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Immigration in Poland and being surrounded by a monoculture?


m2s
7 Jul 2013  #1
I'm not against immigration, nor am I racist. But I really enjoy going back to Poland where I was born, and be surrounded by a monoculture. Do you think Poland will start accepting immigrants like Germany, France and England have been doing? Would Poles be down for that, or not so much? I'm really proud of our history.. not in a nationalistic way.. and I don't think it's racist or ignorant to say you want to preserve a culture. What do you guys think. Are you for or against it?
Polson 5 | 1,771
7 Jul 2013  #2
There are immigrants in Poland. Poland has developed a lot in the past decades, it attracts people.
But in my opinion, it can't really be like in the countries you mentioned (Germany, France, UK). Especially for France and the UK. No colonial past for Poland. And that makes a big difference.
kaz200972 2 | 229
7 Jul 2013  #3
Obviously every native ethnic group in any country wants to preserve it's culture, there is nothing wrong with this and they have the absolute right to do so. Immigration does not usually mean that the native culture is going to be destroyed, obviously there have been exceptions to this e.g. USA, Canada and parts of Africa but that was many years ago and hopefully people realise that it's wrong to destroy another culture.

Poland can only be enriched by immigration, it's population seems to be falling and there is much that other cultures can offer the country providing they don't aim to destroy Polish culture. That said as Poland has no colonial history as such and not a huge amount to offer immigrants I doubt there will be a massive amount of immigration there for the foreseeable future anyway.
Bieganski 17 | 901
8 Jul 2013  #4
there is much that other cultures can offer the country

Like what? Do you have any examples?
kaz200972 2 | 229
8 Jul 2013  #5
The chance to live and work with other cultures is beneficial, it can be a very good learning experience.
Many Asian cultures are very enterprising and have good technical skills, it could bring economic benefits.
Many fine doctors in other cultures too, again a bonus.
Bieganski 17 | 901
8 Jul 2013  #6
The chance to live and work with other cultures is beneficial, it can be a very good learning experience.

Yes on a personal level it can for some people. But does this always translate to a national level and how many new immigrants would be required to make this felt nationally?

Many Asian cultures are very enterprising and have good technical skills, it could bring economic benefits.
Many fine doctors in other cultures too, again a bonus.

Some Asian countries like China, Singapore and South Korea have had very dynamic economies over the past several decades but this also has much to do with investment being made by both their sovereign governments as well as foreign investment (virtually all in capital and hardly ever any labor which comes from the West).

However, others like Japan, Indonesia and Thailand have gone through many cycles of boom and bust. I often read that India is an up and coming global player but it never seems to get there. Australia, as an Asian country, has also attracted much immigration from its neighbors but it's economy has never been a juggernaut either. Despite it's population size and own natural resources it still lags economically behind much smaller countries like Italy, Germany and Japan.

As far as your other point regarding skills this would be more a problem with education within Poland if it cannot produce enough competent graduates in science, medicine and technology. If that's the case then how will immigrants to Poland and especially their offspring benefit when they have no choice but to use the existing Polish system of education? Will they drive educational reform that native Poles are unable to accomplish themselves or will the answer always be to bring in more immigrants?
Malopolanin 3 | 134
8 Jul 2013  #7
Many Asian cultures are very enterprising and have good technical skills, it could bring economic benefits.

Culture has nothing to do with technical skills. And we don't need foreign entrepreneurs, we need lower taxes.

The chance to live and work with other cultures is beneficial, it can be a very good learning experience.

Instead of turning Poland into ANOTHER western tower Babel we could make it diverse by staying monocultural. If every place will be multicultural no place will be different.

Many fine doctors in other cultures too, again a bonus.

What do you mean? Poland can't produce enough doctors?
kaz200972 2 | 229
8 Jul 2013  #8
Culture has nothing to do with technical skills. And we don't need foreign entrepreneurs, we need lower taxes.

Some of the Asian countries have a strong tradition of technical training and their scientific/technical training is exceptionally good.
Foreign entrepreneurs could build up trade links with other countries.

Instead of turning Poland into ANOTHER western tower Babel we could make it diverse by staying monocultural. If every place will be multicultural no place will be different.

As I said in my original post we're not talking about destroying or over taking Polish culture or traditions.

