Abortion still under control in Poland

alternatives? What are you talking about, man?


you said, it's wrong too, didn't you, so


then again, you also said, you're pro choice so....hmm (LOL)

Foreigner4,Again,I'm just curios as to why it's important what people do;to be able to feel that something is wrong.And even if someone were a hypocrite;if he/she were to tell you that smoking is harmful to your health;does it change the fact that cigarette smoking is harmful to your health.

Well, on one end of your "abortion spectrum" you seem to be characterizing anyone who would seek an abortion as some immoral lowlife who only wants to pursue a life of sin. I am curious if you really believe that to be true or if there's more to your thought process than that.


p3undone asked me what I thought of it within the last couple pages and I twice answered "I don't know." If the meaning of these words escapes you, it would be of great irony but nonetheless, that, is my official F4 response.

Now, seeing as you quoted the following, it's clear you've also read it:


So why don't you try answering it if it interests you so much? Perhaps the question is too difficult and you simply don't know how to answer it. No shame in that man, if you don't know, you don't know.


I feel the smoking comparison is not a fair comparison. After all, we are not debating the effects of abortion on a woman's health, or the unborn's health, are we? Maybe you're looking at this comparison differently but I see it as a flawed comparison at the moment.

I don't know what you were trying to ask with the first part of your response so I cannot respond to that.

Foreigner4,True,but you get the essential gist.As for the first part,you keep asking people what are people doing to stop it if they feel it is wrong.my point is that no matter what they are doing if it's wrong then its wrong.That's all I'm saying

forget it man, don't even go there. I haven't mentioned religion with one word in this thread and my opinion about abortion has absolutely nothing to do with it.


OK, then let's just stick to it. No need to continue to participate in this thread then, right?


My opinion about it was/is firm and I don't beat around the bush, my friend. I explained it many times in this thread how and why I feel about abortion the way I do and there's really nothing more to add to it.

No, I don't, otherwise I'd have said so.


No, I don't, well not completely anymore. I do keep asking how wrong people think it is and based on that I'm curious as to what people are willing to do or not do.

Let's say you saw you're neighbor trying to hang a door and you knew they were doing it the wrong way, would you tell them or do nothing?

If you saw someone smoking while pregnant, would you say nothing or speak up?
I'm curious as to how "connected" people feel to society, so to speak. and of course I'm also curious as to "how" wrong other people see it.

For instance, if I saw someone doing something really dangerous, like "holy sh*t-balls you're not really going to use that equipment here and now" kind of dangerous around a pregnant woman, maybe I'd say, "uhhhh Lady, you really shouldn't be here."

If she persisted in being there and I knew her presence would kill her unborn child, I don't know what I would do. If people said "hey buddy it's none of your business?" then I really don't know what I'd do.

Do you know what you'd do in either scenario?

If you saw a little kid near some dangerous equipment (auger, plasma cutter, welder, grinders without guards, wood chipper- you get the idea) would you quickly intercept the little person's path to danger or stand by idle and observe?


If you can actually come up with a quantifiable reason why something is wrong then fine, I'm interested in where that might go.
People say they have standards and morals but go on doing a lot of "wrong" things every day and often don't care enough to change or don't care enough to know what they're doing is "wrong" even by their standards. If someone wants to say it's immoral then there's a good chance they're being more of a hypocrite than they (can?) imagine.

And then of course then that gets me asking "how immoral" but as of yet you're the only person to have answered that aspect of my questions.

F'n hell that was way longer than I wanted it to be. I should keep a 75 word cap on these.


Okay then, let's remove the word "sin" and use the words you really used to describe someone who seeks to get an abortion:


Is that the only type of person you envision or is there more to your thought process than that?


and the reason you do nothing about it is? or you do something to prevent it and you're just being humble?

do I really have to explain it to you, F4?
What can a single person do about it, huh? I/we can only vote for politicians who are opposing abortion (out of convenience) and voice my/our opinion/s anywhere I/we can (e.g. PF).

Over and out. This thread is already way too long and we're not getting anywhere with it anyway.

Once again,I would like to thank everyone for keeping this a civil conversation.I'm amazed that this thread hasn't had to be closed and cleaned several thousand times:);considering the topic matter.

I agree, and I think that is what people are most concerned about here. Poland is a Catholic country, ostensibly has a morality largely dictated by the Church, and this morality has been and will be translated into legislation. If you want to change that, change the religion of the country (good luck ; ).


