Donetsk and Luhansk oblasts.

Sell your Russia Today, Rossiya 24, TASS, lies and propaganda to someone who didn't live in the country and experience this, to someone who doesn't own a business in the country.

SLAVA UKRAINI.............GEROM SLAVA
Crow 138 | 5,830    
8 Oct 2017  #67

@SigSauer

You are indoctrinated by false facts. Do you see me ask for some Serbian territory within Ukraine? No, I don`t ask, no matter every historical right. So, why would you, on the contrary to historical right, ask for something to belong to Ukrainians and they don`t have that right? It would belong to Ukrainians if local Russians agree to it but, see, they are also natives there, they have to be asked and they disagree.

Let Ukrainians form their ethnic state on healthy basis.

SLAVA UKRAINI

Slava!

You didn't like when Kosovo declared independence, why would you defend people who do something similar in another country?

Yes. Autonomy to Donbas within Ukraine. I am for that. Donbas to Ukraine, Kosovo to Serbia, Silesia to Poland, Crimea to Russia. Poles are exterminated in Ukraine in time and they don`t mind, so they would be satisfy to have Silesia, at least.
SigSauer 1 | 57    
8 Oct 2017  #68

@Crow

If Donbas wants to be autonomous, they can do it with the crap sliver of land they are squatting on with their Russian parasite buddies, but it will not be a part of Ukraine. The geopolitical impetus for wanting an 'autonomous' Donbas within Ukraine is so that Russia can exert its influence over independent Ukraine. They no longer have a puppet in office like Yanu, who is willing to pilfer $40bln USD from one of the poorest countries in Europe and put it in his personal bank account (que Putins personal slush fund Rosinvest). Ukraine will never let that happen.

If I believe the Russian lies that all of the Russian soldiers who have been captured in Ukraine were there on "vacation," or that the day before they were captured they were discharged from the Russian Army, well then I would really like to see one of our ships with 5,000 US Marines dock in Odessa for "holiday."

Poland supposed to be the main topic here
Roger5 2 | 1,450    
8 Oct 2017  #69

Poles are exterminated in Ukraine in time and they don`t mind, so they would be satisfy to have Silesia, at least.

Sig, why bother?
Ironside 44 | 8,292    
8 Oct 2017  #70

Ukraine is just a modern name for Ruthenia.

No, it isn't. Just give it up, it iss clear you know nothing about it.

Serbs had two historical provinces in Ukraine.

Yeah, Nutville and Asylum. Anyway who cares about minute deitals after all Europens are Sarmatian, so why bother if Serbia exist or not, it make no diffrence after all.

Ukraine's borders

It isn't that simple but it is a wrong thread to talk about it.
Crow 138 | 5,830    
8 Oct 2017  #71

Sig, why bother?

What`s wrong with that sentence? What I told wrong? Bearers of Nazi ideology committed genocide on Poles in what is now Ukraine and bearers of same ideology walking free in Ukraine right now. So, obviously, in these circumstances, hardly that some Polish cultural autonomy, at least, could be granted to some regions in Ukraine. Poles there must be happy to stay alive, in newly forming ethnic Ukrainian state.

The geopolitical impetus for wanting an 'autonomous' Donbas within Ukraine is so that Russia can

Not even autonomy? In other words, there is the example to Poles, what they can expect if themselves ask for autonomy. `Cover story` is prepared.

Yeah, Nutville and Asylum. Anyway who cares about minute deitals after all Europens are Sarmatian, so why bother if Serbia exist or not, it make no diffrence after all.

It was 200 years ago. Not back in our common Sarmatian past.
SigSauer 1 | 57    
8 Oct 2017  #72

@Crow

You really just exemplified how little you know about Ukraine-Polish relations. My closest friend in Kyiv is a diplomat for the Polish embassy. It is Poland's MOST IMPORTANT diplomatic posting! They share a common enemy, Russia, and because of that the relations between Kyiv and Warsaw have never been stronger since 2014. There are 0 "Nazis" on the streets, 0 "nazis" in Parliament, and this Banderistan, Banderovyts nonsense is largely Russian propaganda seeking to drive a wedge between Poland and Ukraine. You base your opinions off of the propaganda you see on TV, and I base mine on first hand knowledge, first hand relationships with Ukrainian diplomats, military officers, and battalion fighters. As in, I WAS THERE, you weren't.
Ziemowit 8 | 2,575    
8 Oct 2017  #73

No, it isn't. Just give it up, it iss clear you know nothing about it.

