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The right to own guns: would you support such legislation in Poland?


dolnoslask
1 Jan 2016 #991
Ahh google and wiki the fountain of all facts (not), If you dig a bit further you will see how this whole subject is highly disputed, probably best wait for a Texan to come along and tell us more, From my experience living there the people are Texans first and US citizens second.
johnny reb 28 | 4,574
1 Jan 2016 #992
The ruling is still in effect - states do not have the right of secession.

You don't live here, never have lived here and never will live here so quiet please ?
You are from Scutland and have limited knowledge of America.

Texas has the right to leave the united states whenever it wishes

That is correct, Texas is a State, however, they are the only state which has reserved the right to retract their statehood.

I doubt that US marines would ever fire upon their own in support of a federal government.

Correct again as the Marines have already openly stated that they would side with the civilians.
Back on topic however, if Poland was given a chance to vote on being able to own and carry a licensed handgun their is no doubt it would be voted in.

Polish law enforcement would even welcome it as they have in the United States.
dolnoslask
1 Jan 2016 #993
"Polish law enforcement" I must admit I am very impressed with the Polish police, they have not had their hands tied behind their backs as In the UK, they are armed and from what I have seen or read they only discharge their weapons only when they are under direct threat.

So all in all I feel that Poland is probably one of the safest places in Europe to live, so I do not think it would be a good idea for immigrants or foreigners to go into a gun shop here flash a residency card and buy a gun. The current laws are good enough in my opinion.
johnny reb 28 | 4,574
1 Jan 2016 #994
immigrants or foreigners

They are not allowed to get a gun license in the U.S.A either by just flashing a residency card.
In fact they would not be granted one period.
Only citizens 21 years of age or older after taking classes for gun safety and laws pertaining to lethal use and responsibility, a written test and an interview by a gun board.

Poland no doubt would be even more stringent since very few Polish citizens have had a life time of training as most have here in the United States.
dolnoslask
1 Jan 2016 #995
My understanding is anyone can buy a firearm from Ebay or a gun show without any paperwork, Obama is currently trying to pass a law (Executive action) to stop this
johnny reb 28 | 4,574
1 Jan 2016 #996
Not totally true.
Any hand gun anyone buys MUST HAVE paperwork obtained from local law enforcement filed with the purchase no matter where they buy it.
Correct me if I am wrong but to my knowledge ANY GUN shipped from e-bay or any other place has to be shipped to a federal firearms licensed dealer where then the buyer can go pick it up after filling out paper work for it weather a long gun or hand gun.

What Obama and Hillary want to stop is people buying long guns (assault rifles) at gun shows for cash without filing any paper work.
Even buying a hand gun at a gun show the proper paper work and I.D. must be filed to obtain it.
dolnoslask
1 Jan 2016 #997
Thanks for your insight Johnny, its been good to be able to discuss two topics with you without your shadow trolls spoiling it, I'm off to have my ham and veg now , so you have a good day.
Librarius - | 91
1 Jan 2016 #998
Thanks for your insight Johnny, its been good to be able to discuss two topics with you without your shadow trolls spoiling it

Unlike the United States, other nations offer universal health care, free education, and an almost universal high standard of living. There is as a result, very little crime and almost no violent crime . The U.S. on the other had, funnels more than half of their GNP into military, spying, destabilisation of other countries, and associated endeavours. Furthermore, unlike more civilised societies, the United States allows their citizens not merely to own multiple handguns, but also military assault rifles and even machine guns.

doxpoxia.org/article6.8.html
dolnoslask
1 Jan 2016 #999
"military assault rifles and even machine guns." available in Poland with the proper permit, Militia, Gun club.
pweeg3
1 Jan 2016 #1,000
You can buy a assault rifle such as a AK-47/74 on a hunters license, semi-automatic only of course. Doesn't allow a short weapon such as a pistol. Pump action /multi-shot shotguns are also valid (and useful) for hunting.

Militia's are an interesting thing, the government and NATO re keen to encourage these as a kind of reserve military force.

Presumably assault rifle/RPG training will be given by the Polish military?
dolnoslask
1 Jan 2016 #1,001
Here is a link to one of our militia for anyone who is interested, not just about shooting guns worth a look

polskikorpusds.pl/

Please keep to the topic
johnny reb 28 | 4,574
12 Aug 2016 #1,002
Times are changing fast and furious in Poland.
Support for such legislation is becoming more popular as the uncivilized crime ridden immigrants are flooding into Europe.
Why should people not be allowed to defend themselves and their families against a knife wielding radical Islamists that was raping your 13 year old daughter ?

so many gunshot deaths (USA), I shouldn't want to see the same thing taking place in Poland. Often a family quarrel will end in verbal abuse, shouting

Woe Polly, first "so many gun shot deaths" are gang related in five major cities in the U.S.A., secondly, a "family quarrel"..... if that happened in America you would be charged with a domestic assault which you would be denied the ownership or possession of any fire arm and if you were drunk in the possession of a firearm you would do heavy jail time and be denied future gun possession.

Poland's upstanding citizens, like the rest of the civilized world, should be allowed a gun for self defense to defend themselves and their families.

