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Immigration in Poland and being surrounded by a monoculture?


Harry
8 Jul 2013 #31
Interesting, so when most multi-cultural generations are also the ones who have fought fewest wars.
TheOther 6 | 3,692
8 Jul 2013 #32
That could be one possible interpretation. I believe that after two devastating world wars most European nations have simply learned their lesson: an armed conflict gets you nowhere.
delphiandomine 88 | 18,455
8 Jul 2013 #33
. I believe that after two devastating world wars most European nations have simply learned their lesson: an armed conflict gets you nowhere.

I'd like to believe that, but Yugoslavia showed us otherwise :(
Foreigner4 12 | 1,768
8 Jul 2013 #34
Netherlands, Switzerland, Canada, Britain, Singapore, Australia all do pretty well as does Malaysia ( most of the time).

Yeah Ziemovit mentioned the dual nature of multiculturalism in the Netherlands. Has the stability and progress of the Netherlands increased due to it? I don't know, it's possible.

Switzerland? Are you 100% sure about that?

Canada and Britain? Having lived in both countries I can safely say the more multi-ethnic the area, the less safe it is. The effects of multiculturalism in both those countries seems to have benefited society in some areas but weakened those societies in other ways. I'm not sure the benefit/cost ratio works out well for either case.

Singapore and Australia?
I know nothing about Singapore and have heard Australians give mixed reviews from glowing to scathing.

Only because the USA tends to treat ethnic groups as second class citizens, the problems there are as much about class as colour or ethnicity, people from ethnic groups are rarely allowed to rise to the top.

If I say that multi-ethnic communities and societies benefit the locals less and then you provide a mechanism/explanation (one I'm not sure I buy into) for why that is then you've just agreed with me.

New questions:
How many stable societies have been built on multiculturalism?
How many countries have become multicultural because of the stability that was already established?
TheOther 6 | 3,692
8 Jul 2013 #35
I'd like to believe that, but Yugoslavia showed us otherwise

That's why I wrote "most European nations"...
jon357 69 | 18,445
8 Jul 2013 #36
How many stable societies have been built on multiculturalism?

This is for the future to show us. Or for us to show the future. One thing we know for certain is that there have been some pretty dreadful monocultural countries.
Harry
8 Jul 2013 #37
Switzerland? Are you 100% sure about that?

I see you have never been to Switzerland.
Foreigner4 12 | 1,768
8 Jul 2013 #38
So Switzerland is a multi-cultural, multi-ethnic place and it's been that way for how long? How has this multi-cultural society that Switzerland is famous for helped to strengthen Swiss society?

I've only met a few Swiss people (Caucasian) and never been so let's hear what ya got.

This is for the future to show us. Or for us to show the future. One thing we know for certain is that there have been some pretty dreadful monocultural countries.

I agree with you. What doesn't bode well for the future is how multi-culti policies are currently shaped.
The debate seems just as much about allowing cheap labour markets as anything else. I find it telling as to who benefits most and least from those policies.

Another sign of foreboding I've seen in a few countries is that there are large groups of people who are not interested or aware of what is going on politically and can't even communicate in the same language as the laws are made. Maybe in the 2nd and 3rd generations it gets better, I'm assuming it does. But one must still admit, that is a sign the system needs some major improving.

I fear the current attitude to mass immigration is that it's seen as some kind of quick fix to long-term problems and therefore an incredibly short-sighted solution to inequality around the globe.

One poster on page one wrote that a people should teach incoming migrants their ways and encourage them to adapt. As long as that is true then I'm on board that ship, when the guests decide to not fit in then I'm sorry but it's not going to work out in the long run.
RevokeNice 15 | 1,859
8 Jul 2013 #39
Kaz is Asian. She is as European as I am rastafarian. Note how she bis up Asians as the answer to Europes ills. An Asian supremacist who lives in a white nation. lol
kaz200972 2 | 229
8 Jul 2013 #40
If I say that multi-ethnic communities and societies benefit the locals less and then you provide a mechanism/explanation (one I'm not sure I buy into) for why that is then you've just agreed with me.

