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The right to own guns: would you support such legislation in Poland?


Ironside 50 | 10,814
21 Aug 2016 #1,081
But you can make it less easy for them.

We're going in circles. What difference does it make easer, harder, an ax instead of gun. Where is a will there is a way.

On a whole you cannot justify guns restrictions by bringing in criminals. Criminals are criminals they don't worry about laws and rules or morals. Why anyone would make laws for law abiding citizen and worry about criminals - it doesn't make sense.

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To be fair I don't think it would be on the same scale either, but there would be an increase in gun deaths

Possibly, that could happen, that stand to logic. Want is more precious? What ranks higher - freedom or life?
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This argument has been used many times by those in support of guns.

Probably because it is a very good argument. One that exposes lots of hot air about guns and cut to the chase.
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Cars serve a necessary purpose

I disagree, trains, trams, buses, planes could be used instead. The only reason you would be rather using cars is a personal comfort.
It is easer to you to use a car, plus you are familiar, used to it. So you ignore dangers and risk or rather you take it as a part of a parcel.

Why? Because in your mind benefits of owning a car overweight risk that causes.
That is. There is no any other reason.
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They are NOT necessary

That is what you believe in. I disagree. That is only your opinion and point of view. S one you're entitled to of course but no better or worse than other opinions on the matter. I would like to hear compelling arguments that support your opinion. :)

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Nobody actually needs to have one.

Once you start making decisions for others, where would you stop?
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What benefits?

Benefit of leading your life in a considerable freedom. Benefit of having an option. Benefits of self-reliance....
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Too damn right they would!

Fear doesn't go hand in hand with a reason.
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but my chances of being shot with one are very, very low.

That wouldn't change. After all your changes are much greater to be killed in a traffic right now. I doubt that would change with guns around.

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That seems to me to be quite logical reasoning.

It is logical reasoning but for it to make a compelling argument you would have to be consistent. Remember cars, reads, accidents? Ban cars, ban guns - completing argument. Guns - bad, cars - ok - no argument.

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You really think crime stats wouldn't increase?

Not long term.
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Having a gun does not guarantee your safety

Nothing guarantee your safety. Having a gun even odds and gives you a standing change to defend yourself. Why would you begrudge people of chance to do that?

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Chemikiem 7 | 2,477
21 Aug 2016 #1,082
What ranks higher - freedom or life?

The lives of those that guns would inevitably impact upon if guns were freely available to all.

You haven't given me one good reason in support for gun ownership,only that you feel it is your right to have one for self-defence purposes.

Have you ever needed one for that purpose? I somehow doubt it.
Under what circumstances would you justify using a gun anyway? Someone breaks into your home so you shoot them? I think it would be you going to prison for a long time. You would have to prove in a court that your life was in danger to justify shooting someone, and how likely is that to happen, in Poland or the UK? I would think it far more likely that if guns were legal, you would find an armed burglar in your home.

People in Poland don't need them for self-defence either, because violent crime is rare in the country. Why do you think that Poland does allow gun ownership for self-defence but on very strict grounds? Simply because people are rarely in the situation that justifies the need to be armed, which is why so few gun licences on those grounds are granted. There is NO NEED for them to be.

That should be changed because you feel you should have the right to be armed? You value your personal freedom over peoples' lives? Don't you think that's a rather selfish point of view?

Blimey Iron, if I didn't know better, I'd have thought you were American ;)

Probably because it is a very good argument.

I think it's a very poor argument. You are comparing guns to cars as intentional killing tools. When people die as the result of crashes, those deaths are accidental, people do not purposely take their cars and go out with the intention of using them as a means to kill people, in contrast to guns, where their intended use is to cause death.

You are trying to justify deaths caused by accidental means with those resulting from a deliberate choice? Really?

As regards numbers, the last report from 2013 stated that there was only a 1% difference in the number of road deaths to those from guns, the gap is closing. If numbers are so important to you, what happens if number of gun deaths exceeds those due to car accidents? Gun supporters will undoubtedly find a new comparison which better serves their argument;)

I disagree, trains, trams, buses, planes could be used instead

Come on Iron, it's not practical and you know it.

