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Poland - Ukraine. Młodzież Wszechpolska against Ukrainians.



Arekbrown 1 | -    
5 Jul 2017  #1

The representatives of our organization called Młodzież Wszechpolska finally have forced the Polish government to oppose the admission of (the) Ukraine into Europe if it will keep praising the Organization of Ukrainian Nationalists and the Ukrainian Insurgent Army including Stepan Bandera - one of their leaders.

News: 112.international/politics/ukraine-to-not-enter-europe-with-bandera-polish-mfa-18504.html


Zman123    
5 Jul 2017  #2

You guys from MW are sickko fascists. Your bigoted opinions interest no one. Not to mention that you play into Putin's hand.
gregy741 3 | 981    
5 Jul 2017  #3

i understand being ultra patriotic ,but glorifying mass murders and genocides ,chopping kiddies..you gotta be fuked up weirdo.
i mean,its 21 century,and Ukraine is the only country who openly glorify SS units,and banderist Genocides .even their leaders are found highling ,its like they come out from some cave.

its just plain idiotic.if i were Ukrainian,i would apologise for this barbarity and kept quiet about this part of their history-but no,they are proud AND LOUD.

its like they dont understand,this animal barbarity they done, its embarrassing for normal thinking people ,nothing to be proud about.
its not 2000 BC when crucifying kids was considered cool.
FOK EU anyway
NoToForeigners 7 | 864    :-(
6 Jul 2017  #4

You guys from MW are sickko fascists. Your bigoted opinions interest no one.

And you're no one to tell Poles what is and isn't good for them. Bye.
jon357 70 | 12,793    
6 Jul 2017  #5

You guys from MW are sickko fascists.

Fortunately nobody takes them seriously.
Crow 137 | 5,910    
6 Jul 2017  #6

Polish government to oppose the admission of (the) Ukraine into Europe if it will keep praising the Organization of Ukrainian Nationalists and the Ukrainian Insurgent Army including Stepan Bandera

This is good and no matter who suggested this. Its not alright that political followers of Stepan Bandera even exist on political scene in Ukraine. If EU and certain governments within EU, such are Croatian or Estonian, does not react on awakening of fascism and Nazi movement, at least Poland needs to have sane policy.
dudar - | 25    
6 Jul 2017  #7

I don't know if Ukraine is ready to join the EU in its current condition. Looks like they simply are not ready and that Bandera thing is just one of the reasons.
Crow 137 | 5,910    
6 Jul 2017  #8

Hardly that is Bandera reason for EU. Look Estonia, Croatia, rise of Nazi and right wing movements on the west of Europe. EU`s rhetoric is one thing, reality is something else. I suppose, EU ruling establishment let rise of fascism and Nazism as kind of pressure of migrants, in order to accelerate their assimilation into the societies (message is clear- `If you differ you are target`). Also, right wingers are let grow in order to soften social tensions within domicile population. At the same time, that same EU establishment used Islamists for its cause but, once they were unleashed Islamists included EU among its targets. Playing with fire is what EU doing.
dudar - | 25    
6 Jul 2017  #9

Ukraine sees itself like a unique country in Europe (someway reminds me of America's exceptionalism) and they believe their EU joining will be a gift to Europe. Still I think Ukraine doesn't have much in common with us and doesn't have something they could offer but of course they want to have the benefits of being a part of EU.
Ironside 46 | 8,407    
6 Jul 2017  #10

You guys from MW are sickko fascists. Your bigoted opinions interest no one.

Who are you? Some guest anonymous account. phew!

Fortunately nobody takes them seriously.

Lefties crazies do take them seriously.
Harry 81 | 13,431    
6 Jul 2017  #11

You guys from MW are sickko fascists.

They're cowards too. I'd pay good money to see them discussing their policies with a few gentlemen from the Azov debating team.

Your bigoted opinions interest no one.

The only interesting thing about him is why he left '-shirt' off the end of his username.
jon357 70 | 12,793    
6 Jul 2017  #12

that Bandera thing

In fact there are a variety of opinions within Ukraine on Bandera.

Worth remembering too that there's a difference between Bandera and the Banderists.
dudar - | 25    
6 Jul 2017  #13

In fact there are a variety of opinions within Ukraine on Bandera.