I don't think the USA has created a truly stable multicultural society because of the rather unpleasant attitudes of the white ruling class but one thing is certain the USA would be nothing without it's ethnic minorities!

Switzerland? Are you 100% sure about that?

Switzerland has three main ethnic groups and manages exceptionally well!!

Yeah Ziemovit mentioned the dual nature of multiculturalism in the Netherlands. Has the stability and progress of the Netherlands increased due to it? I don't know, it's possible.

Economy has prospered with ethnic groups

How many stable societies have been built on multiculturalism?

Singapore certainly, India manages fairly well though has occasional bouts of aggro. China has always had different ethnic groups and manages to be relatively stable, the list is quite long. No country is perfect because human nature tends towards greed, if it wasn't fighting between ethnic groups it would be something else!!!
Foreigner4 12 | 1,768
8 Jul 2013 #41
Switzerland has three main ethnic groups and manages exceptionally well!!

Interesting. Of course I have known this for many years but never really considered Switzerland "multicultural" despite it being so. How diverse are these groups culturally I wonder. Do you know?

I don't think the USA has created a truly stable multicultural society because of the rather unpleasant attitudes of the white ruling class but one thing is certain the USA would be nothing without it's ethnic minorities!

That doesn't change anything; you've still agreed with me that multicultural policies in the US haven't worked. In terms of this conversation, I see that as a positive. We can at least identify which current model doesn't work. It would be a bit naive to think anything so long as it's multicultural/leftwing was going to work, don't you think?

Economy has prospered with ethnic groups

Can you explain this assertion?

Singapore certainly, India manages fairly well though has occasional bouts of aggro. China has always had different ethnic groups and manages to be relatively stable, the list is quite long. No country is perfect because human nature tends towards greed, if it wasn't fighting between ethnic groups it would be something else!!!

I find your examples interesting. I knew (except for Singapore) those places have ethnic diversity but seeing as I've never been it was always just something I assumed to x extent. So, how ethnically diverse would you say Chinese, Singapore and Indian societies are compared to the diversity seen in France, UK, Germany, USA, Canada?
kaz200972 2 | 229
8 Jul 2013 #42
Interesting. Of course I have known this for many years but never really considered Switzerland "multicultural" despite it being so. How diverse are these groups culturally I wonder. Do you know?

All white but quite diverse
.

That doesn't change anything; you've still agreed with me that multicultural policies in the US haven't worked.

Just because it's not worked well in the USA doesn't mean it can't work in other places, it could work in the USA if the system was a little more fair. That said, the USA has created a better multi cultural society than some places!!

So, how ethnically diverse would you say Chinese, Singapore and Indian societies are compared to the diversity seen in France, UK, Germany, USA, Canada?

Equally diverse, though not as obvious to westerners. The cultural and religious differences within China, Singapore and India are huge, if you know the area there are big differences in phenotypes as well.

Kaz is Asian. She is as European as I am rastafarian. Note how she bis up Asians as the answer to Europes ills. An Asian supremacist who lives in a white nation. lol

I am also British with as much right to be in Britain as anyone. Like many other Asians, Afro Caribbeans, Jews I contribute to the society, some times considerably more than the white inhabitants. Asians, Jews, Afro Caribbeans and the Irish played an integral part in building British society. You obviously do not understand what the term 'supremacist' means because if you did you wouldn't be using the term here!!

As for the Rastafarian bit, it's a pity you aren't a Rasta it would broaden your mind and perhaps afford you some education!!!
Lyzko
8 Jul 2013 #43
Europe, like Asia and Africa, has ALWAYS been ethnically diverse, a veritable hodgpodge of umpteen languages and cultures for nearly a millenium. Where though she differs radically from the United States is this "melting pot" idea that within the same society/culture, that hodgepodge lives practically on top of the other. While the broad American country is scarcely a diverse society, ONE America has almost never meant ONE language, ethnicity or even religion.

The above constitutes the key difference; Turks moving to the US means something fundamentally different from Turks moving to Germany, France, Czech Republic, Sweden or Poland. The latter are small, originally homogeneous societies connected by a continent, yet not linked by the same geography, ethnicity or belief. America continually absorbed myriad new peoples and races, something to which European countries, certainly Asian countries such as Korea or Japan are simply not used.
kondzior 12 | 1,242
9 Jul 2013 #44
kaz200972:Switzerland has three main ethnic groups and manages exceptionally well!!

