Modern F-35 bought by Poland. Good decision?

@johnny reb
Apple is a Chinese company. There is nothing american on it. Beside that, its vaporware. Stock value is not based on real value. Thats the simple fact.

As for what our leaders See, they treat American Ambassador Like crap, visit US governors and dismiss Trump. You may Like to suck their dick, we dont.

Sending war ships into the gulf helps us design new tech products how exactly?

Defending Germany is in the US interest, so you can relax.
BTW, how do you get all that oil delivered to Germany?

@Rich Mazur

We have no Border in the persian gulf. Germany is not defended in persian gulf.

How we get that oil delivered to Germany?

Through Pipelines from Russia, Norway and Azerbaijan. Germany gets little to no oil from the region.

Beside that we have excellent relations with Iran. We see Saudi Arabia as the problem, not Iran.

If that's the case, you don't need NATO. Send an email to the DC and help the US army pack. I am glad we agree.

I've noticed that. I suppose this is the attitude BB was warning about when the AfD began its emergence.


5 Years ago, I might have nodded my head in agreement. It seemed like the US had lost its sense of self and confidence. That we indeed were in a period of managed decline. But, come to find out, the majority of Americans still have a brightly burning fire in the belly and self-confidence. In three short years we have realigned ourselves and are ascending economically, militarily, and globally. Some argue we are stronger than we have ever been--and they just might be right.

@Rich Mazur

NATO is not in persian gulf.

Obviously you dont know article 5 and 6

Glad i could teach you something

Article 5

Article 6 1
For the purpose of Article 5, an armed attack on one or more of the Parties is deemed to include an armed attack:

And all those American cars that you import from America ?

@johnny reb

Germany Imports almost no Cars from america.

I appreciate that useless lecture. So, again, why do you Germans need NATO?

The only thing you taught me is what a idiot you are.


Just for the record let me teach you something.
Apple Inc. is an American multinational technology company headquartered in Cupertino, California. ;-)
Class dismissed.

That's an interesting fantasy. America is in decline, as witnessed by the fact that they betrayed their Kurdish allies in such a disgusting way.

Not yet. Before it's really over, I would like to know why he decided to insult Trump. By best guess is that Trump did something really good for the US that pis*ed off Germans. I hope he, Trump, will continue doing just that in his second term.


Are you serious? Kurdish allies? We don't have allies! Even in Europe. Just the parasites the American taxpayers support in so many ways.
Kurdish "allies" were not defending the US. We owe them and everybody else nothing. Poland included.

I remember Soviets kept mentioning something like that...wasn't it in the 50's? :-P

America doesn't decline more or less than any other Western country eaten by a cancer of neo-marxism. At least they've found a temporary relief during Trump's presidency

I dread to think that Trump was just a bump...on the way to the globalist hell.

@Rich Mazur

We dont need NATO. We have no enemies around us.

We could even go to 0 % defense spending. Anyone who wants attack us has to cross NATO anyways. Thats the benefits of being in the core.

But thats not how we are. So because of that we spend 1.3% of GDP on defense. Which in absolute numbers is magnitudes bigger than polands spending



We know though that NATO is dieing and already work around it.

@johnny reb

No, Apple is an chinese company. Almost all its assets are located in China, They produce nothing in USA, pay no taxes in USA. They are worthless and produce only ****.

@Rich Mazur

I dont insult Trump. He is just an idiot, a very stupid man and without class or style. Trump doesnt **** Germany off. We mostly ignore him.

He appears like slime and in Germany he is a big problem for the far right.

AfD again and again has to distance itself from that idiot. We need to assure germans, that our far right is nothing like this dumb fat blob.

The entire cretin is like a persiflage. Like a caricature.

On a sidenote though, for german business trump is good.

Trump basicly smashs Boeing into the ground. Because his trade wars China and Russia bought not a single Boeing, cancel orders and switch to our Airbus.

Slapped tariff's on them because of the outlandish trade deficits with Germany. Boo Hoo, long over due.


Pee on my leg and tell me it's raining........
Motor vehicles are the United States' third leading export.
Germany is the third biggest market for those automobiles which is in the Billions.
Problem is that America was importing three times as many cars from Germany as we were exporting to them so Teflon Trump said "ENOUGH !"
Mrs. Merkel wasn't happy to have that gravy train cut off with those tariffs slapped on Germany after so many years of such a huge trade imbalance.

The exports to Poland of American cars has increased dramatically.


Compared to who ? Europe ? China ? Russia ? Hahahahahaha

@johnny reb

wrong again. Germany imports nearly no american cars, there is no market for that trash here.

American cars have a market share of 1.67% in Germany.

Beside that, there are no tariffs on Germany, Trump is a coward. Remember he pulled his threat back last year when we threatened to put tariffs of same hight on products specific produced in republican states.

We are smarter, Trump threatened german big corporations. We countered by targeting your weakest economic members. Farmers and small business. Even tariffs on orange juice, Harley Davidson and so on.