So you ignore dangers and risk or rather you take it as a part of a parcel.

I don't ignore them, but I accept those risks yes. But if I were to die in a car crash, it would be the result of an accident, not a deliberate act.

Now you will argue what does it matter, dead is dead, but I think it would very much matter to those I leave behind wouldn't it?

I would like to hear compelling arguments that support your opinion. :)

I think I have covered my reasons for not supporting the right to carry guns, but you haven't given me any reasons or benefits as to why you, or Polish people, should do :-)

As far as I am concerned, no deaths resulting from the use of a gun are acceptable, they are entirely preventable in fact.
Do you think Poland would benefit as a country if it's citizens were allowed to carry guns? What about the extra costs this would incur? You would definitely need more police for the inevitable increase in crime. If you read that Kraków post article I linked to, armed response units had to be sent from Warsaw to Sanok to deal with the gunman who shot 2 people. That's 200 kms away! Yes, gun crime is so rare there, clearly they didn't have police on hand to cope with the situation.

Benefit of leading your life in a considerable freedom. Benefit of having an option. Benefits of self-reliance....

How exactly would owning a gun give you 'considerable freedom' when you wouldn't be able to walk down the street with it, and chances are you will never ever need to use it? It will most probably be polished and oiled now and again and locked away. As for the benefits of having an option and self-reliance, I doubt it would ever be legal in Poland or the UK, to be able to carry a gun in public places, so you are looking at occasion of finding an intruder in your home.

If you arrive home to find someone in your house,most likely you won't have a gun within reach to start with. If you are in and don't hear someone break in, same result.

Might be handy if you wake up at night and hear someone break in and your gun is next to your bed, but hopefully you won't shoot a member of your own family who possibly can't sleep and is wandering around ;)

The whole thing is ridiculous to me, in order to feel safe in your own home, you would need a gun for each room or walk about wearing one all the time, which is why Americans usually have multiple guns.

I am just content to have securely locked doors and windows myself!

After all your changes are much greater to be killed in a traffic right now

Yes because guns are illegal.

Having a gun even odds and gives you a standing change to defend yourself

You live in a safe country. I could understand your argument if for example you were living in a war zone, but as it stands, your chances of being the victim of a violent crime are slim. Do you feel that unsafe where you are living such that you need a gun?

We are deffo not going to agree on this either! Regardless of what you say, I think the safety of the population would be compromised with the legalisation of guns, this is proven with gun deaths in other European countries. There is simply no need to arm a safe country.
Ironside 50 | 10,814
21 Aug 2016 #1,083
That should be changed because you feel you should have the right to be armed? You value your personal freedom over peoples' lives?

The right to self-defense is the most fundamental aspect of individualism. Even if it doesn't benefit the collective because an individual matter more than collective.

Defending your life is a basic human right and a basic moral good. All dictators and tyrannies started with taking away guns from the people.

Soviets, Hitler's Germany and so forth.
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You haven't given me one good reason in support for gun ownership

Happy now?:)
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only that you feel it is your right to have one for self-defence purposes

No, I feel that a free citizen in a free country should justify his shopping habits.
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Someone breaks into your home so you shoot them? I think it would be you going to prison for a long time.

The law should be changed accordingly.
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People in Poland don't need them for self-defence either,

That is not a question of a need but of a right. I think Poles should have that right given back to them.
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Why do you think that Poland does allow gun ownership for self-defence but on very strict grounds?

Because law and mentality in Poland is pretty much in a grip of what I would term as post-commie withdraw syndrome. That changes slowly.
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When people die as the result of crashes, those deaths are accidental, people do not purposely take their cars and go out with the intention of using them as a means to kill people

Well, sometimes they do take their cars and use as means to kill people. Example of France spring to mind.
If you die, you die. I'm sure those people don't care if they have been killed with a gun, a care or a hammer.

The latter is the most cited cause of dead in the USA, ahead of ah so deadly rifles. according to FBI roughly twice as much people have been killed with fist, legs, hammers than with shot to dead with rifles of any kind:

ucr.fbi.gov/crime-in-the-u.s/2014/crime-in-the-u.s.-2014/tables/table-20
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If numbers are so important to you, what happens if number of gun deaths exceeds those due to car accidents?

