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Immigration in Poland and being surrounded by a monoculture?


Lenka 3 | 2,761
9 Jul 2013 #91
I don't see being white as anything important. Why should I care about the colour of mine or somebody's else skin? I don't see any race problem- I can only see society's problems with some citizens. Period. If someone comes here legaly I have no problem with it. No matter what country he comes from.
Foreigner4 12 | 1,768
9 Jul 2013 #92
This is your perception only,

No. You are wrong. I can prove it. Do you want me to?

Having been to Canada on several occasions and having white Canadian friends and Asian relatives there, I don't see or hear about much tension.

The tension may not be there but the effects are. I was just thinking about my best friend today and one thing he told me last year was that one thing he really likes seeing is white folks being spiritual/churchy. But he said "you don't see much of that any more like you used to. It's like all the traditions I learnt when I got here have gone somewhere else."

His words, he's not white, he's lived there ever since he immigrated but what does he know compared to you?

Most people are Canadian first and Jamaican/Indian/Chinese second.

Untrue, it's changing for the better but the Chinese are not the group who are leading that change. No sir, no they are not.

There are relatively few racial incidents,

Until I know your definition of a "racial incident" I cannot comment. What is it and how do you know the frequency which it occurs in Canada?

The biggest problem with minority groups in Canada is the way the aboriginal groups are treated! Inuits and Native Indians have quite a poor deal!

I agree but I think you don't actually know what the deal is that the First Nations have and how it has affected them. I have a feeling you don't know much difference between a Woodland Cree Reserve and an Ojibwe Reservation and are just beating on another racially inspired drum.

White immigrants have no God given right to populate Canada. Like the USA, it is a land stolen from the indigenous population. It is totally hypocritical to shout about non white immigration when you are no more than immigrants yourself!!!

I didn't immigrate where I was born anymore than you colonized the damn place so peddle that idiotic rhetoric for the 19-26 yr old liberal arts crowd who buy into it. However, seeing as you feel so compelled to draw upon the colonization/invasion of North America from the perspective of those who were invaded then ask yourself why you advocate others to accept invasion? Take your time on that one.

It's quite usual for a while at least to miss the subtle physical and cultural differences in the ethnic groups.

So you're saying that China is as racially/ethnically diverse as the UK et al but the physical and cultural differences aren't so easy for the untrained eye to pick up on? I think you're lying, in fact I'm sure you're lying. You don't need much of a trained eye to spot the difference between Japanese, Jamaican, Desi, Sudanese, Chinese, Armenian and Irish, Lebanese, Jewish, and many many more ethnicities in the UK et al.
kondzior 12 | 1,221
9 Jul 2013 #93
Whites are so racist they even hate their own race.
jon357 71 | 20,328
10 Jul 2013 #94
I don't see being white as anything important. Why should I care about the colour of mine or somebody's else skin?

Exactly. Most people don't care about skin tone - and those who do generally have all sorts of problems.
kondzior 12 | 1,221
10 Jul 2013 #95
By whites we mean Caucasians. It's the genes that matter, skin color is irrelevant. Much like saying "black" usually means of west African origin, even though there's plenty of other races which are as dark as you can get.

For the record, I am not racist. There's a difference in acknowledging the existence of race and racial traits and then exploit it to built feelings of racial superiority, hatred and prejudice.
Polsyr 6 | 769
10 Jul 2013 #96
I don't see being white as anything important. Why should I care about the colour of mine or somebody's else skin? I don't see any race problem- I can only see society's problems with some citizens. Period. If someone comes here legaly I have no problem with it. No matter what country he comes from.

That is because you are a normal, reasonable person.

In some cases, people that have no credible achievements in life tend to puff themselves up with things that they were born with, such as ethnicity, skin color and citizenship, or with achievements of other persons, like hypothetical distant ancestors or people of similar ethnicity and skin color etc.

People like that are impossible to reason with because their beliefs are not based on reason.

A typical example would be a male in his 20s, living with his parents, probably barely made it through high school or didn't even make it, unemployed or doing a job that he thinks he is too good for, and spends a considerable amount of time complaining about his situation directly and indirectly to people that he knows as well as people that he doesn't know, in person and online (like web forums, blogs, social networking sites etc.) He is arrogant, cocky and a know-it-all. He invariably blames people of other ethnicities for stealing potential opportunities from him, and blames the government for not protecting him from this, despite the fact that he makes no effort to win any opportunities and expects the government to hand them to him on a silver platter based on nothing but his belief that he is entitled to them based on nothing but his ethnic origin (or the achievements of other people that he thinks he is related to).

