The right to own guns: would you support such legislation in Poland?

Suicides are routinely included in gun homocide rates in the US.


Beause drug dealers and gang members are self-selected and are mostly a danger to each other (and honestly I don't care if crooks kill each other).

I only care about gang gun violence when innocent bystanders get shot which is distressingly often (but the racial realities behind that mean that it doesn't get discussed in the media).

The facts are that gun violence is statistically mostly commited by the NAM (non-Asian* minority) population. But no one can publicly say they want to publicly disarm urban blacks and latinos so they turn on white gun owners (who have comparitively low levels of gun violence) instead.

*in the US "Asian" means East Asia, not Southern Asia as in the UK

They don't need to. On the whole the UK is a pretty safe country. The chances of someone coming face to face with a gunman are extremely slim. The same goes for Poland. If the law changed in Poland overnight, without a doubt, Poland would no longer be the safe country that it is right now. Why would anyone in their right mind want to change that? You only have to look at the numbers of gun deaths per year in the US to see that guns are a major problem. This is not just due to gang violence either. TheOther put an FBI link up on this or some other thread which shows that the most gun deaths occur in the southern states and not in big cities such as Chicago.

This thread is debating the right to own guns. What about those Polish citizens who don't want a change in legislation, who are happy to be able to walk freely down the street without fear of being shot at? Their opinions should matter because if the laws changed, they wouldn't get a choice in the outcome.

The US is different. They believe in self -defense because they are a nation living in fear. People have guns for the what if scenario, and because everyone else has them. They don't feel safe in their own country and they don't trust the government. They don't understand what it's like to live in a country where guns are not needed. For all their purported freedoms, Americans are anything but free.

No. They believe in self-defense because settling most of the continent only happened in the 19th century and people had to be able to take care of themselves without much law enforcement/nanny state to take care of them. This meant guns for self defense and hunting.

US gun culture is not the product of fear but of history. Given most of that is not relevant in Europe which has been settled with state infrastructure for much longer.


Spoken like a city slicker who's never gone to the dump to shoot rats....

That really doesn't make sense.

Oh Chem STOP !
How about someone with a knife or other weapon that someone is assaulted with on a daily bases in the U.K.


And while you are looking look at that, factor in the Black on Black gun deaths and then narrow that down to just five cities in the huge United States (where guns are illegal to have) which are predominately Black cities.

Last week there were over 100 Black people were shot in the southeast side of Chicago alone.
(Black on Black)
Think that might be a factor in your repetitious misleading brainwashing.
How many Black ghetto's or predominately Black cities are there in Poland ?


What percentage would you say that is ? Maybe 95%.


Chicago is #1 and the southern cities are predominately Black. (Have you connected the dots yet ?)


Not true, we believe in not becoming a statistic if all possible.


I feel very safe, especially when I have my Huckleberry tucked under my arm and what country in the world does trust their government silly.


We have more freedoms than any other country in the world and by being allowed to protect ourselves and family with a firearm is just one of them.

Do you have that FREEDOM in your country ? :-)

This is all nothing to do with Poland. Mods can this thread be moved to off topic?

Yes, I know the history of guns in the US and the Constitution, what I should have said is that in my opinion in the US today Americans have guns to defend themselves from everyone else who has guns because the climate today is one of fear.


If the legislation changed in Poland such that gun ownership became possible for ordinary Polish citizens, even if it was just for home protection, I think it would only be a matter of time before guns would be found on the streets and people end up getting shot. So those Polish citizens who want nothing to do with guns would find themselves at risk from those who do have them.

Plus, who would Poles be defending themselves from? Poland is a very safe country. Giving its citizens guns would ensure it doesn't stay that way.

Nah, you don't understand American gun love (they way I don't understand soccer). I don't get it entirely either but I don't reflexively look down on it either by warbling about a "climate of fear". Disclosure there were lots of guns around when I was a kid and I was taught basic gun safety and marksmanship but I was never especially into guns after outgrowing bb guns (which could be a lot of fun).


My impression is rather that if Polish people want guns they won't care whether or not it's "legal". Polish people have a long and fine tradition of ignoring laws they find inconvenient. The traditional attitude is roughtly "rules are for those other people and they should follow them.... but my case is special"

I remember a few years ago on Ranczo (yeah, a dumb show, but it can be culturally revealing at times) some mafioso types were threatening the village and the villagers decided to fight back.... and as it turned out lots of people had guns stored away somewhere. I wouldn't be that surprised if more people than is supposed in the countryside have guns that they don't talk about or wave around.