Nothing, I was asking you because it was you who have been talking about mortality rate as an argument. I think I have aptly turned table on you and expected your real motives. Irrational fear of guns.

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Come on Iron, it's not practical and you know it.

It is a very practical solution. Often defenders of the nature are using it. Had been using it before their case have been overtaken by commies from the on side and special interest groups from the other.

Trains, trams, public transport is generally cheaper, most effective, saves resource and reduced number of a road casualties. That is an irrefutable fact. On the other hand a car is more convenient, individualist means of transport.

I have nothing against cars. On the other hand I think you should if you want to remain consistent in your reasoning?
Either you care about number of dead or you don't!
Seems that you don't!
Conclusion is simple - an irrational fear of guns that you simply justly in that way. Do you think that parents who lost their kids in that terrorist attack in France - say - at least they my beloved child had been run over by a truck rather then mowed down by the terrible terrible gun.

Ridiculous premise.
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But if I were to die in a car crash, it would be the result of an accident, not a deliberate act.

:D That is a good one Chemikiem. I lest I die from a good tool misused by some drunk dikehead, not from one of those terrible, awful, evil guns made for killing. That funny! :DDD

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Do you think Poland would benefit as a country if it's citizens were allowed to carry guns?

I'm certain, plus that is what a free country should do.
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The whole thing is ridiculous to me,

Yes, because you hail from a class society and doesn't see anything wrong with a fact that those on the top have their security people armed protecting them and so forth. They have no problem with owning or obtaining any gun that would like to have.

Plebs on the other hand that is either different matter. They should know their place and obey their betters. Let scare them with a tall tales of evil guns.

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You live in a safe country.

Don't be silly. Even the most safe country in the world is only relatively safe..
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Do you feel that unsafe where you are living such that you need a gun?

That is not the question of feelings or needs. ~It is about principles.
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should justify

Shouldn't justify - typo.
Chemikiem 7 | 2,477
21 Aug 2016 #1,084
Defending your life is a basic human right and a basic moral good. All dictators and tyrannies started with taking away guns from the people.

At the present time, who would you be defending it from? Poland is not under the rule of a dictator either.

The law should be changed accordingly.

So you wouldn't just be content with the right to arm yourself, the law should be changed so that you don't get to go to prison for shooting an intruder? That's how I am reading your response to my question. Either that or you think you should have the right to shoot anyone breaking into your home?

I think Poles should have that right given back to them

Why? In case of future invasion? The Poland of today is a very different country than when that right was taken away after the war.

Because law and mentality in Poland is pretty much in a grip of what I would term as post-commie withdraw syndrome

The gun laws were relaxed in 2011. Prior to that the right to issue gun permits was given to the police. Now they no longer have that right of veto, so things have changed. Whether it goes any further remains to be seen, but with the crime rate being so low, there is no justification for change.

according to FBI roughly twice as much people have been killed with fist, legs, hammers than with shot to dead with rifles of any kind:

Nice try Iron, and what you say is true, but you neglected to include handguns, shotguns, and 'other guns' as cited. We are not just talking about rifles, but all firearms. A hammer is the most cited cause of death? In the relevant year, 2014, 435 people were killed by hammers and other blunt objects, and this is indeed more than the 248 dead due to rifles, but of the 11,961 murders committed that year, 8124 of them were gunshot deaths.

In fact from your source for that year, 67.9% of the murders, over two thirds, were down to guns. Don't you think that's rather scary?

Contrast that with Poland in 2014. There were 93 gun deaths, 14 of them unintentional:-

gunpolicy.org/firearms/region/poland

There were no 2014 figures for the UK , but in 2013, there were 144 deaths from gunshots.

gunpolicy.org/firearms/region/united-kingdom

I think the figures speak for themselves. Neither of those countries needs a change which would lead to an increase in those figures.

your real motives. Irrational fear of guns

It really isn't that. I am sure that most gun owners are sensible, law abiding citizens. But not all of them are, and the criminals certainly aren't, and those are the ones I would worry about. Plus add to that accidental shootings etc, and there is not one reason I can think of that would convince me that guns are a good idea to make available to the general public.

public transport is generally cheaper, most effective, saves resource and reduced number of a road casualties

I agree, but it's not going to happen is it? Plus, road deaths would be reduced but not prevented.
What are you going to suggest next then, that we ban other things which actually serve a purpose too?