He is likely to hang out with like-minded individuals (i.e. losers). They probably dress different from their peers and act in a sociopathic manner (spit in public, swear a lot, rude by default etc.) Almost certainly some of them have committed offenses as juveniles or adults, ranging from vandalism to assault and robbery. Almost certainly some of them are substance dependent (smokers and/or alcoholics and/or drug addicts).

Unless I am completely wrong and they have PhD's from top academies and they have super careers at the world's top corporations... Which I doubt.
kondzior 12 | 1,221
10 Jul 2013 #97
My only concern is civilization and the pool of human achievement. If race is a factor, then the subject is sure to perk my interest. It would be nice if it wasn't, but i have to be open to the possibility, particularly in the face of statistical or historical data.

My agenda, if you can call it that, is the preservation of western civilization and the perpetuation of truth, rationality and the belief in the elevation of the human condition. There's a difference between actively promoting domination and hatred (supremacy) and acting in self-defense when everything you've come to love in your life is being demolished before your very eyes, not just because of any external pressure, but from within.

I harbor no feelings of hatred or prejudice against the blacks (good luck explaining my increasingly large Jazz collection if i did), or the jews, or whatever the hell is out there, i just can't stand the self-loathing, weak minded groveling fools who simply can't wait to send our culture to an early grave, and for what? Just to demonstrate how nice we are, in the hope that love, empathy and understanding is going to solve everything?

Life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness is a worthy goal, but only when those concepts follow the order in which they are written. When you place happiness above liberty, and either of those above the right of life (which also translates in self preservation) it can only lead to disaster, which is what's happening to our civilization right now and people like you, dear sir, are part of the problem
jon357 71 | 20,328
10 Jul 2013 #98
In some cases, people that have no credible achievements in life tend to puff themselves up with things that they were born with, such as ethnicity, skin color and citizenship, or with achievements of other persons, like hypothetical distant ancestors or people of similar ethnicity and skin color etc.

This is absolutely spot on. Feeling some sort of misplaced pride about a person half the world away because they have a similar amount of melatonin in their skin or because their surname is similar is frankly bizarre.
kondzior 12 | 1,221
10 Jul 2013 #99
Did anyone chose to belong to their current family before being born? Does that i mean i shouldn't love my parents and my siblings more then anybody else?

Any true citizen of the world should first abandon his gated white community, and move to Zimbabwe or at least Thailand to prove he means what he says when he says we're all the same.

It is all about nationalism, which is concern for the gene pool that you're a part of and, often, for that reason alone feel more home among than elsewhere.

This doesn't necessarily have anything to do with superiority and inferiority. Fish and birds may be "equal" in their respective environments, but a fish won't be at home among birds, and rightly so.

Nationalism is merely the extension of family. It's not a coincidence that there is no longer honor, loyalty, and such old-fashioned things in places where nationalism has died. Such things exist only in relation to something. You can't be loyal or honorable if there isn't anything you are loyal or honorable in relation to.

The modern Western civilization has come close to the state of "no one else than me" and, therefore, "no morality". By alienating us from our natural bonds to our home soil and home humans (nation), and creating a society where everyone is dependent on the State rather than on family for support in times of need, the modern West has also destroyed our very capacity for true loyalty and honor and the fulfilling life these things, and often these things alone, would let us lead.
kaz200972 2 | 229
10 Jul 2013 #100
No. You are wrong. I can prove it. Do you want me to?

So far your information has been anecdotal but I'd be interested to hear what you have to say.

I don't doubt your friend has seen changes that he may dislike,that's a natural part of life. The fall in church going among the white population is nothing to do with non white immigration, church attendance is falling in countries that have only tiny numbers of non whites.

Untrue, it's changing for the better but the Chinese are not the group who are leading that change. No sir, no they are not.

The Chinese do maintain their culture and language well but they are good citizens and are very proud of living in Canada

Race riots, racially motivated attacks. I can read the crime figures and some of the family have been there since the early 60's.

I agree but I think you don't actually know what the deal is that the First Nations have and how it has affected them.