Yes, it is. You know nothing about it and are talking out of your ass as usual.
Crow 138 | 5,830    
8 Oct 2017  #74

They share a common enemy, Russia, and because of that the relations between Kyiv and Warsaw have never been stronger since 2014.

If its up to Serbs and we see that important talks goes in Belgrade, Russia won`t be common enemy of Poland and Ukraine. Russia would be prevented to meddling, if tries that and, that`s it. No eternal antagonism, for the sake of foreign interests. As for meddling, it would be forbidden to all, on west, east, south and north. We Serbs have other plans then to waste our energy on inter-Slavic conflicts to the end of time.

You base your opinions off of the propaganda you see on TV, and I base mine on first hand knowledge, first hand relationships with Ukrainian diplomats, military officers, and battalion fighters.

sure. I am also important diplomat. Right now looking myself in the mirror and love that what I see.

As in, I WAS THERE, you weren't.

My spirit is free and know no boundaries.
Ironside 44 | 8,292    
8 Oct 2017  #75

ou know nothing about it and are talking out of your ass as usual.

Z-wit if you wnat to talk on this level so be it. Takling out of your ass is your forte. On par with your buddies Harry and delph.

Yes, it is.

Of course not, were do you take your info from? La Gazzetta for Soviet inttelligencia? Just give it a rest.
Crow 138 | 5,830    
8 Oct 2017  #76

It is interesting how official Poland, ``for higher good`` ignoring reality. One gets impression how are lives of Poles that died in genocide, in WWII, in Ukraine, very cheap for today`s Poland`s ruling establishment. On the other side, we see such stories all around the world. One generation suffer in some conflict and the next generation building ``bridges``. Its called reconciliation. But, what is ugly in this particular story is that Poles who still live in Ukraine, live as ghosts. They must think either as it suits to official Ukraine, either to official Poland. So, I didn`t heard that anybody ask for Polish autonomy in what is now Ukraine. Did you? If Poles there start to have some wishes they would be labeled as traitors of both- Ukraine and Poland. I can imagine. In other words, these people are sacrificed. Let their suffering serve to something and somebody. I would pray that all this have sense to some new generations.
Vesko Vukovic - | 3    
8 Oct 2017  #77

Crow it is because of people like you and Crnogorac that the entire Serbian people are suffering. You nationalists are giving people a false hope. Milošević led suicidal politics for our nation.

What are our troops doing in Ukraine in the first place? Bring our soldiers home! Why cannot we be more like Poland...

Look at the Poles as an example, they are playing it smart, they are focusing on developing their economy and are wisely staying out, let the big boys handle the mess in Ukraine as well as in Syria.

Vladimir Putin does not care about Serbs, the Russians only want to use Serbia, I remember very well how we were sold in 1999: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/NATO_bombing_of_Yugoslavia

Crow and Crnogorac where were your Russians? Our so called "Orthodox brothers". They stood idly by and did nothing, as cruise missiles and cluster bombs were raining down on us, I had to spend 3 months in an underground atomic shelter.

Putin is going to betray the poor people of Novorussia too, how else would he allow them to be mercilessly massacred and slaughtered by the Ukrainian Neo-Nazis without sending in the Russian army to help.
Crnogorac3 1 | 239    
8 Oct 2017  #78

@VV

Do you realise that without Russia's logistical support Novorussia would not have lasted for more than 48 hours? Sadly many people like you are very naive and don't understand that an open Russian offensive would escalate into a WW3 because then NATO would take Ukraine's side.

This is now a stalemate position. Novorussia can't progress without an open Russian offensive and Ukraine can't progress anyway. However, time works against Ukraine and in Russia's favor because Ukraine is already on the edge of an economic collapse and it's a matter of 3-5 years when it will collapse completely. When that happens, there will be a Maidan II but with reversed roles.

The Judeo-West will not give them any material support. Trump already cut out 70% of support for the criminal Junta fascists in Kiev. Their economic collapse is inevitable.

youtu.be/9cQ2ddv4qQU

I already explained in an another thread why Russia can't go into an open offensive. Would you sacrifice the future of 140 million Russians for 7 million Russians in the Donbas?

