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The right to own guns: would you support such legislation in Poland?


Lenka 3 | 2,353
13 Aug 2016 #1,021
people have a right to rise and awareness and to whippy up support, prepare a ground, educate people for such a legislation to be introduced in Poland at the later date.

Do I stop pro gun lobby? Not at all. Let them try to promote it all they want. All I'm saying is that at this time such change in legislation would go against the views of majority of Poles.

There is no reason why people should be able to arm themselves if they wish to do so.

And they can do in the frames of current law. I'm not stopping them, am I? However I have the right (as the majority of Polish society it seems) to be against any changes in the law.

Even if your estimate is correct that doesn't negate anything Johnny said

There is no confirmation that there is an increase or is it in any substantial number. If there was another poll we could judge somehow but for now it's only assumption.

Those right equal no right at all. Unless you are cozy with a local commandant of the police.

No, it's a right. You might not like how it's granted but that doesn't change the fact that Johnny's friends didn't even apply so there are no grounds to say they wouldn't get it. Simple as that. More relaxed laws would do nothing for them as their issues are money related.
peterweg 37 | 2,320
13 Aug 2016 #1,022
although this loose group of citizens were under armed and under trained the command structure was strong, If under this spirit we could build a force like this for the protection of Poland it could only be a good thing.

Afghanistan isn't a good example, the terrain is extremely difficult for modern military to operate, its very good for poor armed insurgents to operate.

Poland, on the other hand, is perfect tank and helicopter country. Poorly armed militia is useless in this situation, we need very well armed professionals and well trained militia. Artillery, mortars, anti-tank guide missiles, SAM's are the minimum.

Polands professional army are short of their needs. There isn't much for a Home Army and leaving them to fight with the 'right to bear arms' weapons (rifles and pistols) is pointless and suicidal.
Ironside 50 | 10,814
13 Aug 2016 #1,023
No, it's a right.

A right - is a moral or a legal entitlement to have or do something. If you agree that people have a moral right to won a gun, why would you deny them that right to be realized on legal grounds?

Unless you think about a legal right in that case you're mistaken. They don't have that right. That is a privilege and on the top of it the law that exists at the moment is not legally binding. As it is completely within discretion of a commented of the local police to grand such a permit or not. Since commandant is not elected in a local election he doesn't give a rat's ass about what people (the local constituency) thinks about him.

Simple as that.

Simple as that is that you have no clue. Enough said - why don't you go to ROMB webpage and see how that looks in reality.

Poorly armed militia is useless in this situation

To do what? Stop an offensive of few tanks division supported by air forces and boots on the ground? Of course not! Nobody claimed that.

As for a local defense forces, armed with a light weaponry, machine guns, MANPADS, .50 caliber, shoulder fired, semi-automatic sniper rifles, shoulder-launched anti-tank rockets and more, can make it impossible and too costly to keep and occupy conquered territory.

Lines of communion necessary to support and provisions those divisions would be extremely sensitive to such a local forces.
peterweg 37 | 2,320
14 Aug 2016 #1,024
Agreed, all those weapons are very expensive and needs correspondingly expensive training. Anything less and its pointless.
So the idea that allowing citizens to possess small arms to 'defend the country' is ridiculous.
Lenka 3 | 2,353
14 Aug 2016 #1,025
If you agree that people have a moral right to won a gun, why would you deny them that right to be realized on legal grounds?

Moral right? No, I don't think so. It's not a god given right to have a gun. It's a man made product that falls under certain regulations as almost anything else.

Since commandant is not elected in a local election he doesn't give a rat's ass about what people (the local constituency) thinks about him

And? Your building permit are granted by government workers not elected, you are judged by judges that are not elected... the same goes for driving license, permission to open a shop, sell alcohol so on, so on.

And I definitely wouldn't want someone granting permissions just because he wants to win votes.

Simple as that is that you have no clue. Enough said - why don't you go to ROMB webpage and see how that looks in reality.