You've picked the wrong woman here!!! I do know the difference! Brother in law was based in Winnipeg when he first went to Canada, he did some work with the Cree and helped train a couple of paramedics who he is still close to. I haven't been to Cadotte Lake but I've been to all three of the Little Red River Cree reservations and stayed with families, I've also stayed in Blood! I don't personally know any Ojibwe but I know the role they played in helping obtain greater rights for the First Nations. My nephew works with an Ojibwe lady but I probably won't meet her for some time yet.

I'm not overly impressed by the First Nation deal but I suppose it's a start.

I didn't immigrate where I was born anymore than you colonized the damn place so peddle that idiotic rhetoric for the 19-26 yr old liberal arts crowd who buy into it.

No you didn't, same as me I was born in the UK but I'm of Asian/Greek ancestry and forget the liberal arts bit my subject is physics! My point is that after having colonized Canada and the USA the white immigrants could not manage without non white immigrants so encouraged immigration, now some of the whites are shouting that too many non whites are immigrating! HOW HYPOCRITICAL IS THAT? I doubt the First Nations or Inuits want any of us there!

You seem to object to non white immigration but feel that white immigration is acceptable, how can you justify that?
Poland needs more people, why shouldn't it be Asians or Chinese or Afro Caribbeans???
If Poles can come to Britain, which has many ethnic groups, why can't different ethnic groups go to Poland? No one is advocating invasion. I'm not against immigration control as such but it should never be on the lines of colour or ethnicity

So you're saying that China is as racially/ethnically diverse as the UK et al but the physical and cultural differences aren't so easy for the untrained eye to pick up on?

Please don't accuse me of lying it's rude! If an Indian who has lived in India all their lives and had little contact with white people it's quite difficult to differentiate between the different white ethnic groups. As my gran used to say 'all whites look the same to me' it's true of people travelling from Africa and China. Obviously after a while you see the differences in whites. I can't identify different Chinese ethnic groups from phenoytype alone, nor can I identify different African ethnic groups, I can do it to an extent in India but only because of my own travels there, it doesn't mean that any of these places is less diverse than the UK, USA etc...
Foreigner4 12 | 1,768
10 Jul 2013 #101
So far your information has been anecdotal but I'd be interested to hear what you have to say.

Oh great, Ms. "My relatives and friends told me..." is calling my information anecdotal. Well Mr. Pot, let me bring you back to a comment you made which I responded to:

Secondly most immigrants in Canada are extremely well integrated, Canada has a very good record of integration. Most immigrants learn English very quickly.

One poster replied:

You obviously have never been there. Try asking for directions in english in Winnipeg's French Quarter.

I relayed my own anecdote which happened to two people and you replied

This is your perception only

So no, that is at least the perception of the 2 people it happened to, my friend whose sister was involved, me and Meathead responded that were dead wrong earlier. That means it isn't my perception only. It is the perception of people who choose to look at the subject of immigration and integration objectively based on our experiences or the word of people who have zero reason to lie about such matters. Do you understand that?

The fall in church going among the white population is nothing to do with non white immigration, church attendance is falling in countries that have only tiny numbers of non whites.

Both he and I disagree. Seeing as we've lived there and you've visited I am going to go out on a limb and say non-white immigration has affected just about everything in Canada in one way or another. Saying it hasn't just tells me you're afraid to admit to any drawbacks to immigration. And that's the thing, I'm not against immigration but I am against how immigration is currently happening. I believe it is a vehicle in which global disparity will continue to travel upwards. This isn't a white vs. nonwhite thing to me.

I like and support diversity. I think policies that are too open, as they are now, are not the recipe for long term success but a road to instability, dependency and inequality.

One discussion I had with my friend (Ojibwe) was about the Canadian gov't allowing the Mines to fly in Chinese workers to do the job.

He kind of laughed and said people were complaining foreigners were taking their jobs.
I asked him what he thought and he said the workers should have the right to claim citizenship and that would settle everything.
He asked me what I thought and I said the contractor gets to make massive profits, cut down it's overhead, plunder resources and what do the tax payers get out of it?

the point of that anecdote (guilty as charged) is that one has to look at these situations from a variety of angles and I believe you have chosen not to do that.

