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Why Polish people should be proud of being Polish?


Piast Poland 3 | 182
12 Feb 2011 #271
You're using a very very broad definition of 'Pole' there

It is what he claims to be, so Im assuming its true. Does not sound like one to me though. It sounds more like he has been to Poland 500 years ago.
delphiandomine 88 | 18,455
12 Feb 2011 #272
It would be nice to see Poland with a product or thing that it is renowned for but look at the history. Maybe we would still have FSO that would have developed into a large car manufacturer, but things did not evolve that way because of events.

The problem with heavy industry was that it was more or less polluted with Solidarity members. The same members wanted to retain the Communist benefits (guaranteed job, easy job - they pretend to pay and they pretend to work) while also getting the benefits from the free market - and in the process, they destroyed many businesses through sheer unwillingness to cooperate. FSO very well could have been a player, but their products were poor. After all, the only reason that Skoda has remained on the market was because Volkswagen more or less stepped in and told them exactly what o do.

Hey, Polonius - when were you last in Poland?
Ironside 51 | 11,510
12 Feb 2011 #273
In my case having a go

I didn't meant you of all people :) just deph and Harry the anti-Polish brigade !
However, I reckon that you sometimes seems to be supporting them, well, I could be wrong in this count !
delphiandomine 88 | 18,455
12 Feb 2011 #274
just deph and Harry the anti-Polish brigade !

Uh...we're the ones defending Poland here...
Piast Poland 3 | 182
12 Feb 2011 #275
And that is the story of many Polish companies and much of Polish industry. FSO could have evolved no matter how likely of unlikely, it still would have had a chance at growth and greatness. Same goes for other firms that dissolved around the time. You cant disregard the good that solidarity did though not just for Poland but for the whole region.

And if Polonius3 is so determined not to answer the question, he must be ashamed, just as he is ashamed of Poland. The most logical answer would be that he does not want to lie, but has never been there. Confirming that would make him lose credibility. I really want to know because then everyone could understand his post much better whatever the answer is.
delphiandomine 88 | 18,455
12 Feb 2011 #276
You cant disregard the good that solidarity did though not just for Poland but for the whole region.

During Communist times, they were undeniably doing a great job. But with the dawn of the III RP, they really just lurched from one disaster to another. There's so many industries that were brought to their knees by Solidarity - the example I'm familiar with, Ciegelski in Poznan - has more or less been run into the ground through the unwillingness of the employees (and Solidarity members) to cooperate with any sort of restructuring.

Sad, but true. It's often said that they didn't necessarily want democracy - they just wanted what the Communists had for themselves.
Polonius3 1,000 | 12,446
12 Feb 2011 #277
FSO indeed could have developed differently. A Ukrainian state compny bought it out and is assmebling Chevy Aveos there until March or April. After that???????????

Why couldn't some Kulcyzk or Guzdowaty bought it? Or maybe a mixed private/public capital consortium that would have taken part in major privatisation tenders ratehr than selling everything off to foreign interests.

Various options might have been possible. GM took over Daewoo is with only minor changes began turning out many of the same models: Matiz (rebadged Spark), Lacetti, etc.

My take on this is that each level of privatisaiton and development, there were mainly people looking out only for themselves -- grab as much as possible for their own personal careers, without any sweeping vision of how to do the country proud or upgrade the Polish image. Narrow self-ionterest reigned supreme, whislt civic virtue was nojn-existent.

That's why the Kulczyks preferred foreign investments for their millions, and no-one ever even raised the possibility of a Polish capital consortium.
Please don't reduce this ad absurdam. I don't mean FSO could ever compete with VW or BMW, but it might have found a niche for itself. There is a huge world demand mark for a low-priced, basic, low-tech Third World vehicle for use in difficult terrain for those who couldn't possibly afford a Landrover or Cherokee. That could have been a design priority for the Polish motor sector. (Think Tata Nano.)

The SEAT is a decent motorcar but it started out as a humble Spanish-built Fiat which was developed and finally got added to the VW stable. But India's Hindustan Ambassador, which started out as a 1954 Morris, has been produced basically unchanged since then and still is the last I heard. The black London taxis don't exactly win the Monte Carlo Rally, but it fills a definite niche. The Polish motor industry lost its chance, and now all this is pure fantasy about what might have been.

If some Teh Urkainian
jonni 16 | 2,485
12 Feb 2011 #278
I don't mean FSO could ever compete with VW or BMW, but it might have found a niche for itself.

This I agree with. Those cars actually had some plus points and it's a shame that whenever I pass the factory in Żerań it looks mostly closed.

The black London taxis don't exactly win the Monte Carlo Rally, but it fills a definite niche.

