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The right to own guns: would you support such legislation in Poland?


KiWo - | 23
1 Dec 2017 #1,201
Not at all.

I've looked at your links and I'm not at all convinced.

Imagine I'm a budding U.K. criminal and I want an AR-15. That Ghost Gunner 2 CNC mill is $1675, it weighs about 23kg so that's going to cost at least several hundred more to ship from the US*. I also need the 80% blank it's designed to machine, another $75. So that's already about twice the Walmart price. Let's assume that I have no problems actually setting it up and milling my part correctly. I now have a AR-15 lower receiver. Yay. So where am I going get the upper receiver, the stock, the trigger, the magazine and all the other parts from? These parts can't just be bought in the U.K. like they can in the US. I can't make them on my shiny new mill, it's not designed for it and there aren't any programs. The only option would be the black market for which I'd need connections and a lot more money...

You think that this is 'not at all' more difficult than just driving to Walmart? Seriously?

*This is assuming that you can even get the company that make it to ship it to Europe and you can get it through both US and U.K. customs, which I think is unlikely.
peterweg 37 | 2,321
1 Dec 2017 #1,202
Plus of course you'd have to make your own black powder (do-able) and ammunition (much-much harder)
.
Ironside 50 | 10,939
1 Dec 2017 #1,203
What difference does it make? Crime is a one issue and the right to own a gun is a separate issue.

Johnny only conclude that those countries which limits the right to own a gun to the extreme still are not free from a gun related crime - no matter how minuscule it is.

I would think that all those bright liberal minds would grasp his meaning with a considerable ease. Was I wrong?
Dirk diggler 9 | 4,721
1 Dec 2017 #1,204
@KiWo

All those parts can be printed, not just the lower.

Again were assuming that there is a total ban on assault rifles and there are no Wal-Mart's stocking ar15s.
Dirk diggler 9 | 4,721
1 Dec 2017 #1,205
Besides in Poland one doesn't need to go that far. They can purchase a bobby gun with cash no questions asked and convert it into a small caliber pistol if they really want a gun. Also, poles who know were to look can easily acquire old aks from Warsaw pact days.

Thankfully poles don't have to face dindu nuffins and cultural enrichment. That's why our crime rates are lower than thr west.
peterweg 37 | 2,321
1 Dec 2017 #1,206
I would think that all those bright liberal minds would grasp his meaning with a considerable ease. Was I wrong?

What exactly would the purpose of owning a gun be? Hunting, sure, my Polish family has three rifles and two shot guns.

Even though they are entitled to own handguns they see no point, using it would require finding a criminal and killing him/her in cold blood. Killing a unarmed petty thief will land you in jail for murder. My family are right wing nationalistic gun owners who view the idea that a gun is needed for self defense as utterly ridiculous.
Ironside 50 | 10,939
1 Dec 2017 #1,207
What exactly would the purpose of owning a gun be?

That would entirely depend on a person owning one or two or three... If someone wants to own a gun tis his right or at least should be.

Killing a unarmed petty thief will land you in jail for murder.

No more, if I heard correctly about the new legislation.

My family are right wing nationalistic gun owners who view the idea that a gun is needed for self defense as utterly ridiculous.@ peterweg

Well, they can always use pitchforks I they are more comfortable with those. Alas if they find the idea that a gun could be useful for self-defence ridiculous I would pretty much question their right winger, nationalistic leaning.

Most likely it is just your liberal sticker you love to label people with..in reality they hadn't been brainwashed into believing that being a patriot is a crime.
KiWo - | 23
2 Dec 2017 #1,208
All those parts can be printed, not just the lower.

Any machined part can be made by people with the right skills and equipment. However, the Ghost Gunner CNC mill from your link would not be capable of making all of those parts.
Dirk diggler 9 | 4,721
2 Dec 2017 #1,209
No but 3d printers can. There are multiple youtube videos and how tos on how to create a full 3d printed/cnc milled at home auto ar15 that falls apart on its own after say 100 rounds. With harder polymers, soon bullets will be printed. I bet people are already experimenting with that now...

Entire homes in China are printed with a 3d printer. an ar15 is nothing
Tacitus 2 | 1,228
2 Dec 2017 #1,210
No but 3d printers can. .