The Chinese do maintain their culture and language well but they are good citizens and are very proud of living in Canada

I'm sure they are very proud but as their numbers increase (and their numbers are really increasing), their need to integrate decreases and that's just a fact of human nature. It's not unheard of that they only do business with other Chinese and pay in cash as often as possible to avoid taxes. I've heard from a few Desi people the same is also true in their communities in Canada.

You've picked the wrong woman here!!!

Well colour me surprised. I believe you and admire you for that taking advantage of those experiences. I apologize.

My point is that after having colonized Canada and the USA the white immigrants could not manage without non white immigrants so encouraged immigration, now some of the whites are shouting that too many non whites are immigrating!

Well your point lacks merit mainly because you haven't factored in time with your rant against white North Americans. Firstly, white immigrants managed just fine without any non-white immigrants for about a 2000 km radius where I'm from. They worked themselves to death and endured some of the most bitter cold in the world in isolation because there was no other choice. You should not insult them or their efforts to succeed.

Secondly and most importantly what do you mean by "some of the whites?" Are you talking about the people that you think "could not manage without non white immigrants and so encouraged immigration?" Because those people are dead. People today are not the "villainous" white men that exist in your imagination of the past.

The people who are talking about slowing down immigration are people who benefit least of all from increased immigration and they're the ones paying the most taxes.

I doubt the First Nations or Inuits want any of us there!

Which takes us back to my earlier question; seeing as you feel so compelled to draw upon the colonization/invasion of North America from the perspective of those who were invaded then ask yourself why you advocate others to accept invasion? I am still waiting for your answer to that one.

You seem to object to non white immigration but feel that white immigration is acceptable, how can you justify that?

Very very easily depending on where we're talking about of course. I wouldn't advocate massive amounts of white people from around the world setting up shop in Africa (oh, would you look at that rape and murder is on the forecast for South Africa) and I wouldn't advocate massive amounts of Chinese people setting up shop in Poland either. I don't even think it's a good idea for massive numbers of Poles to set up shop in the UK. If I had my way, people would first have fair opportunities for gainful employment at home before they were forced to move due to circumstances.

Please don't accuse me of lying it's rude!

Well then please don't be so rude as to lie.
You're claiming Indian or Chinese societies are as or more ethnically diverse than those in the UK, USA, France, Canada or even Germany.
Are there a great many different ethnicities and cultures in India and China?
You said yes and I'll take your word for it.
Is that even remotely close to the diversity in countries which accept so many immigrants? No, not even close.
If there are 15 Chinese people in China that are ethnically different from each other and they all emigrate to the UK then they are still ethnically different and they have added to the diversity in their new home -you can't just call them Chinese once they arrive in the UK and ignore that they're ethnically different from other Chinese immigrants. You also have to add their genetic diversity to all the different ethnicities from Asia, Africa, Europe, South America, Australia and North America that live in the UK (for example). We can do that same comparison for the US, France, Canada and Germany.

Agree or disagree?
BBman - | 344
10 Jul 2013 #102
The whites nicked the USA off the aboriginal Indians you have no more right that land than an Afro Caribbean,Chinese,Hispanic,Martian etc... if you can be immigrants so can everyone else! Of course if all the whites left in deference to the true owners of the land, well then the non whites would be honour bound to leave too!

Many countries and empires lost land. The indians were one of many. Poland used to be much larger geographically. Germany once controlled much of europe. What's your point? Besides these natives came from asia so maybe we should return this land to the animals.

Can't say I've seen or heard of either types being common place, I have friends and family in the country and visited several times myself.

Non-whites are always blind to discrimination against whites. You people seem to think that whites have to bend over backwards to satisfy you.

why is a poorly qualified Jamaican more of a liability than a poorly qualified Pole?

A quick look at crime stats in canada and the usa would show you that jamaicans cause disproportionately more crime than poles....or just about any other ethnic group.

No I am realistic do you seriously think the WASPS and Rednecks in the USA could run the place by themselves? they'd be too busy fighting over who was going to man the burger bars!!!!
AS for Canada, well if the white settlers could have run the country, they'd have never let the non whites in!

Whites built this country and ran in successfully whilst your indian ancestors were living in the most primitive conditions (some half of which still do). By the end of ww2 the US was a superpower. It was an economic powerhouse. There were hardly any non-whites in the country. Then some certain traitors in the US government opened the immigration flood gates and what we see now in the states is that the country is slowly declining. Ancient rome experienced a similar downfall.

