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The right to own guns: would you support such legislation in Poland?


A J 4 | 1,088
23 Oct 2010 #211
Either you missed this link in my post #168

Yup, I missed it. (Murder rates in my country are lower, so how do you explain that??)

"When the people fear their government, there is tyranny; when the government fears the people, there is liberty."

Protests might work aswell sometimes. (Depending on the number of people.)

;)
ZIMMY 6 | 1,601
23 Oct 2010 #212
youtube.com/watch?v=tkAbWfI7Hsw
nott 3 | 594
23 Oct 2010 #213
convex: Come on now, it depends on who has the gun...

Do you remember certain schools?

I remember one school, where the teacher had a gun too. Short story, not worth the first pages.

nott: Crime level in Poland is rather high, and much of it goes unreported.

You know, people should really drop that passive stance. If people would report it more often, then I'm sure the alarms will go off in the upper echelons of your society,

People acquired this passive stance, because the upper echelons didn't give a fck. This is a different country, AJ. The upper echelons were born and bred in this country, they know perfectly well what's going on.

Well, atleast some thieves have morals. xD

Hard to believe, innit :)

My neighbour visited a 'bad quarter', popped in a shop, and left her purse lying on the counter while packing goods. A teenager grabbed her purse and darted away. She run out of the shop and shouted 'Jee, moja taszaaa!'(*). A short while after the boy appeared from behind the corner, approached her slowly with a troubled face, and said 'jo wos bardzo przeproszom, jo żech myśloł, że wyście som gorolka...'(**). And gave her the purse back.

(*) 'Geee, my puuurse!!!' (Silesian)
(**) 'I am very sorry, madam, I thought you were from central Poland...' (Silesian)

Authentic. It pays to speak the local language :)

nott: One goes with another, don't you think? Possession and right to use.

No, I really think that a better equipped and stronger police force will be a better solution than gun possession, especially since the murder rate is already so high according to the statistics you've provided.

Why not both, like the Czechs have? Mind you, the best equipped police are never where you need them. Criminals have devious, uncooperative minds, and they choose times and places devoid of uniformed law enforcers. I'd have not much beef with them if they cared to inform the other interested parts beforehand.

Don't you think that the murder rate will only go up when you introduce the right to use guns to Poland?

And why should it. I do not advocate the right to commit murders with firearms. The criminals already have what they need anyway.
A J 4 | 1,088
23 Oct 2010 #214
Because it's much easier to take out a bully who doesn't want to get out of your way with a gun than it will be with your fists?

;)
nott 3 | 594
23 Oct 2010 #215
Right, easier. So bullies will die out, you say, and the heroes who put them down will end up in strict prison for life. Society will be cleared of extreme elements and everybody left standing will happily live long for ever since.

What you talking about, AJ :)
Geronimo - | 4
30 Oct 2010 #216
For me life in Poland can be stressfull enough without dresiarze having easy access to guns. A kibole?(the football hooligans).
peterweg 37 | 2,320
31 Oct 2010 #217
murders:

Amazingly enough, the murder rate for pland went down over 80% the following year.

Yes, the murder rate in Nationmasters figures for Poland is FIVE times the rate it has been in every year since.

The truth is nationmasters have made a factual error on the statistics for Poland.

Their own figures say there were 716 murders. Thats a figure of 0.0179 per 1000, not 0.0562789.
jamesams1357 - | 35
31 Oct 2010 #218
So all you people from the UK, if someone brakes into your house, you better rub in some lube and lay the **** down
Ogien 6 | 245
31 Oct 2010 #219
Thank goodness I live in America where I'm allowed to own a firearm. So many stupid Europeans posting here.
jamesams1357 - | 35
31 Oct 2010 #220
Maybe you like getting robbed uk but in America we don't play that $h!+ . You think twice before robbing someone here.
ender 5 | 398
31 Oct 2010 #221
Dear nott here is math lesson for you:

So it's 30% more, per head. In Poland.

Amazingly enough

US population: 310,592,000 / murders: 16,204; murder per 1000: 16,204/310,592=

0.052

Rzeczypospolita (Poland) population: 38,169,329 / murders: 716; murder per 1000: 716/38,169=

0.019

Czech population: 10,512,397 / murders: 234; murder per 1000: 234/10,512=

0.022

You Americans should leave statistic to someone who knows the math.
jamesams1357 - | 35
31 Oct 2010 #222
when i was about 7 i got my first .22,now a have AR-15
convex 20 | 3,978
31 Oct 2010 #223
Maybe you like getting robbed uk but in America we don't play that $h!+ . You think twice before robbing someone here.

