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Polexit? Almost half of the Poles believe that Poland would be better off outside of the EU


Bratwurst Boy 5 | 10,139
4 Jan 2020 #211
Maybe such kind of critics don't criticize the EU so much as rather Germany....and Germany's role in the EU. They are just germanophobic!

(As some Brexiters like to say: "We won 2 World Wars why are they ruling us now, dammit!!!")

I wonder if the EU would be more palatable to them if Germany would just leave?

But where would that leave Germany?
Torq 26 | 2,434
4 Jan 2020 #212
poor taste doing this on a forum dedicated to a country that has suffered so much under both Nazi Germany and the SU.

Hear, hear.

I wonder if the EU would be more palatable to them if Germany would leave?

Creating a hole right in the middle of Europe? I thought the whole point of the EU was to keep Germany at bay by giving them something better to do than conquering the world, like selling Volkswagens, inventing thousands of laws and regulations and trying to figure out Polish internal politics (that will keep you busy for a while, ha ha).
Bratwurst Boy 5 | 10,139
4 Jan 2020 #213
I thought the whole point of the EU was to keep Germany at bay

It was and still is!

Sometimes I fear these critics just don't think this through....
OP kondzior 10 | 961
4 Jan 2020 #214
The EUSSR is a political project which was hijacked fairly early on in its development by globalist neo-marxists, who turned it into a vehicle of creating the NWO, a melting-pot of different ethnicities with secular/atheistic aristocracies running everything from behind a fake democracy.

Hence the immensely-bloated EU bureaucracy, incomprehensible mess of institutions, and only one directly-elected major institution, which is the largely powerless and irrelevant EU parliament.

Also the EU's abject refusal to clearly identify its own nature. International organization? Confederacy? Federation in the making?

The real answer is: a Soviet-style marxist empire. USSR 2.0. The Soviet Union: Reloaded.
Miloslaw 6 | 2,904
4 Jan 2020 #215
@kondzior

100% agreed.
And most Europeans are so blind that they don't see it!
The UK saw through it though and voted get out.
Poland needs to wake up too and get out before it is too late.....
Bratwurst Boy 5 | 10,139
4 Jan 2020 #216
And most Europeans are so blind that they don't see it!

They hear it but they know it's crap!

There is no world conspiracy of a powerful circle (mostly Jews of course) do steer the poor unsuspecting sheep into their direction....there just isn't!

You can fight against globalism's most unregulated features as you want and it would be good fight...but to fight globalism is like fighting the Internet, industrial revolution..or the printing machine....or the car...or the electricity...or even earlier the wheel.

It's the next step in our technological development! Alone it's possibilities is changing the world we are living in...it enables people and goods and ideas to wander in a till now unknown scale.

And during all aforementioned ages and developments there had been those who where scared and wished the "new stuff" away and the old times back...to no avail.

People will mix, borders will become less important, national states will grow into bigger unions...but that is a process we only see the beginning...our children and grand children will see it fully come to pass, but for them it will be a reality...nothing to be scared about. They don't know any differently anymore...

To say people are blind to that is wrong, most just come to different conclusions!

To make it all "go away" can only mean isolation, closed borders, only controlled contact with the outside world, censored internet etc....most people just don't want THAT (if they are given a choice)!

PS: Globalism is in no way neo-marxist (whatever that is)....it means foremost profit for those who seek lower labor costs and higher profits.

Also the EU's abject refusal to clearly identify its own nature. International organization? Confederacy? Federation in the making?

Because it's not "the EU" which decides about that, it's the members who struggle to clear that up because...*gulp*...there are many different opinions about that!

(Can you believe it! No allmighty mastermind behind all that!!!)

There are those who want a closer circle to develop into a federation...and there are those who don't want to....who would like to keep it as an economical club mainly.

I personally think those who want to cooperate more closely should do so and those who don't want to can stay out...and it seems that is the direction "the EU" will go in the end.

That's why the principle of unanimity was all but scrapped (after the Brexit referendum) only for those most important questions (like taking in new members and such). Now common projects can be worked on together by those who want to take part, whereas others can abstain.... In the long run it will lead to differently strong networks inside the Union.
mafketis 21 | 7,607
4 Jan 2020 #217
will lead to differently strong networks inside the Union.