Yes, but Ukraine's government praises Bandera and that is like the official 'religion' accepted by the majority of Ukrainians and they seem to be quite satisfied with that.
jon357 70 | 12,793    
6 Jul 2017  #14

No. There is a diversity of opinion there, just as there is in Poland. You can't say "Ukrainians think ..." any more than you can say "Poles think ...".
dudar - | 25    
11 Jul 2017  #15

Agree, but I'm not saying that Ukraine doesn't have a diversity of opinion. According to what I've learned from media and other sources, in Ukraine the majority supports the government which praises Bandera and that is the official position. For Poland that's unacceptable because the massacres of Poles in Volhynia and Eastern Galicia were directly linked with Bandera's policy. I'm sure there are people in Ukraine that disagree with the official position of Ukraine's government, but these people have no chance to speak openly about it without being persecuted by Ukrainian nationalists or someone else. And Ukraine's government is friendly towards forces that suppress almost everyone who have any objection to the official position.
jon357 70 | 12,793    
11 Jul 2017  #16

but I'm not saying that Ukraine doesn't have a diversity of opinion.

As does Poland.

In both countries, most people don't harp on about events 70 years ago. Most look to the present and the future. Relations between both countries are good.
dudar - | 25    
12 Jul 2017  #17

@jon357
Sometimes you can't just move on and look to the present and the future without looking back. Heaviness of Ukraine's crimes against Poland is not the thing that Poles will forget. Just it.
jon357 70 | 12,793    
12 Jul 2017  #18

without looking back.

You forget the distinction between quiet reflection with a determination to forgive and move on, and a morbid dwelling on the past.

Poles

Some Poles.
gregy741 3 | 981    
12 Jul 2017  #19

In both countries, most people don't harp on about events 70 years ago

yes,am all about leaving past to historians.but,there is something wrong when leaders of country cheer and glorify brutal thugs and criminals.
hopefully Ukrainians wake up and move away from that banderist idiocy.its already cost them Crimea and Donbass,they lost due to their idiotic violent ideology
dudar - | 25    
12 Jul 2017  #20

@jon357
Ukraine tries to present the darkest events in its history as something heroic. They praise UPA butchers who committed genocide of Poles and that shouldn't be ignored by Poland and Europe.

And how can we determine the exact numbers? There are Some Poles that don't give a crap, Some Poles who are really insulted by Ukraine's stance on the genocide, Some Poles believe Ukraine is guilty and must take responsibility for the 100,000 massacred Poles. I believe the biggest part of Poles is not indifferent to it.

@gregy741
They do not even try...
Marsupial - | 924    
12 Jul 2017  #21

Dudar.....i agree 100%.
jon357 70 | 12,793    
12 Jul 2017  #22

Ukraine

Is a geographical area. There's a wide range of differing opinions there about the past and about Poland's role in their national history.

And you will never change the cold hard fact that a national hero in one country may be hated in another. Ask Ukrainians in Volhynia and Polesie about Pilsudzki.

I believe the biggest part of Poles is not indifferent to it.

Only a few dwell on past wrongs, and those who do should pull themselves together and move on. Worth reading up on forgiveness - I can recommend you a very good book by a Polish writer. The guy's name was Lolek Wojtyla.
Ironside 46 | 8,407    
12 Jul 2017  #23

And you will never change the cold hard fact that a national hero in one country may be hated in another. A

So, it is OK for German to build statuses of Hitler, Himmler and a few others. To Prise them as the great heroes and to prise by their ideology by Merkel.

Sometimes there is much more at stake than the natural differences in a historical perspective on the same historical figures between different nations.

Is a geographical area

No, it is a country created a by very recent bloom (or very late bloom) of nationalism. It is a new country with a new borders born in 1990/91.

Only a few dwell on past wrongs,

You are the one talking. Just keep your advice for yourself. You and Harry all the time dwell on holocaust, anti-Semitism and whatnot, somehow Poles are to doing this big mea culpa even in factual evidence it doesn't really makes much sense from the rational point of view. Move forward - why don't you? As no one in Poland advocates the final solution or claim that it was a good thing or claim that Himmler was a hero and need a statue because he was fighting against the soviets union.

Here people who know what they talk about have a valid and justified reason to be concerned as to the direction the Ukrainian nation is heading by taking in as national heroes the most vile racist, totalitarian genocidal scum with the most primitive mythology on a racial purity and ethnic cleansing.
dudar - | 25    
12 Jul 2017  #24

Is a geographical area.