But yet it still happens in the US, and at a rate higher then European countries.

You Americans should leave statistic to someone who knows the math.

So in gun free Poland, the homicide rate is nearly identical to liberal gun law Czech Republic where anyone can buy and carry (and quite a few do)?
nott 3 | 594
31 Oct 2010 #224
Dear nott here is math lesson for you:

I know my math, thank you :) My mistake was to take the data in good faith instead of checking them against other pages. I might've expected differences like 10% at most, coming from mixing data from different years, but what is there calls for justice to Heavens.

Now, I took the effort to recalculate the per capita, using absolute number of murders and populations from the site. I took a choice of countries, which is Europe (except for some post-Yugoslavian countries, for which there's no data on murders) and countries rooted in Europe, like Canada etc.

First, errors:
1. Poland, 202% error, Switzerland -67% error. 14 countries with absolute error >=5%.
2. Albania, Nepal, Sweden, Belgium, Austria missing from the 'per capita' list, despite their rank.

The 'per capita' list from this site is useless.

Now, assuming that absolute numbers are correct, and taking the numbers of murders and population data, I got an interesting result. The definite winner in the competition is the post-USSR, with #1 Russia sporting 0.205 murders per 1000 people, #2 Estonia with 0.109, and Moldova, the least murderous in this group, with 0.079. Then comes the USA, with 0.053, and then the mix of Western Europe and the former Eastern Bloc, starting with Albania (0.049), Bulgaria (0.046) and Switzerland (0.028), and ending with Spain and Germany (both 0.012) through Italy, Norway, Denmark, Netherlands, Ireland, down to Austria, Greece (both 0.008). The Eastern Bloc is mostly on higher positions here.

To make it short - legal gun ownership has much smaller impact on the number of murders than cultural and social factors, and comparing the laws with victims per head gives no meaningful conclusions, unless we keep it in well defined groups. 'Well defined' here means 'I think it'll be all right'.

Edit:
Thus, similar position of the Czech Republic and Poland makes you think, innit. Czech Republic 0.023, Poland 0.019. The UK 0.020.
ZIMMY 6 | 1,601
31 Oct 2010 #225
Ah yes, comparing murder rates is really "a tale of two cities " as Charles Dickens would say or in this juxtaposition, 'a tale of two societies'.

Who actually does the killing? It is 'politically incorrect' to fully explain this but of course I will.
Black Americans are 12.5% of the U.S. population but for the past several decades have been responsible for 50% of all murders. This is not an indictment on skin color or any of that racist nonsense. It is more an accusation against the nanny state with its dependency policies which have ruined Black families.

Since the 1960's the U.S. government in its 'wisdom' has sought to be big brother thus wasting trillions of dollars in programs that undercut the economy. These demeaning welfare programs perpetuated dependency and ironically more poverty.

Excluding minority crime, the murder rate in the U.S. is easily comparable to that of the so-called enlightened European states. As one of my links above shows I(#211), gun ownership prevents crime. Anti gun advocates fail the critical thinking test and are easily swept up with knee-jerk 'feelings' about this [gun] and other issues.
nott 3 | 594
31 Oct 2010 #226
As one of my links above shows I(#211), gun ownership prevents crime.

Seems Mr Lott has a better approach than me, researching data about the impact of legalising guns on crime rates in particular locations.

I just wasted half of my Sunday comparing gun ownership (this time estimated real, instead of legal) with murder rates in Europena(and like) countries, and my conclusions are like in my previous post. No relation, even in intuitively similar groups of states.

I got one impressive graph though, comparing guns per head to murders per gun :)

mediafire.com/?ord7r7d7xbfmk7s
ZIMMY 6 | 1,601
20 Nov 2010 #227
Excellent animation but for those who prefer to skip the full assembly, I recommend viewing this from about the 3:20 minute point. Of course, all of it is good and the beauty of the Colt .45/ 1911 is there in all its naked beauty.

youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=E6SmlOEzNBs
Chicago Pollock 7 | 504
20 Nov 2010 #228
Just look what's going on in Mexico. The Narco's have guns the people don't. The people are lambs at the slaughter.
OP Matt32 4 | 83
2 Jan 2011 #229
Yup! Guns are cool !

really !

d

and nit :)

harmless really
sweet
Ashleys mind 3 | 455
2 Jan 2011 #230
The Poles would only use them to invade Ukraine and take back Lwow. ;P

But srsly, why the hell allow guns at this point in history? They have historically served a purpose for military reasons, to a lesser extent for self defense, and to an even smaller degree for hunting.