Interesting. Of course I have known this for many years but never really considered Switzerland "multicultural" despite it being so. How diverse are these groups culturally I wonder. Do you know?

One must be positively insane to call a Switzerland multicultural. The place is extremely xenophobic, the Swiss make it perfectly clear that they do not want non-Swiss in their idyllic mountain towns (hell, the Swiss Germans hate Germans!). It's not a real multi-ethnic state either, due to them having an extremely long history of being Swiss citizens instead identifying as a part of their actual ethnic group.
Lyzko
9 Jul 2013 #45
Switzerland has three, actually four, official languages! I'd call that multilingual, if nothing else!
kondzior 12 | 1,242
9 Jul 2013 #46
German Swiss don't bother learning French and French Swiss don't bother learning German. Not sure how much of a multicultural success Siwtzerland really is.

Swiss mentality is basically just about "Dose foreigners aren't like us, let's stay wary".
RevokeNice 15 | 1,859
9 Jul 2013 #47
People from the UK are white. Have been since man first inhabited these isles, Kaz. You lot started rocking in from the fifties onward. A mere dot in history. If I decided to move to Kenya with my partner, gave birth to.a child there - would the child be Kenyan and African?

Of course not! But liberals riddled with white guilt will tell you guys that you are British as Churchill and as European as Sobieski.

Its actually hilarious. You want it to be true so much! Remember when you lied to me before and told me that you were white?

Lol
delphiandomine 88 | 18,455
9 Jul 2013 #48
German Swiss don't bother learning French and French Swiss don't bother learning German. Not sure how much of a multicultural success Siwtzerland really is.

Actually, that's not true in the slightest. Swiss Germans will understand French and vice versa - the general culture in Switzerland is that you use either French or German and others will understand. They may not speak fluently, but they will certainly understand - I had no problems using French in German speaking areas there.

One must be positively insane to call a Switzerland multicultural.

You've obviously never been to Switzerland if you don't know the difference between the areas. Trying to lump Switzerland in as 'one culture' is naive at best.

The place is extremely xenophobic

It really isn't. It might have tough rules surrounding obtaining citizenship, but that has a long history.

the Swiss make it perfectly clear that they do not want non-Swiss in their idyllic mountain towns (hell, the Swiss Germans hate Germans!).

Do they? I notice plenty of non-Swiss in those towns. Perhaps you should stop basing your opinion on SVP propoganda? As for Swiss Germans hating Germans - that's not true as well. There's far more animosity from Austrians towards Germans than from the Swiss Germans towards Germans. Their language might be different, but that's it.

It's not a real multi-ethnic state either, due to them having an extremely long history of being Swiss citizens instead identifying as a part of their actual ethnic group.

I assure you that the Swiss identify as much with their first language as with the concept of being Swiss.

Ukraine is also a success story - for all the fighting in the Verkhovna Rada, the country works on a daily basis just fine despite two major ethnic groups in the country and other minorities. I know both ethnic Ukrainians and ethnic Russians who don't have problems on a daily basis - as in Switzerland, they will just use whatever their first language is and the others will understand, if not speak.

It's worth pointing out that many states such as Estonia and Latvia are working just fine.
Lyzko
9 Jul 2013 #49
Well, at least ALL the Swiss-Germans whom I knew from work knew fluently two to three languages. First of all, every Swiss German grows up with TWO mother tongues, Schwyzerduuetsch and Hoogduuetsch (the latter of course, in grade school), later on they learn compulsory French and English, others even Italian. Therefore, I'm curious now to which Swiss people you're referring:-)
RevokeNice 15 | 1,859
9 Jul 2013 #50
The liberals in Switzerland pushed for a referendum on asylum issues. Expecting it to pass. It failed miserably. They are really toghtening up and making it nigh near impossible for non EU interl...sorry, immigrants to get in.

