The right to own guns: would you support such legislation in Poland?

Should we fix something that isn't broken? I mean, look at the number of shooting incidents in Poland, and then compare the number of such incidents to what's going down in America on a daily basis. And of course I'm talking percentual here.

:)

That runs contrary to what people like Patrick Henry, John Adams, Jefferson, etc wrote about long before Shays Rebellion.

Nonetheless, it's there, and we like 'em in the US.

Probably ain't going to happen over here. We'll see how the attitude changes as things slip further...


Are you looking at the last year, the last 20, or the last 100? Some interesting things went on in the 40s, one side had all the guns, and the other side was getting shot.


No I won't. That's between you and your soon to be Dutch stalker.

Ok. Granted, P-Land doesn't have the same demographics as us and therefore doesn't have the same issues to deal with -no Injuns or homies to defend against. I'll give you that. But hasn't it been overrun so many times through the years that peeps would like to be able to defend it themselves should the need arise again? If our history were Poland's history there is no way I wouldn't keep personal weapons on hand, no matter what the law said.

Or would they prefer Crow's rollover and surrender mindset?...

Recent history please. (Or we could discuss Napoleon if you like.)

;)


Times have changed since the founding fathers. In their time, people equipped with rifles and guns were almost as effective as the soldiers of their time. (It didn't take much hardware and training back then.) Tactics have changed. Weapons have changed. For example, do you honestly think that 50.000 civilians with a gun will stand a chance against 1 batallion of special forces during nighttime? Or that these civilians will even get their chance to shoot at something which even looks like a soldier remotely when a couple of dirty-bombs are being dropped on them?

Guns these days may make a difference in the desert, but when people in a country like America ever have the displeasure of experiencing a tyrannical government which decides to come down on its own citizens, it simply means you guys are pretty much f*cked. Sorry.

:)

TIMES are changing!!
how about a Little news from boston last year:

faciamus.blogspot.com/2009/04/assault-rifle-confiscation-resisted-by.html

pasted from the paper:"the local citizenry blamed government forces rather than the extremists for the civilian deaths. Before order could be restored, armed citizens from surrounding areas had descended upon the guard units. Colonel Francis Smith, finding his forces overmatched by the armed mob, ordered a retreat".

very sad that so many man were killed!!.( national guards and civilian) plus 200 injured!!!

Sweet! Hehehe...

Although the whole lengthy video is informative, you might click in at about the 27
youtube.com/watch?v=U2yhn80mR5k

minute mark to the 31st minute. You'll find out why your claim is wrong.

F -stop you misinterpret the US Constitution. Europe's Political tradition is that the King rules from divine right and all citizens are subjects of the King. In modern days we can substitute the King for modern Governments. The United States doesn't have this tradition. America is about individual responsibilities, in other words the citizenry is responsible for the government. That's where the Second Amendment comes from and all the other Bill of Rights.

That was my intent, AJ :)


Yeah, cleaning toilets and picking strawberries 12 hours a day. For good money, in the situation.

Just yesterday I stumbled accidentally on the info that 37% of Poles live below the poverty line. This is true 'in a way', the way being that Western standards are being applied to Eastern reality. What in Poland is 'struggling along', in the West is 'utter poverty'. Those people will not risk imprisonment just to put more, or better, meat on their tables, or to get plasma instead of an old dad's TV.

It's been checked in practice, and I refer to the ridiculously easy access to firearms while our best-friends-in-the-world were leaving for home. You could get anything, starting with a sh1tty police handgun, through vintage Parabellum and up to AK47, all with with ammo, on your local market, for a surprisingly moderate price. Without dodgy contacts, all you needed was to look a sufficiently 'decent bloke', and to hint on a bit more serious interest in 'proper stuff'. People who had enough money to eat dumplings and cabbage everyday could easily afford it - yet they didn't. Those who had some cash to waste, and liked the idea, did it just for the sake of it, and then kept their guns cunningly hidden.

There was a meaningful increase in gun crime at this time, easy to predict. From zero to something. Surprisingly again, this something was like non-existent, actually. Except for the sudden rise of organised crime, but even they didn't use firearms much, while it was sufficient to smash the landlords windows now and then, or burn the door. Not too much, he was supposed to run the business and pay for protection, not to go bust overnight.

And the organised crime was due to corrupt police, rather, than anything else. The perfect example was in Katowice, where nearly all the small businesses had to pay racket money until a team of 'paratroopers' were sent from Warsaw and finished the grand mafia off in months. They didn't care much for drug dealing, different business, so the very centre of the city was a desert place after 10pm still, ordinary folks scurrying through now and then in haste to avoid half-sane potheads with dirty syringes in hand.