So you do have a proof (and not only your assumption) that they wouldn't get the permit! Great! Can you share it with all of us? Or maybe you have an argument how they would suddenly find money for it if only someone else was granting the permits?
ZIMMY 6 | 1,601
14 Aug 2016 #1,026
Moral right? No, I don't think so. It's not a god given right to have a gun. It's a man made product that falls under certain regulations as almost anything else.

The founders of the American constitution did not give special rights to bear arms; the second amendment merely protected what was believed to be a natural right of citizens to keep their guns. . Citizens and 'militia' were interchangeable definitions and considered the same thing since virtually every household had some sort of weapon in those days which was usually used for hunting but also for defense of the home. Indeed, the American revolution was won with guns. .
mafketis 24 | 8,888
14 Aug 2016 #1,027
The founders of the American constitution did not give special rights to bear arms; the second amendment merely protected what was believed to be a natural right

Technically the US constitution doesn't give anyone rights, it prohibits the government from infringing people's natural rights which include self-defense.
Ironside 50 | 10,814
14 Aug 2016 #1,028
So the idea that allowing citizens to possess small arms to 'defend the country' is ridiculous.

Why? To defend their town, village or a neighborhood in case of war or whatnot. That makes a lot of sense.

No, I don't think so. It's not a god given right to have a gun

Really? Who are you to deny me right to buy what I want? Tyrant, upstart?

And?

that is bad and needs to be changed.

And I definitely wouldn't want someone granting permissions just because he wants to win votes.

Shouldn't have to grand permission for something that should be within your right. What is Polish passport? confirmation of the citizenship or identity card for peasants.

So you do have a proof (and not only your assumption) that they wouldn't get the permit!

Generally they don't. That is what ROMB is complaining about, you can have all legal requirements fulfilled to a T, and some unelected Dick can refuse you (and does, more oft than not) that 'permit' on a whim or expecting a little brown envelop.

In fact power of discretion vested by law on bureaucracy is one of reasons that bureaucracy in Poland is inefficient, corrupt and redundant.

they would suddenly find money

What are you about?>
Why would they invest money into something that wouldn't guarantee them return of their investments i.e. permit?
jon357 66 | 16,187
14 Aug 2016 #1,029
Who are you to deny me right to buy what I want?

What 'right'? When the thing you want to buy is an item that can be used to kill people and is intended to be able to do that the law of the land restricts its sale.
Harry
14 Aug 2016 #1,030
Who are you to deny me right to buy what I want?

If you don't like the rules in Poland, just leave.

Oh, sorry, my mistake.

Anyways, interesting to hear you support removal of all drug laws.
johnny reb 28 | 4,574
14 Aug 2016 #1,031
When the thing you want to buy is an item that can be used to kill people and is intended to be able to do that the law of the land restricts its sale.

You mean like cigarettes and soda pop ?
TheOther 5 | 3,711
14 Aug 2016 #1,032
Killing myself with cigarettes or soda pop is a personal choice. Being killed by a weirdo with a gun is not.
TheOther 5 | 3,711
15 Aug 2016 #1,034
In CA people can't even smoke on the beach anymore. No one is exposed to second hand smoke unless you light a ciggy at home and poison your family.
jon357 66 | 16,187
15 Aug 2016 #1,035
Being killed by a weirdo with a gun is not

Remember guns don't kill people. People do. Cars don't kill people either; the drivers do. Which is why society has very strict controls about who can drive cars, where they can drive them, how they can drive them and how fast.
johnny reb 28 | 4,574
15 Aug 2016 #1,036
Which is why society has very strict controls

Of who can buy a knife, a machete, a hammer, an ice pick, a tire iron, a baseball bat........all lethal weapons yet no strict controls.

You should be able to have the right to own a gun as well which I would support such legislation.
All children by the age of nine years old should be taught gun safety, how to load and unload a gun as well as shoot it.

It just may save their life some day from some weirdo wigging out with a gun.
It takes a good guy with a gun to stop a bad guy with a gun.
TheOther 5 | 3,711
15 Aug 2016 #1,037
Remember guns don't kill people. People do.