I couldn't agree more.


Don't be silly, mafketis. Guns are serious stuff. You have to have a permission for a gun. How would you obtain it without one? I guess you would have to contact some gangsters for that - a simply unthinkable option for any normal, ordinary Pole. I doubt anyone would know how to contact those gangsters anyway lol


Yes, mafketis, learning about reality in Poland from a dumb TV show - a brilliant idea :))
I've never seen a gun in real life in my life - only in museums. I've also never seen and never heard of anyone who would own a gun in my grandma's village or nearby. The only people with guns in the area are hunters and, to be honest, even there I haven't heard a gun shot although I was told you can hear it sometimes when they're hunting.

Maybe there are people who have some old guns from WWII stashed somewhere and they didn't register them or whatever but that's all I can think of as far as normal citizens are concerned.

And why people in the countryside would have/need guns anyway? o_O
This is not US, maf ;)

It's probably a little harder now, but at the Russian markets of the early 1990s you supposedly could buy weapons (and all sorts of other things not officially displayed). Same thing was supposedly true for the old Stadion dziesięciolecia in Warsaw (it used to be my favorite place in Warsaw, still sooo sad it's gone).

If I wanted to buy a gun (I don't but if I did) I would start asking around (discreetly) at an open air market or two, especially if there were non-Polish sellers.

Maybe not, but as things stand at the moment, the average Polish citizen would have a hard time getting hold of a gun.
If guns were in general circulation, then eventually it would be pretty easy to obtain one just as it is in the US. Guns change hands many times in private sales in the US which is one way in which criminals end up in possession of them. Given time, the same would happen in Poland.

Russia is sth completely different. Wars in the Caucasus, terrorists, Russian mafia. Huge country too, it's more like US. There are US-like shootings there sometimes (well, not as mass and numerous as in the US, but they do happen) and some time ago there was a grenade thrown at a bus stop or sth in Moscow o_O


Sounds very fishy, one would have to be very desperate to do that or a criminal.

Btw, here's one article:
domowy-survival.pl/2016/01/metody-na-nabycie-broni-palnej-2016

A fragment:

"It should be mentioned that in terms of gun ownership at homes we are not only terribly behind the European Union but even the post-Soviet Russia. The only countries of the Eurokolkhoz where it is more difficult to get guns are Lithuania and Romania."

And I think it is better if it stays that way.


It's incomprehensible for me that one can simply walk into Walmart in the US and buy a gun. That's pure madness for me.

I'm pretty sure criminals don't have great problems in acquiring guns now.

Could be, maf, but you don't really hear often about gun related violence in Poland.

Becuase Poland is generally not that violent a place. That's why mafia wars in the 1990s were nothing compared to Russia (a much more violent place).

Guns aren't magic, they don't cause crime and violence by themselves. It's culture more than the mere presence of guns that causes gun crime.

Note that gun crime did not decrease after the total gun ban in the UK.

Note that I'm not in favor of everybody walking around with guns either, but people who panic at the very idea of some citizens legally owning guns are just as gun crazy as those who keep machine guns at home.... just in a different direction.

Maf, there are no youth gangs shooting kids in the streets in Poland like in the US. OK, that probably has something to do with the amount of drugs in the US and poverty and the ghettoisation of non-white communities but imagine if every football hooligan in Poland could just walk into a supermarket and buy a gun - no thank you...


I wouldn't be so sure, tbh.


I'm not against some citizens legally owning guns. Those who really need it - for personal protection, can have it.
And besides - hunters can own guns in Poland, collectors, people who do shooting for sport, so it's not like it's some kind of total ban or sth.

Chemikim, people are getting shot regardless. Criminals have guns and always will have them. Anyway being killed is being killed - doesn't really matter what has been used to do the deed. Its an irrational fear of guns.


They are facing that risk even now. The police is armed. Criminals are armed. A foreign security forces on the Polish soil are armed.
You are not suggesting that a normal people, upstanding citizens would turn overnight into crazed cold blood killers just because you would given them a gun? Are you? That is an irrational fear of guns and their magical potency, if I ever seen one.