I think of that as an improvement.

A multi-polar EU is a great improvement over an EU dominated by private German financial interests (which has been the de facto since around 2009 or so).
Torq 26 | 2,434
4 Jan 2020 #218
In the long run it will lead to differently strong networks inside the Union.

Which might not necessarily be a bad thing. The EU doesn't have to be like Borg - assimilating all its members into one similarily minded entity. We can have leftist (and with time increasingly muslim) Scandinavian block, central - more united - Germany/Netherlands/Belgium/France block; Italy, Spain, Croatia and Greece in a Mediterranean block, V4 + Baltics in a Central European block etc.

Such union, of allied blocks, closely cooperating, would most likely be stronger and more resistant to various crises than a Borg-like unity.
Miloslaw 6 | 2,904
4 Jan 2020 #219
.but to fight globalism is like fighting the Internet, industrial revolution..or the printing machine

Nah,I think you have it all back to front....The EU is regressive......looking at the old ways.... Big empires, big unions.....
All old hat.
What we need is smaller,independent nations that can turn quickly and instantly react to changing global circumstances.
A huge old dinosaur like The EU will debate for weeks and miss the window.
Glad to leave the sinking ship.....
Bratwurst Boy 5 | 10,139
4 Jan 2020 #220
Big empires

Big Empires had exactly ONE top dog, Milo! Big difference :)

Unions are the next step...the industry is only the beginning. Most big players play globally and are multi-national by now...that is the future.

You don't want to play that game? You will fall behind...that's the alternative!

The EU doesn't have to be like Borg

Agreed!

The "one blanket" approach worked well in the beginning, for a culturally close core....but with so many so different members it's not possible anymore...and it doesn't has to.

Thing is that from Poland come mixed messages...they WANT to belong to this "core" but would still rather prefer the economical club, that's why they are fighting the idea of an "EU of different speeds" as it is also sometimes called...that is a question which Poland needs to find a solution for in the coming years...

A huge old dinosaur

Heh:) In the age of globalism the EU is the most modern thing in Europe! :)

Nationalism and national states acting only alone by itself are the "huge old dinosaur" here...in the same way horses had been at the dawn of the automobile!

But they are known and trusted and you know how to handle your horse and that "new thing" is still so strange...and so loud...and stinks....and get's people killed! And why the heck would people need to go so fast from point a to point b? Nobody needs that! :)
Torq 26 | 2,434
4 Jan 2020 #221
There doesn't have to be a "core". Partner blocks (without naming any of them as being the core) would work much better. V4, for example, can be as strongly integrated as the Scandinavian block (because of shared cultural values), and we don't need to consider which block is less or more "core".
Miloslaw 6 | 2,904
4 Jan 2020 #222
Nationalism and national states acting only alone by itself are the "huge old dinosaur" here

We will know the answer 10 years from now when Berlin and Paris are begging London to save them...... History repeats.....
Dougpol1 33 | 3,409
4 Jan 2020 #223
It's very simple

You live in Gdansk right? It took 70 years to regenerate Granary island in the old Town, through lack of money, but you think that Poland has money for nuclear capability. She doesn't even have the finances or will to build ONE lone nuclear power station.

I made a mistake. You are not funny. You just making a bad joke out of a very serious matter and have lost this debate. Which is that if we ever listened to nut jobs like you and Poland left the European union then Russia would set about squeezing the country in every which way.
Bratwurst Boy 5 | 10,139
4 Jan 2020 #224
There doesn't have to be a "core".

Maybe...the naming could be handled differently. But analysts expect the future...not-core....to consist of mainly the same cluster of countries which made up the founders of the EU. With some assorted plus who are able and most important willing to cross-link themselves into a federation (which will probably named differently too).

We will know the answer 10 years from now when Berlin and Paris are begging London to save them

From what?

Maybe the EU is more a continental thing...it was founded without London after all....