On the other hand I think you should if you want to remain consistent in your reasoning?

My answer is as I said before

You are trying to justify deaths caused by accidental means with those resulting from a deliberate choice

parents who lost their kids in that terrorist attack in France - say - at least they my beloved child had been run over by a truck rather then mowed down by the terrible terrible gun.

You've missed the point. Whether parents lost their children due to that lorry in France, as a result of a the Brussels airport bomb etc, or being shot by a gun, the point is that all those deaths are the result of intentional and deliberate acts. They are not the result of an accident.

I lest I die from a good tool misused by some drunk dikehead, not from one of those terrible, awful, evil guns made for killing. That funny! :DDD

At least you can laugh about it ;)
As I was writing that post earlier, I actually knew you were going to introduce drink driving into the equation! Still not a deliberate choice to kill someone though. It is a deliberate choice to get into a car and drive while under the influence, and people who cause death in this way should be given far harsher sentences than those currently allowed, but people who do that don't do it with the intention of killing someone, even if that is the end result.

Even the most safe country in the world is only relatively safe..

Have you ever been in a situation in Poland or the UK that would justify you owning a gun?
Dreamergirl 4 | 276
21 Aug 2016 #1,085
This thread is pointless, discussing an issue that does not and will not affect Poland. It is a cover story for the Americans on here to discuss yet another American issue. Mods-close the thread
mafketis 24 | 8,888
22 Aug 2016 #1,086
It is a cover story for the Americans on here to discuss yet another American issue

That's how we do things in America, comrade.
Ironside 50 | 10,814
26 Aug 2016 #1,087
At the present time, who would you be defending it from?

Honestly if you ask such a question you're missing the point already.
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Either that or you think you should have the right to shoot anyone breaking into your home?

Sure, why not?
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Why?

Just because it is the right thing to do.
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but with the crime rate being so low

You mean crime rate with a firearm involved. As if that would make any difference to a victim. Please.
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Nice try Iron

Well, go back to deaths related to traffic accidents. You haven't addressed that one in any sort o logical and satisfactory argument./
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It really isn't that.

In my mind it is. After all that would explain neatly why you're grasping at straws fending off my well formed and logical augments:)

It isn't a 'cool' reason to be sure but I'm not going to hold it against you.
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Plus, road deaths would be reduced but not prevented.

Ban the cars, every time you drive your car you're creating a potentially dangerous situation for yourself and others.
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but people who do that don't do it with the intention of killing someone, even if that is the end result.

That worse, in the way guns are safer than cars!
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Have you ever been in a situation....

As I said, that is not about me, its about principles... Also I'm not going to post my personal experiences on a internet forum. Especially that it doesn't serve any purpose and doesn't further our debate. I propose to focus our talk on few key issues, because in my opinion we are going in circles returning to the same pivotal points again and again only dressing it differently. That is if you feel like it:)
peterweg 37 | 2,320
26 Aug 2016 #1,088
That's how we do things in America, comrade.

Talk endlessly about irrelevant garbage?

I'd sugguest we have a discussion about installing Communism in the USA and setting up Putin as President for Life. But only Crow would be bonkers enough to think it would be really good idea that needs debating.

Yet you Americans insist on discussing moronic *****, of the same level, on Polish Forum.

And Jonny Reb, does he ever discuss Poland, he apparently knows nothing about it.
dolnoslask 6 | 3,085
26 Aug 2016 #1,089
Well I guess the guns in private hands debate will go round in circles, I can understand the views and concerns of both sides, but hey in Poland you can legally own a taser and a can of pepper spray, that's more than enough firepower to keep any random loony PF stalker at bay (unless they had a handgun of course), ownership of these items in the UK would carry a mandatory four year jail term.
EricWojo - | 2
30 Aug 2016 #1,090
What are the current gun laws in Poland? From what I remember owning a shotgun or rifle wasn't that big of a deal. I know they had very strict handgun laws though.
johnny reb 28 | 4,574
30 Aug 2016 #1,091
And Jonny Reb, does he ever discuss Poland, he apparently knows nothing about it.