If you carefully analyse the history of the United States of America it shows us that there is one shameful equation:War=Profit. Whenever America had huge economic problems it was necessary to create a World War in order for USA to overcome them. For example, prior to WWI the Americans had the unconvertible dollar. When WWI began Americans were in debt and owed money to the British and the French. By the time WWI ended the British and the French became indebted to America.

Let us also remember the Great Depression
en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Great_Depression

Do not forget where the 2008 world economic crisis originated. I believe in the near future we are coming closer to another global conflict.
Dirk diggler 4 | 1,159    
9 Oct 2017  #79

Oh the IMF has sunk their claws in deep into Ukraine. They are like vultures (many of whom have equally large beaks) feeding on an emaciated human with a fading pulse. The average Ukranian makes some $200 $300 (hence why Poland is seen as land of opportunity to them even if they're only making $1k a month) yet the first order of business was further austerity and belt tightening. The junta had wonderful ideas and patriotism at its core but little political experience - at least they're learning now though. They wanted to do something about the corruption too and it looks like slowly Ukraine is becoming gradually more transparent although it still lags far behind - but hey gotta start somewhere... Unfortunately, most had little experience governing and were at the deputy level or PM's. Furthermore, these guys are at the mercy of a poor post Soviet system who's population weary of war, corruption and intrigue ruling for decades, not to mention saboteurs from the Russian side as well as many other things. I mean Kazakhstan (Yes, the land of Borat) has higher standards now.. Peace and stability will come to Ukraine just not yet...

One of the reasons why Russia didn't help Serbia out in the 90's is because they couldn't afford to pay their soldiers their $100 or whatever a month salary, let alone provide aid to counter NATO. I don't I think I have to tell anyone the state of the Russian economy in the 90's... Furthermore, Russians instantly became very pro-western as Communism faded and their wild west democratic capitalism took hold. Once NATO bombed Belgrade, that changed and the relationship has only been more and more tense.

The pussy Obama didn't do anything to help Ukraine either. pffttt yeah cuz sanctions work sooo well... So much for the Budapest Agreement and protecting Ukraine's territorial integrity... Maybe Trump will take charge and knock Russia back a bit.. who knows.. Either way I don't see Ukraine recovering Crimea anytime soon. It's truly sad. We Slavs have been at each others throats for so long and even are right now.

Also it wasn't Trump who ended funding for some of the volunteer battalions - it was Congress. It won't matter anyway because now more and more the US is leaning towards providing aid (possibly including lethal) to Ukraine. Many of the volunteer battalioms are now incorporated into the national guard, territorial defense, etc. It's a similar situation in PL with 100k of the weekend warrior militia types now receiving formal training, a little stipend, and are gradually becoming more integrated into the territorial defense forces.
Crnogorac3 1 | 239    
9 Oct 2017  #80

The Russians have made a clear statement that if Ukraine joins NATO, then the US will install the nuclear warheads which are only 5 minutes away from Moscow, and this is the red line which the Russians will not allow to be crossed. In that case a full scale Russian invasion of Ukraine could be expected.

NATO knows that, Ukraine knows that and Russia knows that too.

That's the reason why Russia is keeping the low intensity open-conflict in Novorussia alive, because by the NATO rules one country cannot join the alliance until it has unsolved territorial issues. Of course, NATO can break that rule and make an exception but I highly doubt that. If Ukraine would join NATO, Russia would invade it immediately and in that case NATO has two options. Either to go to war with Russia which would turn into a nuclear-war and not even the cockroaches would survive it, or the second option is to stand aside and bark just like they are doing now.

the US is leaning towards providing aid (possibly including lethal) to Ukraine.

The US can arm the Ukraine all they want, but it won't make any difference because officially Ukrops are fighting against the rebels of Novorussia but in reality they are fighting against FSB+Russian Army.

In the last 3 years the whole Ukraine air-force was taken down two times by the "rebels". First they took it down, then US armed them with aviation from neighboring post-Soviet countries like Poland, Romania, Hungary etc. Then the "rebels" took down the second air-force and now Ukrops practically don't have an air-force anymore. Of course you wont read about that in the media because it would be a huge moral blow for Ukraine and for the whole NATO Alliance.