People should be prohibited ... :)
Ironside 50 | 10,814
15 Aug 2016 #1,038
Which is why society has very strict controls about who can drive cars, where they can drive them, how they can drive them and how fast.

You don't need a driving license to buy a car. You need license to drive it on public road, if you drive it abound in your backyard you're good.
jon357 66 | 16,187
16 Aug 2016 #1,039
You need license to drive it on public road

Exactly.

if you drive it abound in your backyard you're good.

And if you go to a shooting range you can fire a gun. You can't however go out and about in the streets with one and there is no significant public desire for the law in Poland to change on that point.
Ironside 50 | 10,814
16 Aug 2016 #1,040
And if you go to a shooting range you can fire a gun.

I should be able to purchase and take a gun to my home. As its perfectly legal in case of a car.

You can't however go out and about in the streets

That is not the point. The point is I cannot buy one or keep it in my house without license.
johnny reb 28 | 4,574
16 Aug 2016 #1,041
That is not the point.

No, the point is that if you don't want to own one don't, if you choose to own one and carry it you should have that right to protect yourself and family.

Once the terrorists attack in Poland and Johnny Reb comes to Poland and promotes the N.R.A., things will go pro gun quickly.
jon357 66 | 16,187
16 Aug 2016 #1,042
I should be able to purchase and take a gun to my home

You can, provided your purchase is in accordance with the law, including gun storage. You cannot walk around town with a loaded gun in your pocket. That is illegal under Polish law.

The point is I cannot buy one or keep it in my house without license

Why should anyone be able to?
mafketis 24 | 8,888
16 Aug 2016 #1,043
Why should anyone be able to?

The right of self defense? I realize British people don't believe in self-defense but Americans (and I think Poles) do.
jon357 66 | 16,187
16 Aug 2016 #1,044
The right of self defense?

In Poland, that does not include the right to bear firearms and sale is highly controlled. Gun crime statistics show that this standard approach is effective. We would not want the US level of gun crime here.

en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_firearm-related_death_rate
peterweg 37 | 2,320
16 Aug 2016 #1,045
The right of self defense? I realize British people don't believe in self-defense but Americans (and I think Poles) do.

Defense from who or what? There is NO chance that any criminal will go to a house armed with a gun. I have never spoken to a European who fears armed criminals and feels the need to be armed to 'defend' themselves.

Here's my brother-in-Laws gun collection. Notice the lack of personal protection weapons. I offered to buy him a pistol as a present, his response was why, WTF use is that for? There is nothing in Poland that requires protection from.

He got a license, he loves guns and can buy a pistol, but there is absolutely no reason for him to do so.


  • guns
mafketis 24 | 8,888
16 Aug 2016 #1,046
We would not want the US level of gun crime here.

When you control for drug and/or gang violence and suicide (look up the Smith and Wesson retirement plan), US gun crime rates are actually pretty modest.
jon357 66 | 16,187
16 Aug 2016 #1,047
When you control for drug and/or gang violence

Why would anyone remove those from gun crime stats (btw, suicide isn't a crime n most countries therefore wouldn't show up on crime stats)?

For that matter how would other countries' gun crime stats look if you removed

drug and/or gang violence

?
peterweg 37 | 2,320
16 Aug 2016 #1,048
The chance of dying in a car accident is 10,000 times more likely that the chance of suffering a criminal death by gun fire in Poland.

The chance of being injured in a car is hundreds of thousands of times more likely than gun crime in Poland.

So why the **** are you not demanding that cars are banned and refuse to leave your home ?
johnny reb 28 | 4,574
16 Aug 2016 #1,049
a car accident is 10,000 times more likely

Doctors kill more people then guns do.
When I saw that to be a proven fact I thought immediately that Doctors should be outlawed.
Ironside 50 | 10,814
17 Aug 2016 #1,050
No, the point is that if you don't want to own one don't, if you choose to own one and carry it you should have that right to protect yourself and family.

From enemies foreign and domestic.


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