More than I use to by coming here Petie, isn't that what the P.F. is all about ?
I share with my Polish friends the gun laws in the U.S. that they are inquisitive about and the actual statistics that the news media puts a spin on in order to sensationalize how bad handguns are or just leaves out of the story.

Polish people need to get the all the facts before supporting such a legislation.
For example there have been 800 killings in Chicago this year with handguns.
The part the media does not report is that NONE of those killings involved a member of the National Rifle Association. (N.R.A.)
Not a damn one !
The media leaves those critical facts out.
Point being that responsible people with no criminal record or mental issues should have the right to protect themselves, their families and their property with a gun if the time ever came they needed to.

People like

Have you ever needed one for that purpose?

Having a gun in a life and death situation is like having a parachute Chem, you will probably never need one but if you don't have one when you do need one you will never need one again.
peterweg 37 | 2,320
30 Aug 2016 #1,092
More than I use to by coming here Petie, isn't that what the P.F. is all about ?

If your knowledge of Poland has been increased by coming here, I guess you starterted with Zero.

I share with my Polish friends the gun laws in the U.S. that they are inquisitive about and the actual statistics that the news media puts a spin on in order to sensationalize how bad handguns are or just leaves out of the story.

Some unusual friends you have there. My Polish gun owning family and friends could not give a flying F*** about the US gun laws, statistics or hand gun ownership in general. They have all the guns the want and need, for hunting for fun for whatever. Killing people or defending themselves against an non existant threat doesn't even enter it.

Polish people need to get the all the facts before supporting such a legislation.

They are not interested in the facts, guns or legislation. You are, apparetly its an obsession. But nobody on this side of the Atlantic considers it worthy of debate.
Chemikiem 7 | 2,477
30 Aug 2016 #1,093
Sure, why not?

Even in the states you can't get away with doing that, you have to be able to prove your life is in danger or you would be facing a murder/manslaughter charge. Not only do you think you should have the right to own a gun, you are advocating taking the law into your own hands.

There are far easier ways to deter burglars. Get a decent alarm system and a guard dog for starters ;)

Just because it is the right thing to do

That's not much of an answer and I think the majority of Poles would disagree with you. I'm sure they are a happy to live in a country with a very low crime rate and wouldn't want anything which would undoubtedly change that.

You mean crime rate with a firearm involved.

I can't believe that you would seriously think that by arming the general population, there wouldn't be an increase in gun deaths. There would. That is a fact.

But no, the crime rate in Poland is very low generally, and it has been falling year after year. In 2014, according to Polish police statistics, there were just over 915,000 offences reported, not bad for a population of over 38,000,000 people.

osac.gov/pages/ContentReportDetails.aspx?cid=17806

For last year, 833,281

osac.gov/pages/ContentReportDetails.aspx?cid=19148

In fact, those police statistics say that Poland is one of the safest countries in Europe.

You haven't addressed that one in any sort o logical and satisfactory argument./

I believe I have. You cannot justify death by intentional acts of violence with death caused by accidental means. If you want cars banned, then by your justification, knives and any other objects that actually serve a purpose should be banned too. Guns have only one purpose, to kill.

why you're grasping at straws fending off my well formed and logical augments:)

That's really funny :D
There is no logic to your arguments. You want Poland armed because you think it is the right of the Polish people.

1) Just because you want a gun, you cannot speak for the rest of the population.
2) Why bring about a change in the law which would increase an already low crime rate? There really is no logic whatsoever in that.

I'm not going to post my personal experiences on a internet forum.

I wouldn't have asked you to, but I'm willing to bet that you and probably the rest of PF's posters haven't been in a life or death situation which warranted the use of a gun, unless there are people here who have seen active duty in the forces. If that is the case, then of course I would have argued that if you haven't needed to be armed up until now, there's a very good chance that you won't ever need to be. You are not living in Syria.

in my opinion we are going in circles returning to the same pivotal points again and again only dressing it differently.

