The right to own guns: would you support such legislation in Poland?

Red herring. Lame. The couple million members of the NRA hardly account for the 80% of Americans who cherish their Constitutional right to bear arms.

Don't know, Katrina and what's going on along the border make a pretty good case that the government can't adequately protect it's citizens. Crime is still on the rise even though the number of guns in the US is fairly stagnant. That would point to the police not being able to do their job for whatever reason. Those exact same people that you're trusting to provide you with the last line of defense to protect you and your loved ones. Would be interesting to hear from older Poles (WW2 survivors) and hear what their opinions are.

I don't oppose background checks. You and Stu seem incapable of grasping the fact that cultures raised by single parents are the problem (once again, not all). That's why I pointed out the murders within a segment of the community. That's the root problem not the inanimate gun.


It's never too late to get out.



Automobiles mean that people die in car accidents. If you are so concerned about deaths than using your 'logic' we should ban automobiles. Feel free to look up the deaths and injuries on your own.

Men die building highrises, they should be banned. etc.


That may very well be the bottom line.

Jee ... talking about simple reasoning. This pretty much beats everything. Come on, TZ, don't let people think you are a complete pea-brain. Try to keep up appearances at least. You didn't come with any argument whatsoever with regards to your contention that fire arm ownership has no relation to fire arm deaths. The only thing you could come up with is this ridiculous comparison between fire arms and cars. Give me a break!


Come on ... don't be stupid. Inanimate guns ... HA! Guns are always in the hands of people. Saying that guns themselves don't kill people, is in itself correct, but fails to address the fact that guns are always USED by people and thus are deadly. According to your logic, the same can be said with regard to your argument about cars. So you want to do the racial talk. Fine by me: let me give you a comparison. In the Netherlands we have quite a lot of racial (or religious tensions) as well. You know ... muslims and christians? Still ... look at the graph fstop provided. It has nothing to do with race, religion or whatever ... it has to do with the availability of guns, no more and no less. And ... still time to get out of the Netherlands? ... jee, look who is talking? I wouldn't want to live in the US for a million dollars.

so silly. Cars are made to transport people.
Handguns are made to be conceased and to kill other human beings.
Zimmy, bug off, I'm done reading your idiotic sht.

Lol. Libs... Angry, irrational, childish, simplistic...

Eureka! All applies to far right as well!

Guns are available to US citizens as a check to government power. That's not an interpretation, that's why it's in there.



So guns will stay, most Americans agree on that.

Now the big question is, what drives those firearm deaths? Why are New Zealanders twice as safe as the French with the same number of households with weapons (from the chart)?

If violent crime keeps rising in Poland, do you think that there will be a bigger push to loosen up gun laws?

@ TZ: Aha ... so if you don't know anything else to say, you are out of your depth and you feel that others outsmart you, you resort to this tactic. I should have known ... you were the one who started with simple discussion tactics in the first place. You've lost, sunshine. There are no two ways about it. Rant all you like ... I for one know what you are.


Good question convex! General character of the people, their disposition, their mentality? Their education? I dunno. Do you have an explanation?

Lol. You are the angry childish one who lost here, Stuie boy.
As you have made so clear, it's not worth one's time to try and reason with such people. This is plain for all to see.

I knew you would react like that, TZ. You are sooooooo predictable. "Plain for all to see" ... again a discussion technique (what gives you the right to speak for everybody, huh?) ... sorry, sunshine ... I am too intelligent for you.

stop this ridiculous name calling game, guys...

Americans will support the idea of owning a gun because this law exists in the US and Americans like it that way...
but to decide if Poland should adapt that law, very important is the knowledge of the Polish system and a mentality of the Poles...

No offense, but I don't think the right to own guns would be very wise in a country like Poland.

:S

that's what i'm trying to say in between the lines...

Just felt like clarifying it, but of course I'm not exactly Polish, so I didn't want to confirm that one myself. (I like to think I know enough about Poland and Polish people though.)

;)

Yep, your 'intelligent' childish arguments are too much for me... Lol.

You've ridiculed trener zolwia on this comparison but gave no answer.


Automobiles are another product that is used by people, and cars are also deadly, therefore what.........?


It has to do with some cultures, that cannot be denied. Now, as to availability, the states with the most liberal gun laws such as 'conceal and carry' have the lowest gun crime rates.

press.uchicago.edu/Misc/Chicago/493636.html
So much for your 'feelings' on how things really are.