From all enemies domestic and foreign. Being a republic Poland needs citizens that would stand up to uphold its principles.


You would have to ask. On the other hand if you're local and in a city, you have a certain idea where some illegal stuff can be bought.


Why would they tell you anything? Are you that naďve? That would be a closely guarded secret.


Yeah and by the guns magic power they would appear in Poland? Really?

When you live in a neighbourhood where bullets are flying your kid is far less likely to be killed than in a neighbourhood where all some drunks or hooligans can do is throw bottles at each other or stab each other with a knife.

That's two different realites for cops too, don't forget.


Yeah, sure, let's protect the Constitution and the Constitutional Tribunal against PiS with guns! Yay! :D
You gotta love the smell of civil war in the morning :)


Whom?


I don't. The only non-Polish people in open markets in my city are selling watermelons and stuff like that lol Can you imagine someone asking a watermelon seller in front of other buyers (those places are busy) where to buy a gun illegally? :D


Oh, Iron, Iron... You clearly don't live in Poland and don't know people in the Polish countryside and the reality here :)) I know them since I was very little. I know what I'm talking about.


If you could simply walk into a supermarket and buy a gun? Well yes, why not? Rival football ultra groups shooting each other instead of beating each other up. And innocent kids getting in the way. Look at the violence in the stadiums. Or outside of them during Independence March. Instead of throwing rocks hools could start shooting cops. Like in the US when a cop never knows whether a guy in a hoodie is reaching for a pack of cigarettes or a gun.

No, thank you.

Please, Ironside, THINK a little.

Why there is so much gun violence in the US and so little in Poland? Why there are mass shootings in the US and no such thing AT ALL in Poland?

Where do you think an average Pole would like to raise their children?

Iron, you don't live in Poland and I don't think you know what people here think about all this gun stuff in the US. When there's another mass shooting in the US they don't even comment anymore - they just shake their heads. Do you think sane people would like to have any of the gun related problems that you have in the US? Do you think we're suicidal? :D

Why on Earth would we like to have your problems?

Btw, once, in highschool our classmate told us that she met a guy who owned a gun and showed it to her and I think he was even carrying it with him. We all thought right away that he must be some fishy, dangerous guy - probably a criminal and told her to stay away from him. She could have been fantasying though, she liked to show off so it's possible she thought it would be a cool story, I don't know ;)

Why would there be a neighborhood with flying bullets? People would just go mad from Sunday to Monday, hey we got a GUN! Let shoot everyone. That crazy.

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Actually, a knife in close quarters is as deadly as a gun. Somehow people are not getting stabbed in busses or trams. Why would that change with a gun?

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I know what I have seen with my own eyes. Some people have guns stashed, don't know how common is that though.
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Even then. Its all your imagination. Anyway is not that simple even in the US. Depends on the state.
Also I don't advocate that anyone could buy a gun like a tomato.

I'm thinking about gun license that all adults could pass (except for criminals, mentally ill). Like a driving license, that would teach you to use a gun, care for it, about law and some training.. There even could be A, B, C categories of that license, one you could but guns to be kept on your property and in your car to transport it to shooting range. Other could give you right to carry it in public. C would be a license for professionals like police officers or military.

Sure the law would need to change. Like you can kill home invader and so forth.
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Why would they shoot at each other? They don't kill each other with axes or whatnot.
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Eh, would that be that stupid? could they afford guns? If then they would be shot dead, process of natural elimination, that would happen only once if at all.

You're building all these scenarios to scare yourself for no reason.
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Statics can be deceiving. There are areas in the USA that are much safer than Poland. What is skewing the picture are ghettos, large cities and so on. So all that violence is relative. You can experience more violence in a line to bus in Poland than in some of those towns in the USA.

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Because mentally ill people are wondering on the streets. Such people they are confined into a mental institutions, medicated in Poland. In the US they roam free. Alas those mass shooting happens in so called no gun areas. (gun-free zones)

Idea is no guns, no shootings, but that means that law abiding citizens are unarmed and criminals and nutters know about it.
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Where you got this idea from? Come and visit me in the Royal Palace in Warsaw.
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Some people, there are others that think differently.
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I'm not going to give instructions for an illegal activity. Please.
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Sure, have you been ever interested remotely in guns or anything military? Nay? So, why would you know?
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Soviets has to go!
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Did you even seen a gun with your own eyes? Not on TV. :)

I had in mind more things like starocie... flea markets, that kind of thing. I'm sure people who sell old weapons might have an idea where newer ones could be obtained....