Yes. That is the other issue. Someone else's life as well as the mother's is at risk here.

That the RCC comes down on the side of protecting that life doesn't seem a bad attitude of theirs, I have to say.
There should, of course, be a massive campaign of support for pregnant mothers in difficult situations, and also of trying to prevent unwanted pregnancies in the first place.


Absolutely agree, and this is the BIG POINT:

ABORTION = INCOME FOR SOMEONE.
In a 'liberal' world, abortion is 'good', and that also means that in the capitalist world that often comes with liberalism, someone sees a business opportunity.

So, what do you want?

1. A religious country where the unborn child is protected, and mothers have to do as they're told, even though that means some hardship for the mother in some cases, although it usually turns out ok because nobody ever regrets having a child in the end,

OR

2. A capitalist, liberal country where there is total freedom to do what you like with the unborn child, with the added benefit of creating a great business opportunity for someone who can use the liberal banner to say that the 'service' they offer is a vital human right of the innocent female?

What you actually have is a religious country shot through with capitalism and liberalism. Tricky.

Back to the dark ages? NEVER


What about a compromise? What about a country where church does not dictate what to do, right of a child is still protected IF is does not create danger to women's life?

In fact, I think the current law works just fine, it just has to be followed correctly and provisions within the law need to be made for mothers that don't want to keep the baby for "economic" reasons.

By provision I mean shelters where they can in dorms stay until they give birth, are fed well enough and after birth they can decide if they keep the baby or give it up. Let's say they can leave baby in the shelter up to 3 months and if they don't come back after that, their maternal rights are taken by default. This still does not solve the issue of "inconvenient" pregnancy, but addressed the major concern. There should also be a surrogacy law, allowing people to adopt baby while a woman is pregnant. I even think this does not need to be free (I know that's controversial) - but any money exchanged has to be done after the baby is born and full adoption takes place.

The reason why many women decide to have abortion is fear for the future. If you remove that, and to certain extent address inconvenience aspect, number of abortions should decrease.

But you can't simply create law that does not allow abortion, this will simply push the problem to the black market to deal with (as it is now).

This basically states my opinion on the subject of the Abortions:

youtube.com/watch?v=7y2KsU_dhwI

cheers

Comparing Nazis killing Jews to abortion seems to be the oldest trick in the manipulation book. Godwin's law in full effect.


Wiki

I jumped around the video a bit, until I run into a piece when he was telling some kid he'll go to hell if he doesn't go home and read the bible.

I bet he didn't save any outtakes when people told him to go fck himself, did he?

Ray Comfort (The guy who produced this video), is a religious fruitcake, Young Earth Creationist, and a moron and has been debunked many times as evidenced by the debate between him and thunderfoot. He's an ill-educated nut. Ad-hominem? You bet! Doesn't make him any less of a repulsive individual though... no one takes him seriously.

Ladies and gentlemen I give you bananaman:

youtube.com/embed/YfucpGCm5hY

More Ray Comfort:

Here they talk about morality. There's a bit about abortion in here. This video is far better than the last one.

youtu.be/1Bn62F5pvp0

As to modern society, please note that Polish women don't have the right to abortion and those who can afford go abroad or pay private doctors and those who can't afford, just do it themselves (for instance with Domestos, commonly used here) with the dangers that we can expect. Pure hypocrisy!

@Rozu: it's like some time ago, Levi claimed that a Polish woman was beheaded by her muslim husband ;). Someone asked him to send link and of course he could not. He just vomits his hatred of muslims in PF telling lies. He does not know GB or France so all he does is copying-pasting bs from fascists sites. Believe, should churches be burnt by muslims, it would for sure make the headlines.

Yes, it's common that women here abort themselves with for instance Domestos (check on the net and you'll find a lot of stories) with all the risks that it implies. When they have to go to hospital because of problems, doctors have to report them to the police and they face jail. Yes, a very "modern" society. Officially in case of rape, they can (in theory) have abortions but when using minimum common sense, it is obviously very difficult to prove rape so most women don't even report rapes. No, when women are treated this way, this is not a "modern" society. I remind you all of the Alicja Tysiac's case a few years but things have not improved in Poland. In the Czech Republic, close to the border with Poland, there are a lot of private abortion clinics making a fortune out of those poor Polish girls who just go there for the day in order to have abortion.