Facts disinfect liberal 'feelings' although they hurt at first.


lol

LMAO! I know where I'm taking this! :D

But why? Not to wage war, AJ, I am just curious. And I can safely presume that I know Polish mentality better than you.


It is too simplistic, but even if you wanted to draw conclusions from this simplistic approach, this graph is useless, come to think of it. It compares percentage of armed households with deaths per capita, while a meaningful comparison would be that of percentage of people with guns at hand to death per head. Portugal has an average household of 2.9 people, Sweden of 2.0, and these two countries are very close on the graph. On average, 50% more people in Portugal can shoot a gun at will, yet proportion of mortality is almost the same, amazingly - and actually this conclusion has no value either, as we do not know whether it's more likely for the small families to have guns, or vice versa, or maybe there's no relation at all, so we can safely use the average household size.

What we need to draw conclusions from this simplistic approach is what I said, percentage of people exposed to percentage of deaths. Nothing like that can be squeezed out from this graph. Seems to me it's just a convenient statistical artefact, a nice accidental linear co-relation of something and something. Thus the very fact that people are using it as an argument means that truth is not what they want to promote.

Great stuff, N. Indeed it is statistically worthless. I started thinking in that direction but then my head hurt and I decided it wasn't worth the effort. Lol.


Indeed. Either that or they're simpletons grasping to justify their 'feelings' on the matter.
In most matters when dealing with Libs they're either liars or just clueless dupes.

John Lott does the job on statistics right here. Only those void of critical thinking automatically repel from reading this all the way through.
polyticks.com/polyticks/beararms/liars/moreguns.htm

Roughly, although I'd not condemn too severely those who just repeat it. Took me a day to start thinking, and it was only because I am against the bans and trying to find weaknesses in apparently dangerous arguments. And because f_stop repeated it, of course :)

As with many such issues, people first make their choice and then try to rationalise it, so what we get is mostly noise.

Heh, first make choice, then make noise. I made an aphorism!! :)

Rhyme not perfect... well, back to mopping.

i wouldn`t support that

Poles, listen to me. Don`t do that. in case of another partition of Poland it would only increase Polish casualties. Better be calm and wait until masters finish their campaign. Resistance is futile, we Serbians learned that /at least i hope so but,.../

The graph 'More Guns, Less Murder' has axi... axs... damn that language... axes swapped.

Axes?? Whatever, X and Y.

Thanks for the link, now let's read it...

A little humor; a somewhat romantic view of the West and guns.
youtube.com/watch?v=s0mawiSgArU

Then you know the mentality of those who live in poverty, right? Well, there's still a lot of poverty in your country. (Not trying to dwarf or insult your country there, just airing a simple fact of life.) I've had the pleasure of meeting a lot of Polish people who left your country because they were living under extremely poor conditions there, and some of them seemed to want to do almost anything for a bit of money.

I've also been robbed by two Polish guys once, but that's only because they were pointing a gun in my face. (Had they pulled a knife, then they would've lost their money. ;P) I've seen and heard a lot about violent incidents amongst the Polish who work here. (Which of course has to do something with the Polish mafia aswell.) But it happens. It's not because the Polish hate eachother, but some of them are so poor they have to.

And that's why it wouldn't be wise to introduce the right to carry a firearm in Poland, certainly not at this time, in this economical climate and this athmosphere. I don't think you'd disagree with this logic?

:)

because their are thugs and deserve to be shot !


well, criminals have no problem with the access to guns - thanks for your support AJ:)

Convex;
did you know that the amandment was added after the Shays rebellion, to strengthen the militia agains the citizens' revolts? Funny how the things work out..

The idea was for the people to select individuals, hopefully sane ones, to carry arms to protect the rest of us.
Here is another bit of statistic: for every time a gun in the home is used in a self-defense or legally justifiable shooting, there were four unintentional shootings, seven criminal assaults or homicides, and 11 attempted or completed suicides.

I actually also meant people who were forced to work for 2 € an hour, who were made to sleep on concrete in the stables.


You make it sound so easy, but I can assure you that guns are pretty hard to come by for small-thugs and poor people. No, let's make guns affordable and accessible for everybody, and what do you think will happen then, Einstein?

:)

Yep. Many such folks lead with their feelings. This is partly why it's so easy to shoot down their feeble arguments.


Axis.


At least you put in the effort to craft a rational argument.
But should we craft laws for all of society based solely on how criminals may or may not behave? Wouldn't this put the criminals in charge?