Read the History books!!!

I'm aware of the history, but you were initially referring to the present day. So, answer the bloody question. Please do tell me, how white countries are unfavourable to non-whites like yourself who are welcomed to the country (there are minimum quotas btw), given welfare money, allowed to scam our health care & dole systems, given preferential treatment in the workplace (affirmative action) even if they are less qualified, universities (USA) are forced to enroll a min. percentage of non-white students...

The biggest problem with minority groups in Canada is the way the aboriginal groups are treated! Inuits and Native Indians have quite a poor deal!

The natives WERE treated poorly in the past. But today they have more opportunities than anyone else, even a non-white such as yourself. They have access to free post-secondary education and are not required to pay taxes as long as the maintain part of their cultural communities. Canada has an official policy of Affirmative Action for natives. Sadly most natives prefer to drink alcohol and sniff gasoline instead of using these resources (that come out of my pocket) to better their lives. They can't even run their own communities without adequately providing for their people, as was seen in northern ontario last year when they recklessly blew my tax money (couldn't account for where the money went, investigation concluded) which resulted in no money to buy food and heat homes!
Ryz - | 43
10 Jul 2013 #103
I have friends in Thompson that say EXACTLY word for word what you just wrote. I thought they were exaggerating but I guess not. It's a sad state of affairs...
jon357 71 | 20,328
10 Jul 2013 #104
these resources (that come out of my pocket)

Actually from revenues derived from their country which your ancestors moved to.
BBman - | 344
11 Jul 2013 #105
What an idiotic statement.

They haven't created any revenue and it's not their country. It's our country.
jon357 71 | 20,328
11 Jul 2013 #106
They haven't created any revenue

The revenue is created from their lands.

Though for those of us who've moved to Poland, it's interesting you think that for he original population:

it's not their country

Foreigner4 12 | 1,768
11 Jul 2013 #107
Yeah BBman, on some things I agree with you on but on other things I disagree with you on.
Regarding the First Nations, what you've described does unfortunately exist and much of it is due to internal corruption. However you have to put your power of imagination to work and wonder how it ever got that bad. This is something more people should do, really sit down and instead of looking at European immigrants as being responsible for everything, just look at how the First Nations were affected. Just focusing on the loss of life, leadership and livelihood would help.

That being said, some individuals and orgs on behalf of minority groups really do take the Canadian tax payer for a ride and NO, that has not benefited the welcoming society AT ALL.

One thing that must be acknowledged is that all the inhabitants of European countries don't seem happy with the prospect of MORE immigration. Despite this, their perspectives, observations and worries are not only being disrespected but marginalized as well. To me that is every bit as closed-minded as what the anti-immigration crowd is being accused of.
jon357 71 | 20,328
11 Jul 2013 #108
Regarding the First Nations, what you've described does unfortunately exist and much of it is due to internal corruption.

Very sad really. It's happened in Australia, Greenland, parts of the Americas and Russia too. It's a brutal thing to uproot someone from their traditional way of life and give them a weekly check instead.
delphiandomine 88 | 18,454
11 Jul 2013 #109
It's much easier to do that, however.

I read one story (probably not true, but anyway) about how they stocked a lake with fish on one reservation. The locals simply got a boat, fished everything out and were left with nothing - they had no interest in living a "traditional" way of life when they could make easy money.
RevokeNice 15 | 1,859
11 Jul 2013 #110
Its horrible what happened to the first nations peoples in North America. Especially in Canada. There are only one million of them left and some of them are whiter skinned than I. The true number is much lower. I think if you are of 1/16th native ancestry you get pigeon holed into native status. Alcohol and substance abuse is rife. As is suicide. Alcohol is a relatively new chemical, introduced to them by the white man. Our ancestors were supping the stuff for thousands of years, so we have a better tolerance for the swalloy. It sends them lala.

They have lost touch with the ways of old, become dependent on handouts and see modern society as victors over their own. I dont think integration,on a large scale, is possible. If I was in their shoes I would hate the white man too.

Impossible situation to solve.
Nacjonalista 4 | 96
11 Jul 2013 #111
A normal sensible person would not support their genocide. It's cultural marxist mind poison invented by the usual suspects.