Furthermore, as per UE's figures, Polish women are the least using contraceptives. Furthermore, how many doctors refuse to prescribe the pill, how many pharmacists refuse to sell it? In this aspect, Poland is no more liberal than ... Iran or Saudi Arabia...

@Rozu: yes, since most Polish women don't use contraceptives (like I said, lowest % in EU) and abortion is not possible (unless paying a private doctor who does it "Under the table"), the girl is scarred to have sexual Relationship -

Between this and what Gosc said that pretty much covers it.
She is probably just nervous - uncertain of what comes next. If you care about her then give her time to get over her uncertainties. Otherwise walk away and leave her in peace. She clearly has some complexes to deal with.

Someone I know had a very similar situation with an Arab woman. Feels like deja vu to read about it here.

In Poland, if a woman (here, a girl) gets pregnant and the guy runs away, it's a huge problem for her so best not to fool around too much ;)

Ireland is the same gosc., with the Monday morning flight from Dublin to London also known as 'the abortion express'.
well that is OK if you have the money.
A horrible situation for women, no wonder so many of them do not want to have sex with random foreigners.

yes and it's pitiful. Besides Poland and Ireland, there is also Malta. Women are poor in such countries.

I'm sure that you remember the hundreds of baby corpses found by the police last year in some convents in Ireland .... Those should apply their "morals" to themselves. Sickening!

yes there are a lot of dark secrets there, probably in the UK too.
Did you ever hear about the 'Magdalen Laundries'?
The last one closed in the mid 90s.
'Poor' women indeed.

Yes, I watched it. Purely disguting! and extremists such as Levi and consorts want to show their "morals". Shame on them!

Gosc,you are the other side of Levi.
Domestos COMMONLY used? Women going to jail for trying to get an abortion? Can't remember a single case in at least 15 years. Plus the doctors don't wait till the rape is proven in court. If rape was reported and it turns out the girl is pregnant she can abort.Some doctors may be weird about prescribing contraception pill but it's far from being as common as you say.

As much as I wish there was better access/things were legally changed you are talking bollocks and taking things out of proportion

I saw the Magdalen laundries film, and found it very sad. While I respect the right of everyone to follow their religion, I do not agree with one person imposing their beliefs on another. So if a woman wants to have an abortion, that is her right, and nobody should prevent her. Likewise, if she does not want to do so, nobody should force her. Her body, her rights.

Foaming-at-the-mouth feminists clamouring for pro-choice, women's rights, abortion rights, blah-blah-blah... Did anyone ever consider a child's right to be born, see a butterfly, pet a kitten, play in a sand pit... The world is not just about selfish tarty females!

@Polonius3, a foetus exists only because it is inside a woman. If that woman doesn't want to be a mother, surely she has that right. A woman is a human being with rights and free will; a foetus is a potential human being, with neither.

@Shaman: it is not because you don't know of something that it does not exist.

I am a female and although not a militant, I am very close to feminist and pro-abortion people in Poland and I know a lot, contrary to you. Yes, some women abort themselves (relying of some stuff such as but not limited to Domestos) or get help from friends and obviously they take serious health risks. If they have to go to hospital, doctors (who understand of course right away) have to report the cases to the police and women may face jail (logical since a crime in Poland) and as to rape, only stupid men believe that it's easy to report rapes and that many women do not want to report rapes as not easy to prove and also they'll be questionned like criminals. Polish women with money get abortions from private doctors (easy to get names) in Poland or they go abroad. In the Czech Republic near the Polish border, there are a lot of private clinics making a lot of money from those poor Polish women. Once I met a taxi driver in Silesia used to drive Polish women to and from those Czech clinics and he said he had to cover his car seat with plastic because women's still bleeding (they go and back within the day). This is the reality still in the 21st century in some countries including Europe. Of course, men (or boys) like you don't know about the situation but don't want to know as they prefer to refuse reality. We don't live on Fantasy Island and refusing to see reality does not change it...

For those like Sharman who prefer to close their eyes, please check Alicja Tysiac's case some years ago who won in Strasbourg against the Polish State and also re that Dutch ship abortion clinic that came to Polish coast a few years ago too to offer abortions to Polish women...

Refusing to look at reality is useless. Since abortion has always existed and shall always exist, I believe that it's better to have it done in a medical environment rather than on a kitchen table.