Culture (maybe some genetics, but that's crime think now so I won't mention it....).

The average mass shooter in the US is not a white crazy loner (though we've got those a plenty) but more likely a black or latino at a party who gets mad about something and comes back packing and shooting in all directions. They often get away because the victims refuse to cooperate with police. Look up "mass party shooting" on google.

I don't know how likely that situation is in Poland (not so much I think) but looking at gun violence is not helped by hysterical overreactions and thinking of guns as magic charms that turn normal people into mad killers....


Actually the places with easier access tend to have lower levels of gun violence. There's been over 300 gun murders in "gun free" Chicago, none by NRA members.

I agree completely.


True to an extent, but the fact is that they are much harder to obtain in a country where they are illegal for general possession within the population. As far as I know now, Poland doesn't have a problem with gun crime. If they were freely available, there is no doubt in my mind that you would see gun related deaths occurring and an increase in crime. Why would any country want that?


It isn't that so much. It is the people carrying those guns that are the problem.
Besides, in this day and age I don't think it's possible to underestimate how fortunate we are to live in countries where guns are illegal and we don't have to worry when we go out about possibly getting shot. I know that Poland doesn't have the problems that the US has, the culture is different, but the US is paying the price for the right to bear arms because much as one could say that most gun owners are responsible and law abiding people, the fact that guns are so freely available means that that anyone can get their hands on one, despite the background checks etc, so it comes as no surprise that they have thousands of gun deaths per year.


How many shootings per year happen? Probably not that many.
For sure it would increase if guns were legal and available to all.


No of course I'm not suggesting that. Probably most gun owners would be responsible people. But others might not be and if guns are freely available it would be very easy for them to fall into the wrong hands. As it stands now, it's not easy to get hold of a gun.

What no-one has also mentioned so far, is accidental shootings. Kids are killed every year in the US because they managed to get their hands on guns which should have been kept unloaded and somewhere safe. It only takes a minute of thoughtlessness for a tragedy to occur.


That sounds scarily like wanting citizens to take things into their own hands.
The Police and Army are the people who are there to defend the country, not a bunch of trigger happy citizens.


This is exactly what the US has, but it hasn't stopped gun crime. Private sales of guns, gun fairs etc where maybe paperwork isn't as thoroughly checked. Once guns are in general circulation, anyone can get hold of one, it's that simple, and that is the problem.

And that problem is countered with the good guys being allowed to own and defend themselves from the bad guys that have illegal guns.
And with over 330 million firearms in America how would you suggest your problem be solved with a Constitution that says the American people have the right to bear arms ?

Chem, did you have a family member that got shot by any chance to be so anti gun ?

So, if you cannot trust your fellow countrymen to carry guns abound. Why would you entrust them with the right to vote. That has much more direct impact on your life than some irresponsible or criminal dumbass caring a gun.

Maybe there should be selected and trusted group of people that not only would have the right to carry guns around but would also be the only ones with the right to vote.

Hey if you're elitist - I can understand your point of view. Otherwise not so much.
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That correlation is not proven. It is only an estimation. There're other countries than USA with guns at homes and without so many gun crimes.

Even if you were right. Lets assume that for a sake of discussion. Why would you penalize law abiding citizens for some what might happen or for some crime that would have been committed with a gun instead than with a knife?

Why one man misdeeds should negatively reflect on my rights, on my freedom, on my choices? Where is justice in that?>
After all I would rather have a gun to defend myself and my family than became victim of a crime. That someone somewhere would use surplus of arms in a country to break the law and commit a crime - that is not a sufficient excuse to curb my freedom. I have nothing to do with it.

IF we take your assumption that all citizens freedom should be sacrificed on the altar of a greater good. Let bring your logic to its natural conclusion. Institution of marriage is beneficial for a society, open relationships, single mothers, gay 'marriages' - not so much. They are creating inequalities, disturbance and lack of stability in a society and generally tends to brings standards down.

All that is allowed by the state in the name of freedom and personal choice. Why make an exception for guns? Either we sacrifice all freedoms for a great good or not!