In some cases, people that have no credible achievements in life tend to puff themselves up with things that they were born with, such as ethnicity, skin color and citizenship, or with achievements of other persons, like hypothetical distant ancestors or people of similar ethnicity and skin color etc.

Typical anti-white line. Do you say the same thing to Latinos who are proud of their Aztec and Mayan heritage?

People like that are impossible to reason with because their beliefs are not based on reason.

Yeah right.

He is likely to hang out with like-minded individuals (i.e. losers). They probably dress different from their peers and act in a sociopathic manner (spit in public, swear a lot, rude by default etc.) Almost certainly some of them have committed offenses as juveniles or adults, ranging from vandalism to assault and robbery. Almost certainly some of them are substance dependent (smokers and/or alcoholics and/or drug addicts).

What a load of ********. Have you ever personally met any sociopaths? They are concerned with only one thing me,me,me. What's best for me. They are not at all compatible with White nationalism as it's a movement of loving and serving others-your extended family. Read the 14 words. Most WNs would give their life for their race if called upon. That is polar opposite of what a sociopath stands for.

Unless I am completely wrong and they have PhD's from top academies and they have super careers at the world's top corporations... Which I doubt.

Dr.William Pierce, David Duke, Kevin MacDonald, the leader of Golden Dawn. They are all very educated and successful. You'd be surprised how many middle and upper class Whites at least sympathize with the movement. We are waking up as a people.
Sonickewl - | 1
12 Jul 2013 #112
You people are being really over dramatic about the effects immigration would have. As long as it's controlled, immigration in my opinion is the perfect solution to make up for the decrease in the population of Poland. Multicultural and multiethnic places in general are a lot more interesting to visit, since the people are more varied, and therefore people's customs are varied and the cuisine becomes more varied and so on... Also, people often complain how unclean and badly maintained Polish cities are, well immigrants could be hired cheaply to maintain the city streets, that is, if there aren't enough under-educated and under-employed Polish people anyway.

Either way, unless Polish people start having more kids, allowing immigration will be the only solution to making up for all the lost workforce. It's not like investment in a countries own people can really solve anything if the people themselves are all emigrating or not having kids!

It's not so much a question of IF it will happen as when it will happen.
Foreigner4 12 | 1,768
12 Jul 2013 #113
immigration in my opinion is the perfect solution to make up for the decrease in the population of Poland

Your opinion is wrong.
Family friendly economic policies and fair opportunities at home for Poles would do that better.
Polsyr 6 | 769
14 Jul 2013 #114
Your opinion is wrong

Reason?

Family friendly economic policies

Example?

fair opportunities at home

Example?
delphiandomine 88 | 18,454
14 Jul 2013 #115
Family friendly economic policies

You can have the friendliest economic policies in the world, but it won't change the fact that educated, intelligent people working in good jobs won't want to have several children. It'll just encourage morons to breed for the benefits - as we've seen in the UK.

fair opportunities at home

There are many opportunities that Poles just don't want to take up.

I've offered compulsory work practice student placements for 3 years now - you would be surprised how utterly lazy and unmotivated they seem to be. So many times, I've had people e-mailing me asking if I can just stamp the papers for them without doing the practice - despite the fact that our placements are actually well worth doing, as there's the possibility of employment afterwards.

Then there's the ones who baulk at the thought that "job training" involves actual training. Then there's the ones who have a habit of mysteriously being "sick" and "not able to come" just before a long weekend. They soon recover when I tell them that the placement is finished and I won't stamp their papers... Oh, and must not forget those that sulk and complain because the job practice is hard work. I remember one student whining and complaining because she had to sort out our sports hall for an end of term performance - in her mind, teaching was about working your set 18 hours and then going home.

The lack of opportunity is caused by two main factors - a pathetic work ethic and a culture that encourages employee abuse of employers, particularly small employers. Communism can still be blamed in this respect.
Grzegorz_ 51 | 6,161
14 Jul 2013 #116
but it won't change the fact that educated, intelligent people working in good jobs won't want to have several children.

The "Poles don't want to have more children" agenda you are constantly pushing here is simply nonsense, which was proven by countless studies and surveys.

The lack of opportunity is caused by two main factors - a pathetic work ethic and a culture that encourages employee abuse of employers, particularly small employers.