As you noticed yourself, people prefer to do ****** jobs than to rob tills in local shops. May seem strange, but it's true. And seems there's no tradition of gun-crime in Poland, it's, like, impractical. It's much more reasonable to hit the mark with a gas-pipe from behind and walk away with a wallet, than to risk noise and commotion with a gun. Small profit, good turnover, and you can live from balanga to balanga.

Long post, sorry, but it like wrote itself.

I don't mind. You've raised a few interesting points, but I could raise another point to your point aswell. If it's truly so easy to obtain a gun in Poland, then the majority of people obviously doesn't feel the need to own one. Therefore, one could wonder about the necessity of guns in Poland.

;)

I'd say quite a lot of people do have guns, yet majority of them don't really want to use them. One reason being, that if you threaten a burglar with an illegal gun, you risk a hefty sentence for possession, and the burglar gets away with having to bear witness. Similar reason being, if you shoot a burglar with a legal weapon, you go through years of trials, and you can still end up in prison, for 'excessive defence not appropriate to the threat'. This is a well known, widely ridiculed law in Poland, lot's of examples.

There was a series of robberies of taxi-drivers, sometimes ending with murders. So they allowed the taxi drivers to keep gas-pistols (!) in the cab, but there was a regulation, that yes, you can defend yourself, only the means used must not be more dangerous than what the attacker uses. He got a knife, you can use a sharp implement. He got a baseball bat, you can use a wrench, and so on. He mugs or strangles you with bare hands, you can not use a tool, regardless of body size comparison. He strangles you with a string from behind, hmm... And, in general, by the nature of the location you wouldn't use a gas-pistol, of course..


Everyday necessity not exactly, I'd agree. If you can put up with being mugged at your own door for money, or with watching how a laughing car thief breaks in your car and happily drives away. That's what the quoted video says about. Nobody cares how many crimes are being stopped by the sheer presence of a gun.

The criminals will own a guns. No matter what.
The law-abiding citizens shall own a guns too.
It's a matter of the balance of power.

true story: it was a provocation, and it wasn't about rifles but about cannon suppled by the French !


I back it up!

Crazy guy stabs you in the back or shoots you in the back..you have no chance...or just make that "random" move as you look on and you are not expecting..you have no chance...


I have the same argument year after year with my brothers about the tooth fairy, if they tell me one more time it was my parents putting cash under my pillow I may just try and get a gun!


5% too many if you ask me, but I did note that there are a lot of Americans living in CZ these days..are they counted if they are classed as citizens..Im not accusing, just asking?


Why? Ive been visiting for over 10 years and never felt threatened but I might now knowing you're walking about armed!


Nah...You know that your hardon will wilt if we do :D


Phuck off prick only one person on this forum can use that term and it isnt you!

Yea, but he came in screaming...


I would shoot you in Prague if you threatened me or anyone around you, as would plenty of Czechs.


Not many Americans own guns in CZ, I don't know of any that do, and I know a bunch of 'mericans.


There are lots of us walking around armed, seriously, I'm not making this up!


ah, wilt, wilt, wilt... It's getting close to bedtime..

Oh pleezzze...Europeans are (or at least the English) more reserved...We dont come at people screaming..God for bid we should we'd be so undignified whilst commiting such heinious acts, we're more sneakers than screamers...We leave dramics for the stage "darling"


Because of the tooth fairy? Thats a bit drastic..now do you see what I mean about gun owership? People feel they are slightly more enpowered and above the law than they should be...By the way what are you ideas on the tooth fairy? Real, not real?


Thank goodness for small mercies! About the gun ownership, not the amount of Yanks in my fav country :(


Then you are just adding to the problem


That's strange all men Ive dated get more exited the closer it gets to bed time!

Well, of course.. look who they're about to rub noses with..

I can do what I want get used to it...

In this case, was a screamer...


Above the law to defend your life? Would you suggest just sitting back and seeing what the insane screaming man waving the knife and gun wanted?


Can't deny, lots of private ownership in the Czech Republic, and quite a few of us carry. In fact, next time you're in town, let me know, we can go to Kladno and "pop off a few rounds"...


Personally, I enjoy emptying my clip anytime of day. But alas, it's difficult to go to sleep all worked up.

But all in all, considering the disparate laws in Europe regarding gun ownership, I don't think there is a single European perspective on the topic.At least, not yet..

Moi! :D Obviously I was always too knakcered after slaving away doing the cooking and cleaning and the extra naggin...Its the extra naggin that does it ya know!


Orrr....I was waiting for the "its my party and I'll cry if I want to" line! You're such a girl arent you?


Then he should have screamed back, shock tactics are proven to work.


In all my life Ive never been in that situation, but Ive been careful where I go...I lived in a not so nice area and didnt go out after dark, where I live now I can go where ever I want when ever I want..


Rather a beer at U Vejvodů (its almost my local) but I wont eat those pretzels, I swear they've been there for as long as Ive been going in! (the same ones!)...