Good luck to them.
Lyzko
9 Jul 2013 #51
So long as Mr. Blochert and his crew can "bloch" (no pun intended) any referendum, it hasn't got a prayer:-)
BBman - | 344
9 Jul 2013 #52
I'm partially Asian myself and both parents were immigrants to the UK, we're proud of our own culture but we are also very proud of traditional British culture, it's not racist for any ethnic group to want to maintain their culture as long as they respect other cultures too. I wouldn't expect the whole of Britain to become Sikh or eat only roti and dal. You can take bits that you like from each other!

I thought you were at least part non-white.
One thing you multi-culti fanatics can't understand is the fact that when you bring non-whites to a predominantly white country, the whites get slowly pushed out. Whites start to flee to the suburbs to escape the crime that certain non-whites bring with them and affirmative action makes it difficult for better trained/educated whites to find work because employers are forced to hire less qualified non-whites. How come euro immigrants to canada/usa didn't get to benefit from affirmative action? Why did they have to work their asses off whilst the non-whites today are essentially given these jobs without working for them?? Many Non-whites don't want to integrate into society and don;t even bother learning english then complain about racism when they're unable to find work. On the other hand there is no help for whites attempting to find work in predominantly non-white workplaces. As a matter of fact, non-whites are very unlikely to hire whites.

No country needs massive immigration. Some limited immigration is ok but only highly skilled/educated people with transferable education should be allowed.

The United States has done pretty well for itself, don't you think?

The US is a very racially divided country. The george zimmerman trial has highlighted this issue.

Switzerland has three main ethnic groups and manages exceptionally well!!

They're white, european ethnic groups. That's why they have no real problems.

I don't think the USA has created a truly stable multicultural society because of the rather unpleasant attitudes of the white ruling class but one thing is certain the USA would be nothing without it's ethnic minorities!

Unpleasant attitudes of the white ruling class??? What?? I really want you to expland on this absurdity...
Lyzko
9 Jul 2013 #53
Frankly, as expatiated upon at some length prior, the immigration phenomenon has mostly to do with the love affair of industrialized countries with cheap labor! Had there been no such massive influx of the "huddled masses" from Europe to America during the 19th century, perhaps instead, the US and Britain might have tried to economically build up the capital in poorer countries at the time, making migrations to foreign lands far less necessary. The German freedom fighters like Messrs. Carl Schurz etc.. would have remained in Germany to fight the good fight for grass roots democracy and no Nazis, no Hitler, hence, no Holocaust! The US would have become a prosperous, mostly WASP nation, some African slaves and much different, (maybe happier, calmer) place.

Then again, it's just a theory!
kaz200972 2 | 229
9 Jul 2013 #54
Its actually hilarious. You want it to be true so much! Remember when you lied to me before and told me that you were white?

Part white was what I said, I've never hidden the Indian side,why should I ? As Mum is of Greek origin it gives me both white and brown skin colour genes! I look more white in the winter, more Asian in the summer, using anthropological definitions I'm caucasian. Phenotypes and genotypes aside I am British whether you like it or not, tough!!! you can cry all you like but you can't alter the fact!

You need to read up about nationality laws, Dad has held a British passport since 1948 and previous to that he held a British Indian passport. Assuming that you hold an Eire passport you haven't had the right to decide what's British since 1922!! Further more my dad has medals for service in WW2 some of your compatriots were busy supporting Hitler!!! Without the likes of my family you'd not be sat there spouting crap! you'd be slave labour! You contribute nothing to British Society, your ancestors no doubt did but YOU don't whereas I and many other Asians, Afro Caribbeans, Chinese etc... do.So who the f--- are you to dictate to the British, while I fully support an Independent United Ireland and don't like what Britain has done to Ireland I think you have no rights to say who is British at all 'dtuigeann tĂș'?

If I decided to move to Kenya with my partner, gave birth to.a child there - would the child be Kenyan and African?

If the Kenyans gave you a passport and your child one too then yes you could consider your self and your child both Kenyan and African!

No country needs massive immigration. Some limited immigration is ok but only highly skilled/educated people with transferable education should be allowed.

Firstly no one is advocating a take over by any particular race, unlimited immigration doesn't benefit anyone.
Secondly most immigrants in Canada are extremely well integrated, Canada has a very good record of integration. Most immigrants learn English very quickly.
Thirdly Canada has no truck with the sort of positive discrimination you are suggesting, non whites don't like positive discrimination, it's patronising and unnecessary!