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Kids are killed due to all kinds accident. People die in traffic accidents. Why not ban all cars and introduce a public transport that would be statistically safer.

No consistency here. People are ready to make all kind of allowances and excuses for cars. Yet they refuse to do the same for guns. Actually there is more people that die in car accidents than to guns. Significantly higher if we remove all that ghetto, gang related shootings.

It tells me that is not about victims or number of victims. Its about victims of shootings. So it burn down to anti-gun prejudices, fear or a fact that such a people don't believe in self-defense.

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Statistically it is not true.
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It's not a question of that. Just about everyone has the right to vote within a particular country and although you are correct in that a vote the wrong way might impact on my life, it is not going to impact me as directly as staring down the barrel of a gun would. People don't die or suffer serious injury as a result of voting.


Not at all. I am only making the point that once that legislation has been passed, then eventually guns would be easy to get hold of as they are in general circulation. You would not advocate criminals or mentally disturbed people having the right to possess a gun, but it's happening in the US, so why given time, would you think that wouldn't happen in Poland? Even though I don't think there is any real need for Polish citizens to have guns for self-defence, given the low crime rate in the country, do you really think that if laws were changed that it would only be those responsible members of society that would have them? Homes get burgled, maybe someone wants to make some money from selling their gun and isn't too choosy about who gets it, there are many ways that guns end up in the wrong hands and it's those people who end up with them that I would be worried about. Nothing to do with being elitist.

You cannot say that this wouldn't happen.


This is true, Switzerland is an example of this, but their gun politics are not the norm. Most men there are conscripted into the militia and receive military and weapons training. Weapons are kept at home and they can keep their weapons once conscription has ended. Hence there is high gun ownership there. They still have gun deaths every year though. How many deaths would you consider to be acceptable then Iron?


Because it cannot be guaranteed that only law abiding citizens would have guns. If that were the case then the US would not have the scale of gun deaths that it does. You cannot stop the bad guys getting hold of guns, so the safety of the general population has to be considered. Why should Polish people be put at risk because some people would like to own guns?


People should have the right to be safe in their own country, and it would not be the misdeeds of just one person either. What about the freedom and choices of those people who want nothing to do with guns, does their opinion not count, or should they move to a different country?


The chances of you ever needing a gun to defend yourself are slim. The UK is not crime free, but pretty safe on the whole, as is Poland. It's highly unlikely that you are going to come face to face with a burglar wielding a gun.


All of those things do not impact on the safety of the general population though do they? Guns do.


Yes they are, but if guns weren't kept at home, then those deaths wouldn't occur would they? Of course you will probably say that knives shouldn't be kept at home either, but there is a purpose for knives to be in the home. Guns are only used to kill or inflict serious injury.


Same as above. Yes, there is a risk every time you drive one, but they serve a legitimate purpose. People don't need to have guns and Poland seems to be doing just fine without them. Why have a change in the law which would make Poland a more dangerous place?


You're probably right but why add to those deaths by a change in the gun law?


I really don't know so much that it's prejudice, I just don't see that arming the general population is in any way beneficial. Totally the opposite in fact. Do you really think that the US is a country that Poland should emulate?

Fear? Maybe. I would not want to live in a country where I was constantly looking over my shoulder, and I doubt many Poles do either.

Self-defence? Not needed where I live.

No. Nobody is being shot in Poland. Poland is Not America,


No. Criminals do not use guns to commit crime in Poland.


Nobody is being killed by criminals in Poland. Crimes of passion or suicide is it.

Comparing guns to other objects is a joke. Guns are guns countries where they are being freely used do not look to fit my idea of the first world.

Of course it is!
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Germany 1933? Does it ring a bell? Secession conventions, 1860. ? They don't? Are you really, really sure?
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"•A person in the US has better chances of being struck by lightning ( about 1 in 6,000) than of being shot by another person at any given moment. "

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I understand your point. I understood it the first time you used it. Yes, you're right. That could happen than more criminals would get an access to a gun if the number of guns in a country would increase significantly.

However that would be a negligible number most likely.
The point is - if someone want to commit a crime there is nothing you can do to stop them. I don't think that people who are killed with a knife, an axe, baseball bat or a gun care in the slights what tool had been used in causing their demise.