This means owning a gun to carry with them at all times if they choose to.
As times change so should the laws.
Lenka 3 | 2,353
12 Aug 2016 #1,003
Support for such legislation is becoming more popular as the uncivilized crime ridden immigrants are flooding into Europe.

Any proof of that? Or you just project your wishes?
johnny reb 28 | 4,574
12 Aug 2016 #1,004
I guess I could send you recordings of my phone calls from my Polish friends in Poland and their e-mails to me in which case would be "projecting their wishes."
Lenka 3 | 2,353
12 Aug 2016 #1,005
I don't doubt your friends would like to own guns as you made it clear before that the ppl you talk to would like more American style gun laws however it doesn't mean:

Support for such legislation is becoming more popular

There is nothing to indicate that Polish ppl swayed in that direction and no initiatives worth mentioning. So whatever your friends say to you is their opinion and you shouldn't draw such far-fetched conclusions. If that's your only base for such statement I could easily match your every friend with my friend that doesn't want the gun legislation to change.
dolnoslask 6 | 3,085
12 Aug 2016 #1,006
We are preparing for an urban war, be it Russia or any other enemy. The Polish government is providing initial support for at least 36,000 of the 100,000 strong private militias, more should be done to bring the number up to 500,000 armed / trained paramilitaries.

bbc.com/news/magazine-37039365

We should not forget that our allies have failed and betrayed us in the past , better prepare to defend Poland ourselves.
johnny reb 28 | 4,574
12 Aug 2016 #1,007
better prepare to defend Poland ourselves.

And citizens like Lenka will be the first wave to go down. (The defenseless pansy soft targets)
You can bet it will be every man for himself in which time I would rather have a neighbor with a gun then one without one.

The Polish people understand that they are not as safe as they once were. (Especially when NATO pulls out)
Why shouldn't the Polish people be able to choose to be able to defend themselves, their family and their property ?
The legislature would not demand that you own a gun but only give you the right to own a gun.
dolnoslask 6 | 3,085
12 Aug 2016 #1,008
"not demand that you own a gun but only give you the right to own a gun"

I agree as long as mental and criminal checks prove positive there should be no reason why citizens should not bear firearms.

My preference would be a requirement to be part of a civil defense militia where appropriate tactical training and supervision is on going.
Atch 16 | 3,204
12 Aug 2016 #1,009
mental and criminal checks

Not sure how easy that is to implement in practise. And even if they were 'normal' there are so many awful, macho types in Poland. Just look at the way they drive and then imagine them with access to a gun.......
Lenka 3 | 2,353
12 Aug 2016 #1,010
Yoh both act like there is complete ban on guns in Poland. It's not the case. Any citizen can apply for gun permit. Getting it is a different matter but the thing is most ppl don't even think of applying. So I wonder where that 500,000 ppl may come from or where you'll find popular support needed for the change in legislation.

Once I see any real data about parliament working on legislation, civil unrest to change the legislation or anything else Johnny's comment is only his perception, not a fact.

Even if there is increase of lets say 50000 ppl in support of guns it's nothing compared to the whole country.
If Polish nation would decide by over 50 % that they want guns then you could say 'Poles want guns and the government is stopping them'. As it is is some individuals wanting guns

One question to you Johnny- did your friends applied for gun permit? And if they did why didn't they get it?
dolnoslask 6 | 3,085
12 Aug 2016 #1,011
"the way they drive and then imagine them with access to a gun......."

I can understand your concern Atch, but if you think about it the Polish police already carry firearms, some could argue that there is no need in Poland due to the low crime rate.

Unlike America very rarely do you have and incident in Poland where the Police discharge their weapons inappropriately, the Police are vetted and trained , from my understanding militia members would be vetted and trained to the same level.

No way would I endorse casual civilian purchase of firearms in Poland .

Not a member of a supervised club / Militia = no gun.

I am fully aware of current firearms legislation in Poland.

My comments are for a case where arms are carried by civilians for the defense of Poland, and I was not advocating the general purchase of firearms at the local Tesco store

Current civil laws do not allow for the specialized types of firearms required for urban warfare.

As for the number of volunteers , I am confident many would take up the challenge to volunteer as they currently do in other services such as the volunteer fire service.
johnny reb 28 | 4,574
12 Aug 2016 #1,012
implement in practise

You must agree to give access to your physical and mental records to the authorities before you can get a concealed to carry permit.
Again, if people like Lenka choose not to own or carry a gun that is their choice.
Their choice should not influence the choice of upstanding citizens who disagree with hers.

Just look at the way they drive

And you Europeans mock the amount of people the U.S. has in it's jails.
You drive in a threatening manner in the U.S. it is called assault (road rage) with a deadly weapon (vehicle) and you go to jail.

In fact if you are convicted of any felony crime you are not allowed to own a gun.
The up standing citizens with no criminal record should have the privilege to own and carry a gun if they choose as it is no longer safe out there.

Not a member of a supervised club / Militia = no gun.

I only WISH this was true in the United States.
There are a lot of people out there that should not be carrying a gun.
I went to one concealed carry class and a woman applying didn't even know how to load her gun.

why didn't they get it?