What do you mean? Poland can't produce enough doctors?

A few more wouldn't hurt and think of the benefits that those trained in some of world's best medical schools/hospitals could bring
legend 3 | 664
8 Jul 2013  #9
Poland can only be enriched by immigration, it's population seems to be falling and there is much that other cultures can offer the country providing they don't aim to destroy Polish culture. Th

What a bunch of drivel.
BBman - | 344
8 Jul 2013  #10
Obviously every native ethnic group in any country wants to preserve it's culture, there is nothing wrong with this

A lot of nut bars out there would be quick to point out your statement as being racist if you said that white people want to preserve their culture..

Anyways, diversity will come to Poland eventually. Much slower than in western europe though. One day the western world will look and operate like the city of Detroit, USA.

youtube.com/watch?v=MFE0qAiofMQ
kaz200972 2 | 229
8 Jul 2013  #11
What a bunch of drivel.

And you can suggest anything better? you don't even live in Poland and Canada couldn't survive without the various immigrant groups!
legend 3 | 664
8 Jul 2013  #12
Poland doesnt need immigrants (unless they are ethnic Poles). What it needs is to change lifestyle and people need more kids.
I do not want to see Poland turned into Arabia like France and Britain.
kaz200972 2 | 229
8 Jul 2013  #13
I don't think it's a cure all for the Polish economy but some input and trade links with Asian countries would be helpful.

Will they drive educational reform that native Poles are unable to accomplish themselves or will the answer always be to bring in more immigrants?

I think the Immigrants could be a driving force for educational reform and improvement, uncontrolled immigration isn't really a good idea for any country purely for practical reasons.
Polson 5 | 1,771
8 Jul 2013  #14
What it needs is to change lifestyle and people need more kids.

Sure, go make some.

I do not want to see Poland turned into Arabia like France and Britain.

Arabia? I assume you've never been to both France and Britain.
kaz200972 2 | 229
8 Jul 2013  #15
A lot of nut bars out there would be quick to point out your statement as being racist if you said that white people want to preserve their culture..

I'm partially Asian myself and both parents were immigrants to the UK, we're proud of our own culture but we are also very proud of traditional British culture, it's not racist for any ethnic group to want to maintain their culture as long as they respect other cultures too. I wouldn't expect the whole of Britain to become Sikh or eat only roti and dal. You can take bits that you like from each other!

Poland doesnt need immigrants (unless they are ethnic Poles). What it needs is to change lifestyle and people need more kids.
I do not want to see Poland turned into Arabia like France and Britain.

I don't see how that will change the bad things and what you want is of no consequence, you don't live there, you're busy living off the hard work of many different ethnic groups in Canada!!!
Bieganski 17 | 901
8 Jul 2013  #16
I don't think it's a cure all for the Polish economy but some input and trade links with Asian countries would be helpful.

Yes, I'm all for free trade and foreign capital investment. The more the better and places like Singapore and Switzerland are proof that you can create an intelligent and skilled workforce along with high standard of living by investing in your own people rather than importing labor on the cheap.

I think the Immigrants could be a driving force for educational reform and improvement, uncontrolled immigration isn't really a good idea for any country purely for practical reasons.

Uncontrolled immigration benefits no one. But this goes back to my earlier question regarding how much immigration do you think is needed to effect change on a national scale in Poland?

Also, don't you think luring doctors and scientists away from their home countries deprives those societies to use these skills for their own development? Should only Europe and North America have a middle class? Considering that many countries in Asia, Africa, the Middle East and South America have much large populations I'd say the West isn't simply skimming off excess skilled labor from these other regions. Rather, the West is more often than not taking the cream of the crop from those places who actually need them the most.
kaz200972 2 | 229
8 Jul 2013  #17
Uncontrolled immigration benefits no one. But this goes back to my earlier question regarding how much do you think is needed to effect change on a national scale in Poland?

I don't think you'd need massive numbers!
I see your point, but there are many scientists and doctors in Asia, they can spare a few. One of the problems is that doctors and scientists are often not paid well in many countries, it's not so much that there's a shortage of them. The west needs to encourage more people into science and medicine.
Bieganski 17 | 901
8 Jul 2013  #18
I don't think you'd need massive numbers!