My brother in law lives in Vancouver, he has a medical practice there and is happy to employ whites if they have the appropriate education and skills, it's not unusual to find that Asians/Chinese/Japanese/Koreans etc have better qualifications than white Canadians though.

The USA is different from Canada though, the USA has a long history of treating both white and non white immigrants rather badly! Some of the white liberals come up with these stupid ideas of of race quotas, positive discrimination etc.... not realising how damaging they are.

Finally, both Canada and the USA would collapse without the input of the various non white ethnic groups!
Nacjonalista 4 | 96
9 Jul 2013 #55
Part white was what I said, I've never hidden the Indian side,why should I?

I see you don't understand the difference between citizenship and ethnicity. You might be a citizen of Great Britain but you're not ethnically British. Society is a racial construct.
Meathead 5 | 470
9 Jul 2013 #56
I don't think the USA has created a truly stable multicultural society because of the rather unpleasant attitudes of the white ruling class but one thing is certain the USA would be nothing without it's ethnic minorities!

Just because it's not worked well in the USA doesn't mean it can't work in other places, it could work in the USA if the system was a little more fair. That said, the USA has created a better multi cultural society than some places!!

America isn't multi cultural. It's a melting pot or as some people would say "melding pot". Canada is multi cultural, maybe the most multi cultural country in the World.

As for Swiss Germans hating Germans - that's not true as well

It's true, the Germans are the largest ethnic immigrant group in Switzerland and the Swiss don't like it.

Secondly most immigrants in Canada are extremely well integrated, Canada has a very good record of integration. Most immigrants learn English very quickly.

You obviously have never been there. Try asking for directions in english in Winnipeg's French Quarter.
Foreigner4 12 | 1,768
9 Jul 2013 #57
Secondly most immigrants in Canada are extremely well integrated, Canada has a very good record of integration. Most immigrants learn English very quickly.

This is untrue on 2 points. I don't even know why you'd write that it's so categorically untrue. As for a good record of integration, let me ask you this, who's keeping the records and what constitutes a good record of integration?

Here's a for instance. A good friend of mine relayed the story to me of what happened to his sister. She is originally from Northern England and has since immigrated to B.C. They went to a market in Vancouver (might've been Surrey or in that area) and were told they had to leave. Why? Well because they weren't Chinese and didn't belong there of course. I've seen many of the immigrants in Calgary treating that place like it's their personal dumping ground. Large corporations come in with no regard for the environment and immigrants do the same. Everyone just swoops in to take what they can and have no reservations about leaving if they can take more for themselves somewhere else.

All white but quite diverse

I guess others would disagree.

Thank you gentlemen for adding a counterbalance.
Are there any Swiss here to vouch for either perspective?

Equally diverse, though not as obvious to westerners. The cultural and religious differences within China, Singapore and India are huge, if you know the area there are big differences in phenotypes as well.

So you're telling me that China, Singapore and India have as much ethnic diversity as Canada, UK, USA and France?
Why wouldn't it be obvious to Westerners?
delphiandomine 88 | 18,455
9 Jul 2013 #58
ethnically British.

Doesn't exist.

Hence it doesn't matter what she is - she's still British.
RevokeNice 15 | 1,859
9 Jul 2013 #59
Only a white person would claim that they are not a distinct ethnic group. Would a Chinaman claim that the Han is not a distinct ethnic group? A South Korean? A Nigerian of Igbo descent? An Indian of Punjab descent?

Nope. Not a chance. Only whitey swallows the kool aid. Telling an non white that they are of x European nationality and as indigenous as anyone else is an absurd lie. Just over fifty years ago a non white in Europe was as rare as hens teeth. They comprised.less than one percent of the population. Now, they are slowly becoming majorities in our major cities.

This is most concerning. The question is - shall whitey surrender his homeland and eventually become a minority in his own continent peacefully?
Malopolanin 3 | 133
9 Jul 2013 #60
Raspail's "Camp of the Saints" is becoming reality. Look at Lampedusa.


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