Hunters can already obtain rifles. And I think we have the police and the army for the rest?
ZIMMY 6 | 1,601
2 Jan 2011 #231
he Poles would only use them to invade Ukraine and take back Lwow. ;P

So? What's the problem? :)

hy the hell allow guns at this point in history?

Allowed by who? People have a right to own guns in a democracy

Governments' inherently grow their power; it's in the nature of large entities, especially ones that govern. We have seen the result in Nazi Germany, the Soviet Union, and unfortunately in many other places. Hitler immediately banned gun ownership by individuals, so did Stalin and so do modern dictators like Castro. No need to ask why now do we?

This bears repeating: "When the people fear their government, there is tyranny; when the government fears the people, there is liberty." ............................Thomas Jefferson
Ogien 6 | 245
3 Jan 2011 #232
Zimmy, there's no use in arguing with these idiots.

Just recently there was a story in Houston about a couple in a hotel who were almost robbed and possibly killed. Three men barged into their room. The husband had a shotgun and killed one of the guys while the others ran away. Who knows what would've happened to the victims if they didn't have a firearm...

I'm glad to be living in the USA. :-)
Wroclaw Boy
3 Jan 2011 #233
This bears repeating: "When the people fear their government, there is tyranny; when the government fears the people, there is liberty." ............................Thomas Jefferson

Thats bull crap, citizens carrying guns is not much more than an annoying side effect for the government. If they wish to take control they'll find alternative methods.

Who knows what would've happened to the victims if they didn't have a firearm...

You will always find stories such as this, its a no brainer.

Guns are wrong the right to own guns is a bad decision its just so obvious. I would love to own a gun really. But i wouldnt like anybody else to have one.
Ogien 6 | 245
3 Jan 2011 #234
No it is not obvious at all. Stop making ignorant posts.
Ashleys mind 3 | 455
3 Jan 2011 #235
Ok, well democracy is one thing, the United States is another... Let's not mix the two up in this discussion. ;) You can have perfectly good democracy without "lowering gun crime with guns??" If that's what you're professing...

By the way, are there ample laws to protect the rights of the citizen to use their hand gun in this instance? And are there enough cases where people doing it have in fact been "let off" for having killed in self defense? (I bet you got good lawyers over there.)

Could these situations have been handled some other way?

In any case you can probably find sufficient evidence to justify gun ownership in your country (no doubt both sides could!) but let's leave it at that. Why introduce them to Poland? I think Poland has managed to arrive at democracy without them? And don't tell me that If you wanted to take a world leader out - you couldn't find a gun to do it in any country. Cause I guess shooting Presidents is your brand of democracy as well...? History suggests...

You don't fight politics with guns you fight it with democracy... if you're saying the two are inseparable then I would disagree, but in your case I can see where you're coming from.

The equal right to bear arms should be extended to other equalities... Cause all's I can see is folk using them on each other.

Anyways, in the words of Metal:

Please don't post music videos at random in the main forums. There are threads in off topic for this purpose.
Babinich 1 | 455
3 Jan 2011 #236
Ok, well democracy is one thing, the United States is another...

That's right: the United States is supposed to be a Republic and not a Democracy.

~~~

The equal right to bear arms should be extended to other equalities...

Interesting... Please bring to light these so called equalities you want guaranteed as rights.

~~~

Murder rates in my country are lower, so how do you explain that??

Why are the USA's rates higher? The Great Society...

The USA has to get back to its roots: Life is full of aspirations but rights are limited to the pursuit, not the guarantee, of happiness.
ZIMMY 6 | 1,601
3 Jan 2011 #237
Zimmy, there's no use in arguing with these idiots.

I know. They fail the 'big picture' test.
Ashleys mind 3 | 455
3 Jan 2011 #238
Your big picture is your history and that's it. I'm not going to discuss America (again.) I want you to justify how the *success* of gun ownership in the States can be readily transferred to a country like Poland? Why should it? And how would it be implemented, legislated and regulated?

Thank you.

There is a reason we always end up conversing about America.
Wroclaw Boy
3 Jan 2011 #239
I know. They fail the 'big picture' test.

and what might that be?

This is what i see as uses for owning guns:

1. hunting
2. protection/security
3. pass time/recreation

What others in the big picture are there?
Ashleys mind 3 | 455
3 Jan 2011 #240
They fail the 'big picture' test.

That you "got yourself in a mess" ;)


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