So no matter how much NATO arms them, they don't have a chance against the Russian Army and FSB.

youtube.com/watch?v=LB79pa4KCFc

Serbs also came to help in Novorussia.
SigSauer 1 | 57    
9 Oct 2017  #81

@Crnogorac3

Could you please stop calling it Novorossiya, there is no such place on a map, it does not exist. You can refer to them as the "Self-declared DNR republic," or "Self-declared LNR republic," or simply "Terrorists in the East." There are no freedom fighters there, only FSB, GRU, Russian regulars, and Kadyrovyts.

Also, your use of a pejorative racial slur to refer to Ukrainians as "Ukrop"(dill) is unwelcome here, and i almost certain it is a violation of the terms of service to be on this board. Take your racial bigotry somewhere else. Russia has 0 vested interest in Ukraine, they are a sovereign country, and have the RIGHT to chart their own path, and to make alliances with WHOMEVER THEY PLEASE. слава україні
Atch 12 | 1,746    
9 Oct 2017  #82

Whenever America had huge economic problems it was necessary to create a World War in order for USA to overcome them

As far as I'm aware there have only been two world wars and America not only didn't start either of them, they were reluctant to get involved. America had to be dragged kicking and screaming into World War One and only saw action during the last six months of conflict. They didn't come into World War Two until December of 1941, more than two years after the start.
SigSauer 1 | 57    
9 Oct 2017  #83

@Atch

Shhh.......facts don't fit the agenda here, that countries aren't responsible for their own problems, it's all America's fault. So far this week on this forum, I've heard people talking about Slavic unity while simultaneously driving a wedge between Poland and Ukraine by repeating propaganda, and then earlier someone extolling to virtues of "uncorrupted communism" whatever the F--- that is?!, on a forum whose sole purpose is to discuss Poland, a country who was ravaged and lived under the thumb of communist oppression for 60 years, and caused UNTOLD suffering and misery for its people.

Carry on.
Atch 12 | 1,746    
9 Oct 2017  #84

Well there's two Serbians who post here regularly. One is Crow who's basically as mad as a hatter. He's quite likeable though. He's the fourm's 'Eccentric in Residence'. Most of us have decided to find him charming :)) The other is Crnogorac who's a rather different kettle of fish. He's saner than Crow therefore not as easy to like! The best thing to do is take no notice of Crow but have a go at the other one by all means. Who was going on about uncorrupted communism, was that somebody else??
Roger5 2 | 1,450    
9 Oct 2017  #85

I heard he was Bulgarian. Whatever. Anyone who prays to a two-headed pagan god is worth having on the forum.
johnny reb 13 | 2,456    
9 Oct 2017  #86

America had to be dragged kicking and screaming into World War One and only saw action during the last six months.

SO you are saying that you are or are not appreciative to America for saving Europe's sorry butt twice now.
Dirk diggler 4 | 1,159    
9 Oct 2017  #87

America only entered WW1 because the British were on their last legs and the British Zionists (namely Lord Rothschild) basically said, hey after the war is over give us Palestine and you'll have American support overnight. And so it happened - Balfour Declaration. The Brits made a similar deal with the Saudis to join them against against the Ottoman Empire.

@Crnogorac3
I'm aware of the poor state of the Ukrainian army. Its been neglected by years of corruption.
Crow 138 | 5,830    
9 Oct 2017  #88

Let us back on topic, as brat Admin likes to say.

Młodzież Wszechpolska isn`t against Ukrainians. No, this organization of young patriotic Polish Slavs, merely criticize rise of new Nazis in Ukraine under the sponsorship of EU, evil granny Merkel and Germany.

mw

mw

Long live awaken younglings of Poland!
Crow 138 | 5,830    
9 Oct 2017  #89

Poland supposed to be the main topic here

Dobri Pane, can I present latest statement of Czech president Zeman in case with Ukraine? In my opinion its in connection with topic here.
SigSauer 1 | 57    
9 Oct 2017  #90

@Crow

Since this is related to Poland in a way. Please tell me other than Praviy Sektor (Right Sector) who is an extremely fringe political element that the government in Kyiv is OPENLY HOSTILE to, where are the Nazis? Please name them, other than Oleg Lyashko who is really just a nationalist, not a white supremacist, who are the 'Nazis'? I lived there for several years (3 blocks from parliament near ulitsa Institutskaya) and never could spot a single one. Like I mentioned previously, trying to stir up a complete false, intellectually dishonest argument that there are ANY "Nazis" running things in Kyiv is only to serve sewing disunion between Warsaw and Kyiv, and thankfully it's not working on anyone with more than 3 brain cells.




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