Yes we are and I feel we are at stalemate on this issue. Poland isn't going to change it's gun laws in the foreseeable future, so all this is academic.

One of the other arguments often heard on here, is that the good guys need guns to even up the odds because the bad guys have them. This is the American point of view, and unfortunately, those who advocate this reason have never lived in a country where guns are banned, so they cannot understand the concept of living somewhere where they are just not needed. Of course, they are also completely missing the point that if there were no guns, there would be far less of a problem. Remember that 69.7% of homicides in the US ( from my previous data ), are down to guns. Americans are unfortunately reaping what they have sown, by making guns available to all, it is impossible to stop the bad guys getting hold of them.

People are not stupid. They watch TV and read the news. They can see the problems America has with guns, the mass shootings, school massacres etc, and it doesn't matter what justification Americans make for these events ( usually mental illness, gang culture etc ), the simple fact is that these events would not be happening if guns were taken out of the equation. This has been proven in the UK and Australia which changed their gun laws in response to tragedies of this kind.

As Obama said after the Oregon shooting, and on this subject I think he is spot on:-
the President said "inaction" on gun control legislation makes all Americans "answerable" for the violence.

He added that the nation has become "numb" to mass shootings, which have become "routine" occurrences in America.

"As I said just a few months ago, and I said just a few months before that, and I said each time we see one of these mass shootings, our thoughts and prayers are not enough," he said.

"We are not the only country on Earth who has people with mental illnesses who want to do harm to other people."
"(But) we are the only advanced country on Earth who sees these kinds of mass shootings every few months."

How can anyone with a brain in their head argue with that?
Ironside 50 | 10,814
20 Oct 2016 #1,094
Even in the states you can't get away with doing that

Well, actually you can. Admittedly it depends on a state you reside in.
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There are far easier ways to deter burglars

Personal experience?:) Those methods are not easier and even if they are where is personal choice in that?
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In fact, those police statistics say that Poland is one of the safest countries in Europe.

Guns wouldn't make it more dangerous.
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You cannot justify death by intentional acts of violence with death caused by accidental means

Hey, France a truck as a tool to mass murder - rigs a bell? anything can be used to kill, guns can be used also for self-defence, they can and in fact do save lives.

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Why bring about a change in the law which would increase an already low crime rate? There really is no logic whatsoever in that.

There is no logical connection between number and gun in a country and number of committed crimes. Its defies the logic as if a gun would turn people into cold blood killers. Please!

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bet that you and probably the rest of PF's posters haven't been in a life or death situation which warranted the use of a gun,

Get rid of your fire alarm and a fire extinguisher, you haven't need them in a situation which warranted the use of them.
Guns for a regular person are like a insurance, you'll have no need for it 99% of the time but if you need it then its a life saver. If you don't need it at all what the harm? Such a additional insurance policy should be personal choice.

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This is the American point of view,

I would say that is a logical point of view. If you are a woman accosted by four to five thugs you are in a deep trouble unless you're a teen ninja hero in disguise. Having a gun (and a know how to use it) even those odds. Right?

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They can see the problems America has with guns

They watch TV and they hear a liberal, anti-gun propaganda. Reality on the ground is a different kettle of fish.
America has no problems with guns, America has problem with a ghetto culture/life style supported by the Democratic Party, plus outdated laws regarding a mentally ill people, plus open door policy for Illegal immigration from the south, plus the anchor baby law.

All that can be fixed if there was a political consensus to do so.
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As Obama said

Obama is no a credible person. He flame a racial tension, and then he steps in, saying - hey I can cure it! He is like a fireman who start the fire and is first to fight it to claim a credit as a hero. Sad!

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Poland2016
21 Oct 2016 #1,095
Mods, this is an off topic subject with no connection to Poland so why remove comments asking for it to be closed? It's not an 'off-topic' subject.
Magnum_357
4 Nov 2016 #1,096
In Poland you can buy firearms without a permit nor registration, and even bear them loaded on you in a public place legally without any licence recquired: it's the black powder guns (since 2011). Usually "Old West" and "Secession War" reliquiae, that can hold 6 cartridges of .45 calibre powerful loads, some of the revolvers are quite compact and easy to conceal. You can buy them easily on the internet.