Utter nonsense again, you most likely made it all up or what "you" offer is some 700 zł a month crap, people in the city with lowest unemployment rate in Poland simply will not treat it seriously as it is not competitive on that market. Employers, who treat people like shyt will sooner or later receive the same treatment, nothing to do with work ethic, you seem to confuse that with slave mentality.
RevokeNice 15 | 1,859
14 Jul 2013 #117
The Poles can be considered a lot of things - but lazy is not one of them. Lazy to not work for free, is not a bad trait.

Im not a fan of mass immigration from Poland. Read my previous posts. But anyway.....

We have an annual street clean up where I live. We polish the place, then have a bbq. Normally immigrants join in for the party and leave us to the work. Until last year. A group of Polish friends came to us and offered their services - What do you want us to do? Pardon me, says I. How we help?? You wanna help?

And they did help.

We have damn near 180 nationalities living here. Only yhe Polish, Slovenians and Chinese dug in and putin that work.

They are treated with the utmost respect now.
Foreigner4 12 | 1,768
14 Jul 2013 #118
You can have the friendliest economic policies in the world, but it won't change the fact that educated, intelligent people working in good jobs won't want to have several children.

I didn't write "family-friendly policies which reward people for having children under any and all circumstances" so let's be clear that what you've assumed from "family-friendly economic polices" isn't what I meant. Poles, culturally, really value family. I know families are becoming smaller but with the right incentives, the right people would likely choose to have more children if they could.

There are many opportunities that Poles just don't want to take up.

I've offered compulsory work practice student placements for 3 years now - you would be surprised how utterly lazy and unmotivated they seem to be.

I think we'd all be surprised to find out how much the arrangement really benefits the student vs how much it benefits your cause. I would at least like to hear another side of the story other than just yours before I come to any conclusions.

Utter nonsense again, you most likely made it all up or what "you" offer is some 700 zł a month crap, people in the city with lowest unemployment rate in Poland simply will not treat it seriously as it is not competitive on that market.

My thoughts exactly. In this day and age, when comparatively good money is available outside but near Poland, money is going to become a bigger issue. Now, that being said, I've run across some major sh*tstains who want good money for very substandard work. That breed is still very much alive here in Poland and they are holding back their respective markets in many ways here. I had some guys come in to look at doing some renovation work. No one would work with anything but prefabricated press board type material and wouldn't/couldn't make custom cuts.

When I ask myself how that's possible, the answer is clear: many Poles don't invest in their businesses. These guys haven't bought the tools to make custom cuts on site. They belong to that old attitude that Delphi you've alluded to still exists among a lot of people here. I wouldn't call it laziness in the physical sense but I think I have seen what you wrote about (to some extent).

Reason?

If people don't have to uproot themselves from their countries to score a fair opportunity then, a lot of the times and especially with families, they don't.

Examples? I think if you came up with your own ideas to start off with, it'd help develop the conversation. If you can't come up with any ideas then I doubt we have much to discuss anyhow.
delphiandomine 88 | 18,454
14 Jul 2013 #119
I know families are becoming smaller but with the right incentives, the right people would likely choose to have more children if they could.

The problem is that there exists a quite powerful lobby in Poland that represents "families" - and that lobby demands the same concessions for all families. You and I know that the best solution is to give high rate taxpayers tax rebates - but you would hear endless screaming from those who think that it's their Catholic right to have endless children that they can't actually afford to have.

I've always thought that the current situation in Poland where those with 4+ children are rewarded with all sorts of benefits to be a destructive policy. Why is it that the responsible family of 2+2 that chose to bring up children properly are punished, while those who were irresponsible and had 4+ are rewarded?

I think we'd all be surprised to find out how much the arrangement really benefits the student vs how much it benefits your cause. I would at least like to hear another side of the story other than just yours before I come to any conclusions.

I'll try and explain what the situation is :

In Poland, some degrees have compulsory job training - some universities offer it in house (for instance, picking fruit on a university farm, I kid you not...) - but others demand that you go outside and get it. In my field (education) - it's mandatory to do x amount of hours. So - schools all do it differently, some will just stamp the papers for you and tell you to get lost, others will hand you a class and say "here you are", and others will do it properly.