They are very poor people and can't afford it presently.
Atch 16 | 3,204
12 Aug 2016 #1,013
And you Europeans mock the amount of people the U.S. has in it's jails.

Stop pretending to be cross with me Johnny :))

I know very little about American jails but I would expect you to have a high crime rate because it's such a huge country and I think to be honest that it's amazing that America is as normal as it is, considering the size of it and how difficult it is to manage such a vast place with its many and varied people.
Lenka 3 | 2,353
12 Aug 2016 #1,014
Their choice should not influence the choice of upstanding citizens who disagree with hers.

Isn't that called democracy? The majority of Polish society doesn't want a change in gun laws and if individuals want U.S. kind of gun law they can get it- when they move to USA

They are very poor people and can't afford it presently.

So they don't really have problems with the gun laws in Poland, they just can't afford it. Nice to make it clear.

My comments are for a case where arms are carried by civilians for the defense of Poland, and I was not advocating the general purchase of firearms at the local Tesco store

Sorry, I misunderstood you. The discussion is mostly about USA kind of gun laws vs. European/Polish ones. I jumped to conclusion.

As for the number of volunteers , I am confident many would take up the challenge to volunteer as they currently do in other services such as the volunteer fire service.

It all sounds good and I'm all for strong defence forces however I'm suspicious of such groups a bit. Who would be in charge, what kind of selection would they have ( many ppl may be drawn to such forces for all the wrong reasons), what regulations would be in place... many questions that have to be answered.
johnny reb 28 | 4,574
12 Aug 2016 #1,015
The majority of Polish society doesn't want a change in gun laws

That is YOUR opinion since it has never gone to a vote to my knowledge.
People didn't use to get their heads cut off, blown up and raped in public either.

So they don't really have problems with the gun laws in Poland

Those are YOUR words as they DO want the right to own and carry a gun.
You are a Bleeding Heart Liberal who thinks what is good for you is good for everyone else.
I like to eat steak but because you don't I should tell you that you have to eat it just because it suits my fancy.

Law abiding citizens would support such a law for self defense reasons.
Things are no longer safe out there.
dolnoslask 6 | 3,085
12 Aug 2016 #1,016
"what regulations would be in place... many questions that have to be answered."

So very true and surely a understandable concern, but I do believe that the spirit of the Polish home army still lives strong, although this loose group of citizens were under armed and under trained the command structure was strong, If under this spirit we could build a force like this for the protection of Poland it could only be a good thing.

But this time we should make sure that our home army is fully trained and has access to all the modern weaponry that would be required to make any enemy think twice.

Remember Russia invaded Afghanistan but they were unable to keep hold of the country because the people made that place a hell to keep hold of.
nothanks - | 640
13 Aug 2016 #1,017
Civilian resistance is a center piece of American culture. Much like the USA.
Lenka 3 | 2,353
13 Aug 2016 #1,018
That is YOUR opinion since it has never gone to a vote to my knowledge.

The only poll I found is form 2009 but the results are pretty clear 83% against softer gun laws:
wiadomosci.wp.pl/kat,1347,title,Sondaz-Polacy-nie-chca-wiekszego-dostepu-do-broni,wid,11327314,martykul.html

Even with increase of 10% (and I doubt there is such increase) you are talking of over 70% of society against changes giving easier access.
Do you have any proof to the contrary? Beside talking to your friends that is?

Those are YOUR words as they DO want the right to own and carry a gun.

But they didn't use the rights they have. It's not like they were stopped from owning a gun, is it?

You are a Bleeding Heart Liberal who thinks what is good for you is good for everyone else.

I seems to me it's you who are trying to say what's good for Polish ppl even thought you are not even a resident in this country.

BTW, I would really appreciate it if you stopped your childish catchphrases and writing in CAPITALS when you respond to me.
peterweg 37 | 2,320
13 Aug 2016 #1,019
People didn't use to get their heads cut off, blown up and raped in public either.

Not that its relevant, but in Poland its doesn't happen now.

I seems to me it's you who are trying to say what's good for Polish ppl even thought you are not even a resident in this country.

And he knows nothing about Poland either.

The Polish people understand that they are not as safe as they once were. (Especially when NATO pulls out)

And he supports the destruction of Nato with his pro Trump views
Ironside 50 | 10,814
13 Aug 2016 #1,020
The only poll I found is form 2009 but the results are pretty clear 83% against softer gun laws:

Well, about the same number of Poles thinks that homosexuality is not normal. Which is pretty high if you think about all those grand's and money that are being send from abroad including America to promote and impose different views and standing on the issue. Still, you think that is nothing wrong with people that would like to force pro-gay legislation on Poland - that hypocrisy.

Even with increase of 10% (and I doubt there is such increase) you are talking of over 70% of society against changes giving easier access.

Even if your estimate is correct that doesn't negate anything Johnny said. There IS an increase and people have a right to rise and awareness and to whippy up support, prepare a ground, educate people for such a legislation to be introduced in Poland at the later date.

There is no reason why people should be able to arm themselves if they wish to do so.

But they didn't use the rights they have.

Those right equal no right at all. Unless you are cozy with a local commandant of the police.


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