(But I expect totally the EU federation football team to beat the english team!!! :) After all wie would have the best Spaniards, Portugese, Dutch, French or German players and trainers!!!
Torq 26 | 2,434
4 Jan 2020 #225
@Dougpol1

What nonsense. Poland's military budget is higher than Pakistan's (a nuclear power), and it will increase this and next year, so we are certainly able to afford nuclear weapons.

The question of energy sources is an entirely different matter, as is municipal renovation funds in Gdansk :)

And where did you get the idea that I want Poland to leave the EU?
Bratwurst Boy 5 | 10,139
4 Jan 2020 #226
so we are certainly able to afford nuclear weapons.

But how about the political price? It's worse than building an nuclear reactor directly at your border. Because if something goes wrong your neighbour is paying the price...so he will be pissed!

In the EU Poland will get alot pissed off neighbours...and the French won't like that at all..
mafketis 21 | 7,607
4 Jan 2020 #227
.the industry is only the beginning. Most big players play globally and are multi-national by now

By welfare state! Hello Brazilian social model of small elite, no middle class and large, disposable underclass!

(that's what globalism means, it's not a benign concept by any stretch of the imagination).

How much of the German social safety net are you willing to sacrifice for 'global competitiveness'?
Torq 26 | 2,434
4 Jan 2020 #228
Why is it worse? When was a country with nuclear weapons invaded? Never? Well, then it would increase the safety of Poland (as I explained before) as well as her neighbours.

Why would the French oppose it?
Bratwurst Boy 5 | 10,139
4 Jan 2020 #229
By welfare state!

Quite the contrary. I think the most unregulated phase of globalism is nearing it's end...but then I can only speak from a german point of view where right now bundles of new social initiatives are planned, decided and agreed upon.

But again, that is not an EU thing...all member states make still their own social policies.

There is some stuff nonetheless:

eurofound.europa.eu/topic/social-policies
mafketis 21 | 7,607
4 Jan 2020 #230
every member states makes it's own social policies.

So those doomed to eternal austerity..... just won't have welfare (and will continue make sure their young ambitious youth end up in..... Germany?)

This is not a sustainable model....

Three countries out of 25 with social safety nets is not workable.
Bratwurst Boy 5 | 10,139
4 Jan 2020 #231
Why would the French oppose it?

Because they are quite proud of being part of the few in that "nukes-club"...as they are of having a steady seat in the UN or being a victor of WWII....

What is Poland going to tell them when they say you don't need any nukes because their nukes work as a deterrent very well?
delphiandomine 83 | 17,789
4 Jan 2020 #232
V4, for example, can be as strongly integrated as the Scandinavian block (because of shared cultural values)

I don't think it's possible. The V4 don't really have the shared history that the Scandinavian countries had, nor do they have the same issue with historical grievances that the V4 have with each other. For instance, the Czechs don't trust the Poles because of 1938/1968, the Slovaks regard the Hungarians as having major issues with the Treaty of Trianon, the Slovaks themselves are much more orientated towards Austria than Poland/Hungary, the Hungarians are busy doing dodgy deals with Russia, etc etc.

One thing that I find remarkable about the V4 is just how poor their cross-border relations are on a local level. There's almost no substantial cooperation between municipalities such as Kudowa-Zdrój and Nachod, and even public transport between the two is pretty dire. Yet look at Zgorzelec/Gorlitz, where they cooperate in a genuinely meaningful way.

From my own experience, it's *much* easier to create partnerships with Germans than it is with anyone in the V4. For that reason, I'd much rather see Poland integrate strongly with Germany rather than wasting time on smaller countries ruled by petty grudges and historical vendettas.

For me, what offered some real promise was the Weimar Triangle, and it's a great pity that PiS alienated the other two to such an extent that it's more or less dead.
Torq 26 | 2,434
4 Jan 2020 #233
@Bratwurst Boy

Poland is going to tell them to stop talking nonsense. We will also tell them that our safety is more important than their pride.

Plus, we might mention the fork (as a bonus).
Bratwurst Boy 5 | 10,139
4 Jan 2020 #234
So those doomed to eternal austerity

Again, that is not something the EU can change...it isn't a federation as of yet, and won't be for awhile. If you mean the EURO membership, that is another thing altogether and of course that needs different rules.