We do it properly - they start off with observing classes and discussing things with teachers, then they progress to assisting in a class, then they co-teach, then they teach while being observed, then they finally have the class by themselves without observation - just self evaluation. As part of it, they're expected to do all the duties that a normal teacher might have to do - for instance, setting up a hall for a play, or going to the shop to buy supplies, or going to the printers to pick up things - whatever. The idea is that it teaches them responsibility and it also lets them understand exactly how much preparation and work goes into teaching in a school. They don't do anything that I (or other teachers) don't have to do - but of course, it can be mundane rubbish like photocopying too. It's all structured so that they come out after their placement being able to go into a school and teach without needing to have their hand held.

What we also do is use that time to observe whether they would make a good fit - last year, we gave two jobs to students who had got their work practice with us rather than hiring externally - we knew them, they were good and they'd done a great job during their practice.

Utter nonsense again, you most likely made it all up or what "you" offer is some 700 zł a month crap, people in the city with lowest unemployment rate in Poland simply will not treat it seriously as it is not competitive on that market.

No Greggy, we offer people a proper job with the Karta Nauczyciela. Again, just because your own experiences are so bitter doesn't mean that everyone else is bitter as well. You also missed the point - I'm talking about people on work experience, not people looking for work.

Following on -

What we've found is that many students simply don't want to put the hard work in during the work practice. We've got something like 6-7 students at any one time, and what happens time and time again is that they are shocked that they're expected to work hard during the placement - as hard as the normal teachers. They're quite surprised that we just don't sit them down and tell them to observe, or that they have to take real responsibility for classes. It seems that (from talking to one of them) that many people have the papers stamped by schools that couldn't care less - and we do. If they're there to get trained, then we have to train them.

The whole course we design for them is designed to make sure that they are able to work. It's tough - we have a policy that if they can't take full responsibility for a class by the end of the practice, then we won't stamp their papers. But it also recognises that they're inexperienced teachers and that they make mistakes - it's more about being responsible than anything else.

When I ask myself how that's possible, the answer is clear: many Poles don't invest in their businesses. These guys haven't bought the tools to make custom cuts on site. They belong to that old attitude that Delphi you've alluded to still exists among a lot of people here. I wouldn't call it laziness in the physical sense but I think I have seen what you wrote about (to some extent).

Yep, it's very much alive and well. It's madness - these people have their own businesses, yet they seem incredibly reluctant to actually invest in themselves/the business. They then wonder why their business isn't succeeding - well - the lack of flexibility might have something to do with it?

I remember a friend of mine needed some plumbing work done in a dire emergency. They called their usual guy, who told them that he didn't work after 4pm and that was that - he wasn't interested in coming. They found another guy who was happy to come and get wet and filthy in the middle of the night - and from that, he got all the routine work from then on as a result of being willing to help out. What made the story so insane is that the first plumber knew that he was a good customer - yet he simply wasn't willing to get out of bed to fix a situation - even though he could have charged the moon.

What I've found in Poland is that people will pay a premium price for a good service quite happily - but finding that good service is much easier said than done.
Foreigner4 12 | 1,768
14 Jul 2013 #120
You and I know that the best solution is to give high rate taxpayers tax rebates

Actually I don't think that's the best solution. Reason being, I've met some real slimey characters with lots of money in this country. I see no reason to reward people in that sense when so many of the people positioned to receive that reward have already cased the system (so to speak). I think that is a solution but not the best one.

I think offering high rate taxpayer rebates for post-secondary graduates would be preferable. The higher the degree, the more of a rebate they deserve should they decide to have children, whenever that may be. I admit that's just an off-the-top-of-my-head idea and would need tweaking but my bottom line is that the people with the most money don't need tax breaks and the people with the least money maybe aren't for me to judge.

Why is it that the responsible family of 2+2 that chose to bring up children properly are punished, while those who were irresponsible and had 4+ are rewarded?

I don't really see it the responsibility of the state to "punish" people for having children. However, if long-term stability is a goal then certainly, leaders should be encouraging the most able bodied and minded people to become parents.

I'll try and explain what the situation is :

Fair enough. If that's an accurate description then I stand corrected.

What made the story so insane is that the first plumber knew that he was a good customer - yet he simply wasn't willing to get out of bed to fix a situation - even though he could have charged the moon.

I hear what you're saying, utilities don't care what time it is. When something stops working, it stops working. That said, the first guy must have a sweet set-up if he can work those hours. I admire something in that as well.


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