Ok. How about 2 million immigrants? It's only about 5% of the current population and this influx should take Poland up to the magical 40 million mark.

What incentives do you think Poland should use to ensure they don't all settle only in a few of the major cities which is a typical pattern for many immigrants to any new country? After all this can lead to overcrowding and a spike in costs for goods in services for locals who have lived there their entire lives. Yet you can't invite people to become part of your country and then tell them where to live. It can be quite a balancing act.

Also, what do you think is needed to preserve the unique cultural identities of the new immigrant groups? They do deserve to honor and celebrate their roots and keep their own traditions alive. There is little point in having a population in Poland which looks physically diverse but linguistically and culturally they all become fully Polonised.

I'm sure you would agree that the enrichment the immigrants bring would be lost in a generation or two unless you took active steps to sustain it either through language and cultural studies for each new born generation or by keeping immigration at levels of constant replenishment. But then you could possibly risk showing a preference for certain immigrants from one region of the world over another.
Foreigner4 12 | 1,769
8 Jul 2013  #19
Polish people need more reasons to stay in Poland and become prosperous in Poland. For the size of the country 35 million people is more than enough a population to make this place a paradise.

My question is where is the demand for immigrants coming from? Is it coming from Polish people who just can't get enough Asian cuisine, language,...? Or is it coming from business owners who can get these people to work for EVEN less?

Or is there some other source of demand for Asians and Africans in Poland that I'm not aware of?

The more the better and places like Singapore and Switzerland are proof that you can create an intelligent and skilled workforce along with high standard of living by investing in your own people rather than importing labor on the cheap.

Correct.
Can someone please tell me the last multi-cultural and multi-ethnic country that succeeded in peace and prosperity for many generations?
It just doesn't look like a winning formula and certainly not for Polish society.
goofy_the_dog
8 Jul 2013  #20
I agree with u foreigner4.. We dont need another uk in Poland.
Poles living in Poland dont go this way or our culture will be lost!!!
delphiandomine 83 | 17,596
8 Jul 2013  #21
Can someone please tell me the last multi-cultural and multi-ethnic country that succeeded in peace and prosperity for many generations?

The United States has done pretty well for itself, don't you think?

For what it's worth, can anyone name a single country that lived in peace for generations? I can't...
Ziemowit 12 | 3,394
8 Jul 2013  #22
Can someone please tell me the last multi-cultural and multi-ethnic country that succeeded in peace and prosperity for many generations?

Having just returned from a 2-week stay in the Netherlands, I am inclined to say that this country may be such an example. But only the cities seem to be multi-racial and multi-cultural there. After a week in Amsterdam, I spent another week in a typical village of Friesland and there I could hardly spot anyone who was non-white. They all seemed to follow the Friesian and Dutch traditions and way of life and in their villages.
Foreigner4 12 | 1,769
8 Jul 2013  #23
The United States has done pretty well for itself, don't you think?

A fair answer but I think you haven't really analyzed things thoroughly.
I'd say at the beginning of the U.S. as a nation of people, the ethnicities were different but the cultural practices were very similar. There was a unity that was able to survive a civil war and grow the greatest industrial nation history has identified but it wasn't due to multi-culturalism.

However, in more recent times, the more multi-ethnic and multi-cultural U.S. society becomes, the worse it gets for the citizenry.
grspring 11 | 56
8 Jul 2013  #24
One way of preserving a culture is to share it and not attempt to make it a closed society.
My wife, whose parents were from a section of Poland that became part of the Soviet Union, and I started traveling to Poland three years ago. We purchased an apartment in Krakow and are planning for a two year stay once her citizenship is in place.

It will be up me to immerse myself in the culture and history, hopefully with help the Polish people. It is my obligation to learn as much of the language as possible (already started with Rosetta Stone and the help of my wife).

People in the United States ask, "Why Poland"? Most Americans here are in the dark as to the where Poland is located, that Poland has mountains and a rich long history and culture. Many Americans never heard of Poland until studying WWII in school.

Part of any immigration problem will be people from a closed society moving to an open society, wanting to maintain their closed society status. It does no work. Nor will an open society that looks down on the immigrant and refuses to let they try to assimilate.