And then foreign competitors started to make more affordable versions - Polish business was perhaps clever enough to anticipate this sort of thing happening. One issue in all of this is that Poland shook off communism at a time when industrial production was switching to the far east.
Ironside 51 | 11,510
12 Feb 2011 #279
My take on this is that each level of privatisaiton and development, there were mainly people looking out only for themselves -- grab as much as possible for their own personal careers, without any sweeping vision of how to do the country proud or upgrade the Polish image. Narrow self-ionterest reigned supreme, whislt civic virtue was nojn-existent.

Yep! Who says that one need to visit the country to have a good grasp on some issues!?
Harry
12 Feb 2011 #280
Hmm, people who aren't plastic Poles?
Ironside 51 | 11,510
12 Feb 2011 #281
By your own admission, you are only polish while polishing your nob, so what give you right to determine who is Polish and who's not? Imagine the cheek of it!
delphiandomine 88 | 18,455
12 Feb 2011 #282
Why couldn't some Kulcyzk or Guzdowaty bought it? Or maybe a mixed private/public capital consortium that would have taken part in major privatisation tenders ratehr than selling everything off to foreign interests.

Kulcyzk wouldn't want to get involved with any former state owned enterprise unless the workers were sacked first. As for a consortium - where was the money coming from for Poland to invest in modernising car factories? The private sector wouldn't get involved unless there was a guaranteed return, and the State had no money to pay for modernising factories without sacking all of the militants first.

The atttude of Solidarność very much killed a lot of Polish industry.
puella 4 | 172
12 Feb 2011 #283
The masters of distortion have again tried to read into a statement something that wasn't there.

Well it has always been like that. Not only now as you already noticed.

...................................................................... ......................

I know! I know! CALL OF JUAREZ! Isn't it the international hit? ;)

Apple

Steve Woźniak :)

But then again, what would you know about Polish products, seeing as you won't answer the question about when you were last here?

Clothing companies for instance.
Polonius3 1,000 | 12,446
12 Feb 2011 #284
The Soldiarity experience was unique in that steelworekrs, students, priests, farmers, hairdressers, taxi drivers, intellectuals, etc. all joined forces against PZPR rule. But once communism got toppled, it was ervery man for hismelf. The hard-nose Balcertites wanted to sell off Polish industry to foreign interests for nice, fat kickbacks, and the populist 'S' trade unionists were only after wage rises -- an insoluble dilemma. Hardly anyone was able to find a viable compromise. Again self-inerest had reared its ugly head. To the detrimetnof all concerned.

One episode does come to mind. PolAm millionnairess Barbara Piasecka Johnson offered to buy a Polish shipyard if the workers agreed to work for 50¢ an hour. If I recall, they did but some how the scheme fell through. Years later she admitted it had been a political ploy in cahoots with Wałęsa to score points v the red regime.

It's a crying shame about the shipyards and Cegielski, FSO and Ursus. When I was there 12 or 15 years ago, it was heart-breaking to see the buildings of the once flourishing tractor-maker boarded up and the grounds strewn with rubble and rusting machinery and overgrown with weeds. Was there really no way of saving it? Why didn't someone think of making a low-cost, basic tractor for emerging Third World markets. But again workers and management would have had to agree to low pay to get things going -- something impossible when the only motivation is the pay packet, bonuses and assorted perks.

That is where the Orientals are superior -- they are able to submit to discipline for the higehr good, do without for a time, and look where it has got Japan, Taiwan, Korea and China. They all started out verrry modestly.
Marek11111 9 | 816
12 Feb 2011 #285
maybe we can start a Employee ownership company that everyone has a stake and share of profits. making a car that is running on compress air be a good start
jonni 16 | 2,485
12 Feb 2011 #286
When I was there 12 or 15 years ago

Wow

it was heart-breaking to see the buildings of the once flourishing tractor-maker boarded up and the grounds strewn with rubble and rusting machinery and overgrown with weeds.

I agree very strongly with this. Since industrial use wasn't going to happen I always thought it should be used for residential/commercial use. It would also be a great place for the new national stadium, instead of being so near the centre. Last thing I heard, though, there is going to be redevelopment there.

Why didn't someone think of making a low-cost, basic tractor for emerging Third World markets.

As far as I know this exists. It is a Polish/Indian joint venture.
Bratwurst Boy 12 | 11,676
12 Feb 2011 #287
It's a crying shame about the shipyards and Cegielski, FSO and Ursus. When I was there 12 or 15 years ago, it was heart-breaking to see the buildings of the once flourishing tractor-maker boarded up and the grounds strewn with rubble and rusting machinery and overgrown with weeds. Was there really no way of saving it?