And btw. there is no "doomed to eternal austerity"...there is just bad economy and bad monetary decisions...

Poland is going to tell them to stop talking nonsense.

Why? Been invaded recently? ;)

Plus, we might mention the fork (as a bonus)

I want to have a front row seat for that discussion (+ popcorn)... :)
Ironside 49 | 10,010
5 Jan 2020 #235
hreats to our culture or identity are mainly imaginary.

LGBT and processive ideology is very much real not imaginary. You in your sh..thole has not idea how much of that nonsense is present in Warsaw or Poznan.

It is supported and financed heavily from abroad. One it end up in schools and become pert of gov policies children will be brainwashed. It can happen tomorrow.

build a Polish nuclear power plant.

Poland has a nuclear plant since late 50'. Mainly for a research purposes. Try to keep up.

The lunatics have taken over the asylum.

Childlike adults should not call people names.

even people like Gandhi

hey haven't you heard? Gandhi was racist. Do keep up with your own ideological base.

The EU is the greatest political project of peace and prosperity ever undertaken.

You are forgetting about Kommunismus - sorry but it always make me laugh, German words for communisms and socialisms.
Dougpol1 33 | 3,409
5 Jan 2020 #236
Poland's military budget is higher than Pakistan's

Yes, but one is a military dictactorship infacto, and the other is limited by constraints of civility. The Gdansk comparison was only meant to show that Polish authorities generally do as Dilbert suggests when it comes to city redevelopment and infrastructure - "Avoid criticism and do nothing"

You would know Torq that there are many people in Gdansk who think that the new tunnel is a waste of public funding - there will always be those who dig their heels in at progress - which is why Poland hasn't built it's nuclear power station yet. Ergo, they could only obtain nuclear weaponry in a dictatorship, because in a democracy, millions of Poles, and me, would object - as would the 27 states - on the premise that it would be a vast waste of resources (as millions of Pakistani children would tell you)

Apologies for the nutjob remark - I wasn't paying attention and I thought for a second you were in the Ironside "I'm alright Jack" camp:)

Poland has a nuclear plant since late 50'. Mainly for a research purposes. Try to keep up.

Thanks Iron. Zarnowiec is officially abandoned. I visited the sight, just up the road from me, and it's despoiled the whole area. The secret to nuclear power is in the word "commissioned" - as in actually producing power. I had a pretty devastating flat hit forehand in my tennis game, but I can't actually use it anymore. It's decommissioned. Pretty useless to brag about it then, wouldn't you say?
Ironside 49 | 10,010
5 Jan 2020 #237
Zarnowiec is officially abandoned.

Who is talking about Zarnowiec?
Dougpol1 33 | 3,409
5 Jan 2020 #238
So where's the Polish nuclear power station then? Are you referring to the joint project with Lithuania?
Torq 26 | 2,434
5 Jan 2020 #239
@Delph: I don't agree with you on the V4 issue (might PM you later on this, not to drag the thread off-topic too much :)).

in your sh..thole

Hey! Tri-city aglomeration has popualtion of over 1.2 million! :)

pl.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aglomeracja_tr%C3%B3jmiejska

@Dougpol

France is a democratic country (more or less), and they have nuclear weapons, despite the fact that their geostrategical position isn't as difficult as ours. Maybe I exaggerated the size of hypothetical Polish Nuclear Forces, but I still think it would increase Poland's safety.

Apologies for the nutjob remark

No problem. It's an internet forum, not an aunt's tea party. ;)
BPOisslavery
5 Jan 2020 #240
Poland should create/attract better quality jobs, not just the dreaded BPO/call center/outsourcing ones. More jobs in real IT, graphic design, architecture.

Mark my words, but the BPO/call center sector is a balloon, the moment a cheaper destination becomes available, they're gonna move there.

Pfizer, Sitel, Microsoft, Accenture, IBM, etc. large corporations care only about profit, especially their BPO/customer service branches.

If you know several languages and have a college degree, you're too good to work as a call center/BPO slave in a huge open layout office with 100s of people (looking like cattle in a huge farm)! Only high school dropouts work jobs like these in the West!


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