Also, since last year a sport shooting permit gives you the right for concealed carry in a public place.

You can also buy firearms in any EU/EFTA country where gun laws are more accessible and easier than in Poland for some types of weapons (per ex., modern handguns and military rifles), and import them easily to Poland with a European Firearm Passport and an invitation for hunting or shooting in a given club or competition.

To buy cartridges you need to show a gun permit, there is no limitation on purchase, hollow points bullets are legal, there is no limitation on magazines capacity. Silencers are illegal to be fixed on a gun, but possession isn't restricted.

I find Polish firearms laws to be pretty liberal, even comparing to some US states.
Chemikiem 7 | 2,477
5 Nov 2016 #1,097
where is personal choice in that?

Where personal choice impacts on other peoples' lives I beg to differ. While I am certainly not in agreement with anyone breaking into a house to commit robbery, it's another thing entirely to shoot them dead, as you feel you should have the right to do. Plus you seem to be forgetting that the person breaking into a house may well be armed too, and they in all likelihood will have the element of surprise. You can't just restrict gun ownership for home protection and that is the problem.

Guns wouldn't make it more dangerous.

So you don't think there would be a single shooting if Polish citizens had the right to own guns? Don't make me laugh! Even super safe Switzerland has gun crime, albeit low, and people there are extensively trained in the use of firearms.

If you are a woman accosted by four to five thugs you are in a deep trouble

Having a gun (and a know how to use it) even those odds

So you are now advocating the right to carry in public or are you talking about thugs breaking into your home?
Either way, there is a problem with that scenario. A woman immediately outnumbered in such a situation will probably not even have a chance to get out her gun, and if she did, in all likelihood she is going to have it taken off her. Plus, her attackers will very likely have guns too. In a situation like that, a gun will only be any good if the person has had extensive training and doesn't panic.

Having a gun will not really even those odds when you are outnumbered. Out on the streets, there is every chance a member of the public might get caught up in the situation and shot just for being in the wrong place at the wrong time. Did you think about that?

They watch TV and they hear a liberal, anti-gun propaganda. Reality on the ground is a different kettle of fish.

They watch TV and see the aftermath of these massacres, the school shootings, they hear how many people have been killed. You can't argue with that, or the 69.7% of homicides there due to guns. That is not anti-gun propaganda, that is a real figure. Iron, do you really think the average Pole is going to worry about whether the shootings are committed by gangs, mentally ill people etc? They know, just as people from countries all over the world know, that thousands of people die in the States each year because of the right to bear arms. Why on earth would they want that for their nice safe country? Really it's just a no brainer.

Obama is no a credible person

I'm not going to get into an argument on the rights and wrongs of Obama, but that does not mean he is wrong with this statement:-

"We are not the only country on Earth who has people with mental illnesses who want to do harm to other people."
"(But) we are the only advanced country on Earth who sees these kinds of mass shootings every few months."

If you disagree with his statement, then please explain why instead of saying that he is not a credible person.
dolnoslask 6 | 3,085
5 Nov 2016 #1,098
@Magnum_357 pretty well summed up the way things are in Poland, whether all these old black powder firearms would go off if someone pulled the trigger is another question, but many people have them stashed away just in case.

The old saying here is , A neighbor asks his neighbor why he is watering his window boxes in winter the neighbor replies I am not watering the plants I am oiling my guns.
jon357 66 | 16,187
6 Dec 2016 #1,099
A new survey - 79% of Poles do not want gun laws to be relaxed:
bankier.pl/wiadomosc/Sondaz-Polacy-nie-chca-latwiejszego-dostepu-do-broni-7488001.html
johnny reb 28 | 4,574
13 Feb 2017 #1,100
your real motives. Irrational fear of guns.

That seems to be her phobia.
Perhaps if Poland were to have mandatory gun safety & shooting classes for all ten year olds that it may relax the bias fears that have been instilled that guns are a bad thing.

Those classes most certainly would create more enthusiasm for responsible gun ownership.
In doing so there would be no doubt Poland would support such legislation from the new enthusiasm these classes would create.
NoToForeigners 10 | 1,049
13 Feb 2017 #1,101
Poland is a very safe country and firearms would only make things worse. We don't need guns and we don't want guns. End of story and nothing to discuss anymore.