As the communist regimes were totally broke and all this "flourishing" had been on the backs of the freedoms of the people....no...there hadn't.

Nobody said growing up, facing reality and rebuilding your country on firm, serious footing is easy.

Poland is on a good way, your constant overhyping of a skewed image of a long gone past blinds you for the already achieved real progress and for a real bright, proud future.

As a real patriot you should always have the best for your people in mind...not some unrealistic image of it!
puella 4 | 172
12 Feb 2011 #288
I have a very realistic opinion of today's imitative and uncreative Poland. I But I am patient. I am still waiting for something Polish to be higlighted by CNN, Sky News, the Beeb, Newsweek, Spiegel, Paris Match, fashion boutiques, maybe at the Geneva Auto Show. Wherever! But for God's sake, do come up with something original at long last!!!

In Sky News? Only if there would be some riots in Poland like in Egipt.

If you want art or culture there were some nice things during recent years. For instance really original nominated for Oscars in 2009 documentary movie Rabbit à la Berlin, have you watched it?
alexw68
12 Feb 2011 #289
Do you know of one, only one such thing? Such thinking should occupy the hearts and minds of true Polsih patriots.

If your first and fourth conditions weren't mutually exclusive, a true Polish patriot might be inclined to bother.
Ironside 51 | 11,510
12 Feb 2011 #290
it was heart-breaking to see the buildings of the once flourishing tractor-maker boarded up and the grounds strewn with rubble and rusting machinery and overgrown with weeds.

Yeah !

here is going to be redevelopment there.

Maybe, but given the right policy and some incentive Poland could be a great food producer, like ecological food, juices, fruits, meat, milk, flowers, essences, mead, sugar .... and all around a food production industry, not to mention flour mills, bakery's and all connect services. Plenty of potential development - nobody cared about it, scoring any initiatives!

The same goes for industry, could be a pretty strong if given right organization and people to manage it, unfortunately politics and politicians in Poland have been tainted by commies, secret services and ******** !
puella 4 | 172
12 Feb 2011 #291
If your first and fourth conditions weren't mutually exclusive, a true Polish patriot might be inclined to bother.

Kapela ze Wsi Warszawa would be a great example here and Alex already gave it to you. (it connects tradition, original form and is world famous - was even nominated for Grammy)

There are many internationally acclaimed artists (not necessarly orginal ones but you can't have both if you want to sell art).
rabidbavib - | 20
12 Feb 2011 #292
Things the poles CAN be proud of. ( polonass these dont fit your format, therefore poles cant be allowed to be proud)

A free national health system.
free good education. including exellent free unis.
internationally accepted as a hard working well educated workforce.
speed of construction and reconstruction of the entire country with bugger all money (you have to see it to believe it)
upward asparations not like in da hood.
strong family values.
alexw68
12 Feb 2011 #293
We all forgot Behemoth!!!

P3, despite your outward appearance as a pedantic drone we quietly suspect that 200-watt Marshall stacks and the studded leather thing would have an immediate, visceral appeal for you. Even if they don't this is a band that's making headway Stateside (subject to the singer's health - get well soon, Nergal)
enkidu 7 | 623
12 Feb 2011 #294
If you discount those who dislike the crook & conman Don & Bron Show

You mean of course the Prime Minister of the Republic of Poland an it's legally elected government?

then what about those who spoke of Kaczory, kaczyzm, kurduple, karły, kartofle, etc.?

You mean a former President of Poland and his brother - former Prime Minister?

Patriotism is all about love and respect for one's country.
You show no respect nor love. You are just a castaway.

You are a kundel, sir.
Bratwurst Boy 12 | 11,676
12 Feb 2011 #295
So...now I have to ask...what is a "kundel"? And can I eat it???
jablko - | 106
12 Feb 2011 #296
"kundel"

mongrel

And can I eat it???

sure, korea style
jonni 16 | 2,485
12 Feb 2011 #297
So...now I have to ask...what is a "kundel"? And can I eat it???

I always assumed the word was of German origin. It means a mongrel dog. Personally I prefer mongrels to pedigree dogs.

And yes, you can eat one. Though it might not taste so good.
alexw68
12 Feb 2011 #299
AK - your extraordinary ability to find the citation juste worries me sometimes :)
Polonius3 1,000 | 12,446
12 Feb 2011 #300
Internationally acclaimed as haivng been created/invented in Poland and universally known as such. Put more simply, a unique Polish creation in whatever field gains worldwide-wide acceptance and appeal..

BTW, anyone interested might do well to check out the number of patents by country. It will be eye-opening.


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