These problems are easily illustrated in the United States where there is a long history of one immigrant population abusing the next. This is why we have Americans that call themselves Italian or Irish and live in communities that make it difficult for people of another ethnicity to penetrate even though we are all Americans. These people close their hearts and minds to anything different. I have found that most of the people in this group have never been to their ancestral home, Europe or even Canada.

Poland will never lose the Poland identity as long the people are proud and willing to share and there are those willing to learn.

....nothing so liberalizes a man and expands the kindly instincts that nature put in him as travel and contact with many kinds of people. Mark Twain
PennBoy 76 | 2,437
8 Jul 2013  #25
it can't really be like in the countries you mentioned (Germany, France, UK). Especially for France and the UK

Why does the UK and France have so many immigrants from the former colonies? Did they feel obligated to let them in because of the past?
jon357 63 | 14,120
8 Jul 2013  #26
I do not want to see Poland turned into Arabia like France and Britain.

Have you been to either of those countries? Or Poland?

One way of preserving a culture is to share it and not attempt to make it a closed society.

Very much so.
ufo973 10 | 89
8 Jul 2013  #27
SINCE I PERSONALLY KNOW SOME IMMIGRANTS HERE, THINK I CAN HELP YOU GUYS ON THIS TOPIC.

For Immigrants Poland is a jail where they stuck so badly that last week one of my fine friend deported himself back to his home country.

Why they are here?

They try to enter the Poland illegally to move to western countries but unfortunately some of them get caught and once their fingerprints are stored into EURODAC then it is game over for them. They have to wait here for Poland to take decisions about them and it could easily take 2-3 years (In other EU countries it takes 6-9 months).

Meanwhile they can't move to other EU countries too because their fingerprints are matched with EURODAC database and they can easily find that Poland was his first country of asylum so Poland is responsible for his application and they are sent back to Poland.

For More Information On Dublin Regulation And EURODAC Click Here:
europa.eu/legislation_summaries/justice_freedom_security/free_movement_of_persons_asylum_immigration/l33153_en.htm

How much financial benefit do they get?

70zl per month.
In neighboring Germany it is 360 euro per month. (This may answer some of your questions why the Poland will even never be close to become an immigrant country).

Where are they from?

90% of the immigrants in Poland are Chechens. other 5% are georgians. and the remainings are students who for some purposes want EU documents.

If you have any question regarding Immigrants feel free to ask me.
Harry
8 Jul 2013  #28
Have you been to either of those countries? Or Poland?

Of course he has never been to any of them.
I do love seeing immigrants whining about immigration, always good for a laugh!
kaz200972 2 | 229
8 Jul 2013  #29
Ok. How about 2 million immigrants? It's only about 5% of the current population and this influx should take Poland up to the magical 40 million mark.

Yes about 2 million would be okay, not enough to swamp the country but enough to bring fresh ideas to the economy and kick start changes and improvements in the education system. Many of the cultural events would be self funded and not too much money would be required for maintaining languages /religious studies, hopefully it would be part of the educational curriculum anyway.

Can someone please tell me the last multi-cultural and multi-ethnic country that succeeded in peace and prosperity for many generations?It just doesn't look like a winning formula and certainly not for Polish society.

Netherlands, Switzerland, Canada, Britain, Singapore, Australia all do pretty well as does Malaysia ( most of the time). No country, multi or mono cultural, seems to be peaceful for centuries at a time, it's not human nature.

However, in more recent times, the more multi-ethnic and multi-cultural U.S. society becomes, the worse it gets for the citizenry.

Only because the USA tends to treat ethnic groups as second class citizens, the problems there are as much about class as colour or ethnicity, people from ethnic groups are rarely allowed to rise to the top.

I agree with u foreigner4.. We dont need another uk in Poland.
Poles living in Poland dont go this way or our culture will be lost!!!

You are quite happy to sit in Britain reaping the benefits of a society that was built partly (quite a large part) by Asians,Irish, Afro Caribbean, Jewish groups and native British people who are in the main decent enough to tolerate you and give you a much easier ride than you would have in most countries!!!
TheOther 5 | 3,643
8 Jul 2013  #30
can anyone name a single country that lived in peace for generations?

Most countries in Europe, if you don't count colonial wars fought abroad. Three generations since the end of WW2 already.


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