80% of Poles think that Poland is a safe country.
95% of Poles describe the area they live in as peaceful and quiet.
37% of Poles feel that the crime risk is getting even lower.

wpolityce.pl/m/spoleczenstwo/289220-cbos-wiekszosc-polakow-czuje-sie-bezpiecznie-w-swoim-kraju
johnny reb 28 | 4,574
13 Feb 2017 #1,102
We don't need guns and we don't want guns.

Thank you for your personal opinion.

End of story and nothing to discuss anymore.

Not necessarily as others here may beg to differ with that personal opinion of yours also.
This is why training the youth of Poland in gun safety and shooting classes would alleviate such ignorant biasness with education.
A sport that many would enjoy.
NoToForeigners 10 | 1,049
13 Feb 2017 #1,103
Not at the cost of higher gun crime.

Go make the same poll in USA.

Thank you for your personal opinion.

No it's not. 80% of Poles don't want easier access to firearms.
dziennikzachodni.pl/polska-i-swiat/a/sondaz-polacy-nie-chca-dostepu-do-broni,11544982
johnny reb 28 | 4,574
13 Feb 2017 #1,104
80% of Poles don't want easier access to firearms.

This is why education is so important.
The fear that has been instilled back in the Communist days still lingers in Poland.

Not at the cost of higher gun crime.

Actually violent crime is much higher when guns have been banned in a country.
Take the U.K. for example where violent crime rose by 48% when guns were confiscated.
I am only suggesting that responsible people have the option to be trained in the safety and shooting of a gun.
This will slowly educate the people of Poland that guns are not evil as many of you here suggest.
Actually they are quite fun to shoot and enjoy not to mention the extra home security that they give a person.
NoToForeigners 10 | 1,049
13 Feb 2017 #1,105
Actually violent crime is much higher when guns have been banned in a country.

Really? Let's see. USA compared to Poland... Hmmm seems you're lying again.

This is why education is so important.

Hahahaha. Dude understand it. POLES KNOW THEY DONT NEED GUNS. There is only fear about guns being more easily obtainable for criminals and psychos. Communism has nothing to do with that. It's called common sense which you seem to be lacking. Poland isn't USA. Average Pole isn't afraid to go outside because his neighbour can carry a gun and have a bad day.

Stop with your propaganda. You can obviously own a gun in your country so you should be happy. Now please stop enforcing such laws on another country and people you have no idea about.
Marsupial - | 886
13 Feb 2017 #1,106
Nor do we need any guns here either. Too late for usa the hideously gun riddled dump that it is. Most of us don't even consider it a 1st world country anymore with all the shootings. Looks like 3rd world. Won't be going there on holidays or spending money. Poland doesnt need guns nor does any 1st world country. Good luck in your gun laden united states of africa.
Marsupial - | 886
13 Feb 2017 #1,108
The murder rate in the Usa clearly shows that the law and order concept has failed there. After catrina and other examples where people were left to fend for themselves and crime took over clearly shows that the US could not respond to its own needs as a first world country would. The soldiers sent to fight overseas are in far less danger than your own citizens therefore those who stayed behind are the heroes. The lucky few who escaped to the army to be sent to the relative safety of a warzone overseas must be counting their blessings.
Ironside 50 | 10,814
14 Feb 2017 #1,109
The murder rate in the Usa

stop that nonsense, gangsta kill other gangsta mostly, occasionally some cop or law abiding citizen get into crossfire.
Apart from the ghetto zones and some cities - the rest of the country is not more dangerous that an average European country regardless of the fact that number of guns per person is like 1000 times greater.
TheOther 5 | 3,711
14 Feb 2017 #1,110
the rest of the country is not more dangerous that an average European country

True for rural areas, but unlike in Europe you still have to keep your eyes open here and be aware of your surroundings.

gangsta kill other gangsta mostly

Must be more gang bangers in Texas then than in California...

cdc.gov/nchs/pressroom/sosmap/firearm_mortality/firearm.htm


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