What more, freedom of majority cannot be circumvented, reduced due to action of few.
In other words, collective responsibility is not a very evolved concept and doesn't promote freedom of an individual.
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I think that US and Poland differ in that regard and gun crimes would never spin out of control in certain areas as it is in the USA.

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How many dead in road accidents would you consider too many? What number would make you think about banning cars?#

I think the real question here is - when dangers outweighs benefits? For me I guess it would be the same number people shot as those killed in traffic accidents. Then I would think that maybe something is not right. Fat chance of that happening bar a war.

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That is my proposal, drives need to pass a competency test as well as theoretical stuff, I think that something similar could be done with guns. Once you pass, you can buy.

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No one is safe, that is a common misconception, you can feel safe but in fact you're relatively safe.

So, in fact your anti-gun argument is based on a false assumption of security. Guns in the hands of your countrymen would make you feel unsafe. OK! I can understand that. Even though I think such a stance is based on feelings, not logic or reason.

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They don't have to have anything to do with guns.
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No, I don't! Your assumption is that guns are making a country more dangerous place. I think that the opposite is true.:~)
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Check!


Check!-----
I would rather be a self-relaying citizen with as many freedoms as possible. Rather than a safe 'peasant' relaying on others for my safety.

The stats for that don't add up.

The National Oceanic Atmospheric Administration ( NOAA ) record deaths and injuries from lightning strikes, and so far this year in the US, 27 people have died. The 10 year average is 31 deaths per year.

lightningsafety.noaa.gov/fatalities.shtml

Contrast that with about 33,000 deaths per year from gunshots ( 2012 -14 )

gunpolicy.org/firearms/compareyears/194/total_number_of_gun_deaths

The other problem with using that as a comparison is that lightning strikes are random events, acts of god if you like, which to some degree are preventable ( you don't stand outside in a storm).

Getting shot by someone with a gun, if not totally accidental, is a conscious and deliberate act. It's not the same thing.

To get more of a perspective on this topic, I read up on the gun laws in Poland, and was very surprised to find that you can get a gun licence for the purpose of self-defence. However in addition to passing a psychological evaluation ( repeated 5 yearly for self-defence purposes ), having a clean criminal record, and passing an exam in proper weapons handling, you must be able to prove that you believe your life to be in ' a constant, substantial, and higher than average' danger:-

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Overview_of_gun_laws_by_nation

I also found this nice little article from 2013 which also covers gun law in Poland and in addition shows that gun crime is not a common occurrence:-

krakowpost.com/6306/2013/02/gun-laws-in-poland


But you can make it less easy for them.


To be fair I don't think it would be on the same scale either, but there would be an increase in gun deaths as exemplified by those European countries where it is legal to carry firearms.


This argument has been used many times by those in support of guns.
Cars serve a necessary purpose, unless you would like to go back to horse and cart, and yes, we accept the risk that goes with them, as we do when getting on a plane etc

We have laws to try and ensure that people drive safely and a test and theory to pass first. We build cars with many safety features these days in order to cut down risk. Inevitably though, there will be deaths and that is the risk we accept when getting from A to B. It's just not possible to ban all forms of transport.

There is one big difference with guns. They are NOT necessary. They have only one purpose, to kill and maim. Nobody actually needs to have one. The fact that you can have them in Poland for self-defence for a VERY good reason shows that they are not needed generally and that Poland is happy with the laws as they stand. There is no need to pass new laws which would inevitably lead to deaths and an increase in crime, and I can't see this changing.


In theory it would work but there is always the possibility of abuse once someone has a gun. Family members could end up with access to it for starters.There was that case in the US last year where the gunman used family members' guns to go on a shooting spree.


What benefits? Have you ever been in a situation where you have really needed a gun? Honestly?


Too damn right they would!


If you arm the general population and guns are in circulation, you stand a chance of being shot, in crime ridden areas, a much higher chance. As it stands in the UK, there is a very low chance of me being shot as guns are banned. Ok, there are illegal guns here, but my chances of being shot with one are very, very low. That seems to me to be quite logical reasoning.


You really think crime stats wouldn't increase?


Having a gun does not guarantee your safety unless you have it strapped to you 24/7 ;)

Like this

Not true at all Chem as I have a sign on my gate that reads:
This property guarded three days and nights per week with 12 gauge semi automatic, you guess which three. :-)