I don't know why you keep bringing this up when so far nobody has used them in a high level crime in Europe (and to my knowledge) in the USA. Clearly it is less easy to produce those weapons than you think, or otherwise terrorists would have used them already.
Dirk diggler 9 | 4,721
2 Dec 2017 #1,211
I don't know why you keep bringing this up when so far nobody has used them in a high level crime in Europe (and to my knowledge) in the USA

EXACTLY!!!! Bc weapons don't matter its the person who uses a gun/knife/car/bomb - regardless where he or she got it from.... not the weapon itself! A gun is just another weapon... The point is if someone wanted to you could - IF guns were banned and hard to get... people will find a way to commit the crime on way or another... c

terrorists

EXACTLY AGAIN!!! its easier to get ak47s and even when guns are hard for them to obtain like in certain European countries they'll prefer cultural enrichment through vans
cms 9 | 1,271
2 Dec 2017 #1,212
But people commit more murders if they have access to guns. Your statistics about Britain are right but the level of crime is tiny compared to the US. If the U.K. really were the 51st State it would be more than twice safer that then next best (Maine).

Czech, Norway and Switzerland do not have free access to guns. Ammo is strictly controlled in all cases and automotive weapons are banned. In any case there is little difference between the murde rates in Czech and the U.K. Norway and Switzerland are safer for the simple reason that they are richer.

According to a CBOS and TV republica survey then 86 percent of Poles are against any liberalisation of the gun laws. I hope that is a source you can trust !

And there is nothing leftist and it gun control - all parties in Europe favor it . I reckon the Spanish laws were probably put in place by Franco. The issue has only been raised once in my memory in Polish politics by Kukiz - unfortunately he chose the day of the Las Vegas shootings to do it and end3 up humbling the usual nonsense about how triucks can be just as dangerous.
peterweg 37 | 2,321
2 Dec 2017 #1,213
Alas if they find the idea that a gun could be useful for self-defence ridiculous I would pretty much question their right winger, nationalistic leaning.

Maybe you should question why you think gun ownership is a right wing, nationalistic issue -outside of the USA.

Its not a party or political issue. There is no connection between a desire to own guns and the party you vote for. I wouldn't vote either ways for any party based on their support for gun laws, there isnt any party thats has ever made it an issue. Nationalist parties in the Uk don't have pro-gun policies, they have no policies on about guns whatsoever.

Committed Polish Nationalists will volunteer for the Territorials, they'll get access to assault rifles, anti-tank, heavy machine guns and training. WTF is the point of a 'freedom' hand gun when you need all that to defend your country?
Ironside 50 | 10,939
2 Dec 2017 #1,214
Maybe you should question why you think gun ownership is a right wing, nationalistic issue -outside of the USA.

It is not. However if someone think that using a gun in self-defence is laughable you either misunderstood their meaning or they are not a right wing.

WTF is the point of a 'freedom' hand gun when you need all that to defend your country?

A gun make a clear distinction between a subject and a citizen.
cms 9 | 1,271
2 Dec 2017 #1,215
Well then you only need tell the 86 percent of Poles who oppose gun ownershipthat they are not citizens.
peterweg 37 | 2,321
2 Dec 2017 #1,216
It is not. However if someone think that using a gun in self-defence is laughable you either misunderstood their meaning or they are not a right wing.

I think you should understand that gun ownership is not a right wing thing outside the USA. And that criminals in Europe don't use guns to commit petty crimes, they are generally used to murder family members or criminal enemies.

So the opportunity to use a gun in self defense doesn't exist, hence the link between self defense and freedom and politics doesn't exist.
Dirk diggler 9 | 4,721
2 Dec 2017 #1,217
@cms

Says who? Again there is plenty of access to guns in czechy Switzerland norway etc yet very little gun crime. In Mexico there are huge penalties such as 10 20 years in prison for having an illegal gun yet hundreds of thousands died in the narco wars. Same w other Latam countries.

In Chechnya guns are plentiful too yet there has been very little gun crime esp under kadyrov who is a great leader btw.

Please provide link to CBOS source so we can see that indeed 86% of poles are against 'liberalization' and what exactly does liberalization mean in this particular case.