As for the trade deficit it grew even larger under Trump


Trump fears that we do what we promised, to crush american farmers and small business.

The thing is, France would want that very much.

Trump is just talk and no walk. A pathetic clown.

So lets jump back on F.35, trump wanted Germany to buy it so badly. We let them send us the data and tehn dismissed this ****.

Then even invited two to Berlin just to use them to test our new radar.

P.s. I visited USA last year. California and Arizona. You live in a ********.

You mean since Trump slapped the tariffs on your exports to America of what 30% ?
Tit for Tat......to level the playing field.

...and, along with that graph in 167, the very definition of a parasite.

But I agree with you that being a parasite is less expensive and very smart.

Back to why you need NATO - with or without the US. Any thoughts on that without insults?

Stick to the subject of the thread please

@johnny reb
There are no tariffs on german cars Johnny. Trump never fullfilled that.

He threatened it several times but pulled back.

Tariffs wont change that. American cars are not popular. In the top 12 car brands in Germany only one is american...Ford on place 9

American cars dont give what we want.

Its a cultural thing. Japanese cars are popular here. We want high acceleration, much tech and low gas consumption.

Tariffs wont change that, as long you dont produce what we want.

Why you think WalMart went bancrupt in Germany within 3 years`? The american way is not popular here.

You need to produce something Germans want, as long you cant do that, you end like WalMart, burning several billion € on German market and go down.

Why you think Trump was so hellbend that we buy F-35? He knows very well, we wont buy the trash you offer and with a big military spending contract he could easily

melt the deficit without depending on german consumer market. The thing is, F-35 is not what we want. Its to slow and not powerful enough. We want a twin engine jet that can hold Mach 1.9 for prolonged time span.

Make an offer.

@Rich Mazur
I dont think we need NATO. Its a fossil of cold war era and way over its time. Its also a bit folklore. Many here think it will die within next years anyways.

Couldn't agree more.


Poland is NATO. What Poland has reflects directly on NATO and its military strength.
In #10, pawian wrote: I still can't forget the September campaign 1939. No red comments there.
In fact, his post had zero connection with the purchase of F-35's while mine about NATO is current and relevant.

@AntV

The F-35 was offered to Germany for just 80 million per unit, yet we declined and chose a plane that costs us 150 million per unit.

How lethal can a plane be when we dont even want it for cheap?

Maybe the problem isn't the plane, but those who make the decisions on what to buy. It may have something to do with politics. Or, with what the German military wants to accomplish operationally with the planes it buys.

Personally, I think it has more to do with politics, but I really don't know since I'm not privy to the conversations being had between the German decision-makers. All I know is that the aerospace professionals I'm close to have become impressed with the new generation of F-35.

Brilliant. The rest of my comment in RANDOM...

@AntV

We want it to reach Mach 1.9 and be able to hold it

F-35 can only reach 1.6 and just for 40 seconds befor its vertical stabilizer is in danger to structural failure.

Lockheed Martin offered a killer price of 80 million per unit and also offered technology transfer and construction in Germany, even then that did not make up for the aircrafts lack in speed and that it doesnt meet our criteria and demands.

Later in negotiations you could see that they mocked Lockheed Martin and published their info and data in german magazines, making fun about its helmet ect, which costs as much as 30 VW golf and doesnt work properly. The entire aircraft was shown like a joke in our media.

They call it "Trump jet" and say it has 870 mistakes and its cannon cant shot straight.

The big finale was when Germany said we might have interest and two F.35 came to Berlin just to be used as traget practice for our new radar.

So i guess its a mix of things. The aircraft on oen side cant fullfill what we want and on other side there are political games behind.

What's reported in the media and what is actual fact aren't necessarily the same thing. Like I said, I believe it has more to do with politics than anything else--our countries don't see eye-to-eye on many things. Never underestimate the pettiness of political actors.

The F-35 is not perfect--nothing is--but contemporary air warfare isn't like Tom Cruise in Top Gun. It's been trending towards out-of-view striking for decades, which makes the need to be the fastest to be the best an outdated mode of thinking. It's more about stealth, range, and payload--mach 1.6 is plenty fast for what this plane is meant to do operationally...and it's meant to be a highly lethal plane. Apparently, many of the pilots who fly it think it's a fantastic warplane.

And, that German radar incident wasn't a blind test. It knew the F-35 was in the area. For it to be a conclusive test, it would have to be blind so it could determine if the signals were from a plane or not. That didn't happen, so I wouldn't put much stock in it.

@AntV

We want an aircraft that can quickly reach any point of our airspace. Its supposed to be an interceptor and the F 35 simply is too slow for that.

Other factor is, that Germany and USA are not really allied anymore. No german leader would give Trump the biggest defense deal in the world, which the purchase of 85 F 35 would be.

As for the radar, it waw a first test.

You're making it sound like it, indeed, was a political decision.

@AntV

Partly sure but its a combination. The techmological shortcomings play a mayor role as well.

Germany ended up buying Typhoons?