PS: Sharman: have you ever met a woman who had an abortion? I don't think so...

How quickly you assumed I'm a man. And how funny you are wrong.
I'm a women and I lived in Poland almost my whole life. I used contraception and I know few girls that aborted or wanted to abort their kid. And before you jump to conclusions again I'm all for relaxing abortion law. However you are talkig bollocks in quite few statements. Like the contraception pills and doctors- if your doctor is stupid then go to a different one. My doctor knowing I'm a student gave me pills for 7zl for 3 months. With abortion it's a different matter but before it goes to that you can try to avoid pregnancy.

Reporting rape is never easy. So get of your high horse and really listen to what I say. I only said that they don't wait for the court case to finish.

And women going to jail for using Domestos for abortion? For once they can say that they tried to kill themselves not the baby. That is not criminal. For all you say I still don't belive it's as common as you say.

@Sharman: obviously we don't meet the same kind of people in Poland. Where the he.. have I written women go to prison for using ... Domestos???? ;). I wrote that when women have to go to the hospital because or problems due to kitchen abortions, doctors have to report cases to the police and then women may face jail (normal, since abortion is considered a crime in Poland).

Don't worry for me, I don't have problems to get contraception but is it normal that some doctors refuse to prescribe contraception, is it normal that some pharmacists refuse to sell contraception? Is it normal that women with money pay private doctors to perform illegal abortions in Poland inspite of the law? Is it normal that women who cannot afford it, have to abort themselves using crazy things such as soap, Domestos and the like; knitting needles.... and risking their lives ? Is it normal that some Polish women need to go abroad to abort????? No, it is not normal and it only shows a hypocrit society. As a woman, you should favor abortion in a medical environment rather than on a kitchen table and illegally the way it is in the 21st century in some backwards countries.

You claim to have met some women who have aborted, which I doubt it otherwise you would show some empathy to them and if you have, I bet it was not in Poland but in safe medical environments in UK and the like ;)

Sorry, when women have not the right to abort, they are not free. In this aspect, Poland is just the same way most muslim countries are (abortion was made legal in Tunisia in 1956, right after their independence from France but since religion has come back in force, I doubt that Tunisian women have kept their right and therefore have now to do like their Polish sisters ;)).

Please hang around feminist and pro-abortion circles in Poland and you'll learn a lot of things that obviously you don't know.

@Sharman: according to recent EU's figures (I don't have them on hand), contraception is marginal in Poland since Polish women are using contraception the least (around 8% in comparison to 64% by French women,, top users in EU). So please don't pretend that contraception is "normal" in Poland (logical since catholic country).

It's available everywhere and there's a pretty low birth rate and plenty of one-child families. Since the rhythm method doesn't work (and in any case most people aren't so religious that they'd have any qualms about birth control) they must indeed be using contraception. Any low figure in stats is more likely to be down to people not wanting to discuss it.

I remember reading a figure from the late 90s, that 50,000 women and girls had hospital treatment due to self-administered abortions. I don't know how reliable that figure was. Easier now to pop over to the UK.

Worth mentioning that the page in local newspapers with the medical adverts has two types of ads for gynaecologists. One of the types always uses the phrase 'full range of services'. This is understood to discreetly include terminations.

@Jon: if you check statistics, you'll see that very few Polish women use the pill. Maybe Polish men use condoms alot ;). Anyway, it is not normal in a socalled "modern country" that some doctors refuse to prescribe contraception, that some pharmacies refuse to sell contraception and that women have the "choice" or either paying under the table for an illegal abortion in Poland (or go abroad) or to do it themselves with all the health risks... It is pure hypocrisy. Fortunately we can count on the fingers of only one hand countries in EU forbidding abortion (if I'm right, only Poland, Malta and Ireland). Yes, abortion is illegal but if the woman can pay, she can have it... ;);)

Since abortion has existed since the beginning of the world and shall always exist, best to make it legal so women shall abort in safe medical environments. No woman is forced to abord but each woman has the choice and contrary to what opponents think, it is never a pleasure for a woman to abort. Deciding to have an abortion is not like deciding to change one's hair color ;).

@Jon: I don't have figures for UK (or elsewhere) but for sure a lot of women aborting themselves end up at the hospital. Imagine what they introduce into their bodies!!! It sures leads to a lot of damages.... Well, I know, some hypocrits prefer to close their eyes and pretend they live on Fantasy Island.