In pl, it is easy to attain a gun legally. The laws gland process for obtaining a gun legally are pretty similar to us laws in places like Illinois NYC etc and less restrictive than California. There are also use to be a lot of illegal guns busy most have been sold

Bulgaria is another example of a country w a lot of illegal guns yet relatively loe murder rates. Again each case is different and it depends on how society uses guns. Saying that access to guns legal or illegal automatically increases gun crime is a fallacy and several countries prove that it isn't true.
cms 9 | 1,271
2 Dec 2017 #1,218
fakty.interia.pl/polska/news-co-polacy-sadza-o-dostepie-do-broni-palnej-sondaz-cbos,nId,2454512

There you are. You can google the other countries yourself. You probably need to argue with the other 33 million poles to oppose gun liberalisation. For myself the evidence is obviously so overwhelming that guns equals more murders.
idem - | 135
2 Dec 2017 #1,219
Saying that access to guns legal or illegal automatically increases gun crime is a fallacy and several countries prove that it isn't true.

I don't think I agree with you.

cbsnews.com/news/how-u-s-gun-deaths-compare-to-other-countries
jon357 66 | 17,035
2 Dec 2017 #1,220
Well then you only need tell the 86 percent of Poles who oppose gun ownershipthat they are not citizens.

Very well said.
johnny reb 28 | 5,301
2 Dec 2017 #1,221
Oh for crying out loud, if I lived in Poland and wanted a gun I would make one.
You can make a 9mm zip gun for $2
Here is a two minute video in how to build a hooligan special. gunssavelife.com/the-2-9mm-zip-gun/
Dirk diggler 9 | 4,721
2 Dec 2017 #1,222
@cms

If so cultural enrichment brings also causes murder. Should thst be banned too?

Yes the us has a lot of murders. The us U.S. has lax guns laws.
Canada norway czechy Switzerland etc do not have many murders or much crime at all for that matter. Their gun laws are also lax.
Latam strict gun laws but plenty of cheap guns. Huge penalties for guns yet non-stop murders.

Therefore, your statement of more guns automatically meaning more murders doesn't hold water for numerous countries.
Joker 2 | 1,767
2 Dec 2017 #1,223
If so cultural enrichment brings also causes murder. Should thst be banned too?

Im sure the crime rate would be much lower without the criminal refugee/terrorist take over of Europe. At some point in time they will have to face reality and admit they were wrong, either before or after it literally blows up in their face.

Well then you only need tell the 86 percent of Poles who oppose gun ownershipthat they are not citizens.

Same thing goes as well in the USA

We don't need any expat Europeans dictating to us which laws of ours they do or don't approve of.

If Poles want guns, its up to them, not some Brit!
idem - | 135
2 Dec 2017 #1,224
Again there is plenty of access to guns in czechy Switzerland norway etc .

In Chechy? Do they sell them in corner shop?

I think it is difference between access to guns through illegal sources and licence and buying them easily in USA.
Ironside 50 | 10,939
3 Dec 2017 #1,225
Well then you only need tell the 86 percent of Poles who oppose gun ownershipthat they are not citizens

Nothing would make me happier.
jon357 66 | 17,035
3 Dec 2017 #1,226
Oh for crying out loud, if I lived in Poland and wanted a gun I would make one.

We'd write to you in prison.

If Poles want guns, its up to them

They don't.
johnny reb 28 | 5,301
3 Dec 2017 #1,227
They don't.

Sure they do, you are still living in denial is all.
Americans were brought up from childhood with guns, collecting, target shooting, hunting, self defense procedures, safety and Eurps wouldn't even know how to load one properly and have been brainwashed from childhood that a gun is evil.

Not all Brits feel the same way you do though jon.
Brits are even building Zip Guns.

thehomegunsmith.com/ZipGun.shtml
jon357 66 | 17,035
3 Dec 2017 #1,228
Americans were

We're talking about Poland, not America.

Not all Brits feel the same way you do though jon.

Most do. Want some stats?
KiWo - | 23
3 Dec 2017 #1,229
There are multiple youtube videos and how tos on how to create a full 3d printed/cnc milled at home auto ar15 that falls apart on its own after say 100 rounds.

If that's the case then perhaps you should have provided links to those instead. A quick look didn't reveal any AR-15s with 3D printed upper receivers/bolts/bolt carriers or barrels that I could see.

Homes doesn't require the same precision or tight tolerances as a gun, most of them are, after all, made of bricks and mortar.
johnny reb 28 | 5,301
3 Dec 2017 #1,230
We're talking about Poland, not America.

Maybe you aren't but I am by making the comparison to why the brainwashing you Eurps receive since childhood that guns are evil.
Only through mass non-compliance with all gun and knife laws will we ever overthrow Britains anti-gun fascist gun laws.
"Vengeance will be mine, one bullet at a time"


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