That is inhabited by the people who chose their government which represents the will of majority. And Ukraine's majority is radicalized enough to be a threat.

And you will never change the cold hard fact that a national hero in one country may be hated in another.

The man responsible for many deaths of innocent people, women and children, can't be a hero, maybe only in Ukraine or some other savage country. Blood on hands is blood on hands - that's the cold hard fact.
jon357 70 | 12,793    
12 Jul 2017  #25

That is inhabited by the people who chose their government

Very few people truly choose their government

Since the thread title mentions ' Młodzież Wszechpolska, perhaps, @Dudar, you can tell us what they've done to promote positive reconciliation and forgiveness in this matter, and how they're working to promote good relations and friendship between the two countries.
dudar - | 25    
12 Jul 2017  #26

Very few people truly choose their government

And Ukraine is the best example. They chose the government before the Euromaidan and when they were fed up with it, they organized the revolt and replaced the elected government with those whom they supported and nationalists were among leading powers there and they are still there.

you can tell us what they've done to promote positive reconciliation and forgiveness in this matter

I'm not aligned with Młodzież Wszechpolska but I think the Catholic spirit they promote may be a key to bring closer Poland and Ukraine and help Ukraine to integrate in Europe. And in the neighboring thread about Poland and Ukrainian migrants I recognized a letter I saw before, https://polishforums.com/news/poland-accepted-million-ukrainian-81149/2/#msg1601931, and I think the attempts to make Ukraine a Catholic country are already made and that's good for many reasons.

Ukraine, being mostly orthodox country, represents a big danger to Europe and Poland because we are completely different and Ukraine can't live and exist according to our mentality and values no matter what Ukrainians or their government says. Their only goal is to be accepted in Europe at any cost. The key word is accepted, not integrated. It means they will spread in Europe promoting their faith, their way of life and for Europe, which is too tolerant, it means extinction because Ukraine and Muslim migrants will replace Catholics.

Ukraine is too proud to admit its crimes against Poles and that's also can be described by their orthodox faith. Catholics can forgive and Ukraine is not about that. They say we need a dialog and that's possible only when they officially apologize and admit their crimes, but we know they won't ever do that until they accept Catholicism.
jon357 70 | 12,793    
12 Jul 2017  #27

nationalists were among

Unfortunately there are nationalists in Poland too. People vote on so many criteria, and most Ukrainian citizens didn't vote for nationalist extremists.

I'm not aligned with Młodzież Wszechpolska

Very good; it is a toxic thing.

You have however tried to praise them without answering the very simple question, namely, what they've done to promote positive reconciliation and forgiveness in this matter, and how they're working to promote good relations and friendship between the two countries.
dolnoslask 2 | 1,173    
12 Jul 2017  #28

Unfortunately there are nationalists in Poland too

Yep that me. and the majority of others here if you didnt notice.

Nationalism is a multidimensional social construction reflected in the communal identification with one's nation. It is a political ideology oriented towards gaining and maintaining self-governance, or full sovereignty, over a territory of historical significance to the group. Source Wikipedia.

We don't need foreigners to come to Poland and tell us to change over a thousand years of history, go back to yor libtard homelands if you don't like our nationalistic pride in our country.

Ukrainians given their sins during WWII , are far more valuable here than any west European migrant, Bring on Brexit so that at least one portal of marxist commie economic migrants can be closed off, after all we won't need anymore english teachers post brexit
jon357 70 | 12,793    
12 Jul 2017  #29

others here

The internet does tend to attract them.

yor libtard homeland

As I recall, we're from the same country.

Nationalism is a multidimensional social construction reflected in the communal identification with one's nation.

That whole paragraph is a cut and paste from Wikipedia.
dolnoslask 2 | 1,173    
12 Jul 2017  #30

As I recall, we're from the same country.

Yes but we are poles apart (pardon the pun) when it comes to political or cultural values, given my heritage I am more swayed to traditional Polish Catholic values, you appear to be more geared toward a left wing British labour party mindset. which is fine by the way., but it has no place here.

That whole paragraph is a cut and paste from Wikipedia.

Spot on which is why I quoted that the source was Wikipedia, My intention was to clarify what nationalism is and my support for it in Poland.

Is your idea of nationalism somewhat different to mine?




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