Personally Im not gonna tell you what I prefer ;0)

No, you belittle yourself, yesterday you went out and bought a present for a young girl you have never met and showed a wonderful side to your personality, now you behave like a market trader with no class. We know you are a decent person Amathyst, lighten up

Who knows what happened, but I'm fairly sure there were screams, crying, yelling, etc while these two were being shot and stabbed.


It's sad to have to put up with being kept in your home after dark :( . Good that you live somewhere safe now. Here in Poland, guns are difficult to get a hold of, but people still end up dead...often actually! Anyway, my Krav Maga and Muay Thai courses are going well. It's pretty popular over here, people beat the bejesus out of each other, and sometimes people die :(


Pfft, there's Zizkov, the rest of Prague...yea, pfft!

And you showed you have no class because it took you several lines of insults to come to this? Am I supposed to be grateful because some random newbie thinks Im okay? Thats funny :D


I did Judo to blue belt - my fathers choice that I get some skills in this department, plus my uncle taught at the time...so from the age of 9 I was a ninja :) or not quite, but I had self-defence skills..which my brothers didnt hmmm :D


Actually my fav bar is on the castle side, just up a little side street, there's a church at the end of the road..my name must be on the walls a million times in there!

So I'll run with this. Is it ok to kill people without guns in Poland vs killing people with guns in, say, the Czech Republic? What if that stats point to the equal amount of homicides? Would you rethink your position?

Another point: First you say that a lot of people are afraid to use their guns even if it was legal to own one, because of certain laws in regard to self-defense, and then you say..


If that was the truth, then America would have the lowest crime rates ever, but it seems that reality proves otherwise? Anyway, if people aren't going to use their guns because of these laws, then I really don't see why guns should be legislated in Poland.


..and this is probably why guns should be banned from society.

;)

Amathyst, now who is behaving like "its my party and I'll cry if I want to" As I previously mentioned, I have seen your good side, I don't buy the antagonistic element, but I understand the life we endure, paves our future reactions.

Come on now, it depends on who has the gun...


Because homicide rates are as low as in Poland, and yet the people still have the right to defend themselves? Seriously, if someone else were to threaten your life, you wouldn't be grateful if I were to shoot that person and therefore save your life?

In the US. In Poland there's precious little of preventing crime with guns. As I said, for reasons.


murders:
nationmaster.com/graph/cri_mur_percap-crime-murders-per-capita

#20 Poland: 0.0562789 per 1,000 people
#24 United States: 0.042802 per 1,000 people

So it's 30% more, per head. In Poland.

Crime level in Poland is rather high, and much of it goes unreported. You report only grave incidents, and what is related to insurance, or when you loose your ID. Otherwise you just don't bother, it's waste of time. Even if your wallet goes with the ID in it, you don't rush, as decent thieves send your ID back. Seriously.


One goes with another, don't you think? Possession and right to use. Situation in Poland is ridiculous. If they make concealed guns legal, but ban pulling a gun, then there's not much point in the first law, like. Most likely you just loose your gun in the event.

@ convex and Amathyst:

murders:
#41 Czech Republic: 0.0169905 per 1,000 people
30% of the Polish murder rate.

assault victims:
nationmaster.com/graph/cri_ass_vic-crime-assault-victims

#2 United Kingdom: 2.8%
#9 United States: 1.2%
#12 Poland: 1.1%
#20 Japan: 0.1%

Only 20 positions shown, no Czech Republic.

Do you remember certain schools?


They already have the right to defend themselves, just not with a gun.


I can take care of myself, and have been threatened a couple of times before. (Which is actually an understatement.)


Interesting, I suppose that is news for me. In the last figures I've seen England, Holland and France were the most violent countries in Europe, but now it seems my country is one of the most peaceful ones. Cool.


You know, people should really drop that passive stance. If people would report it more often, then I'm sure the alarms will go off in the upper echelons of your society, because I'm sure they want to save their faces when it comes to international affairs. So if people were to report everything for a change, who knows your government might actually decide to expand the police force?


Well, atleast some thieves have morals.

xD


No, I really think that a better equipped and stronger police force will be a better solution than gun possession, especially since the murder rate is already so high according to the statistics you've provided. Don't you think that the murder rate will only go up when you introduce the right to use guns to Poland?

:S

Either you missed this link in my post #168
press.uchicago.edu/Misc/Chicago/493636.html
("States with the largest increases in gun ownership also have the largest drops in violent crimes") or some things just don't register with people who base their decisions on 'feelings' instead of facts.

Almost every society has had to check the power of BigGovernment which inherently takes, takes, takes while depriving rights of the people.

"When the people fear their government, there is tyranny; when the government fears the people, there is liberty." ............................Thomas Jefferson