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The right to own guns: would you support such legislation in Poland?


Rysavy 10 | 308
22 Mar 2013 #601
If they removed all the US gun death stats

remove the firearms statistics involving youth gangs along with about 8 or 10 cities

Dont see ALL there. Might wanna read before blowing smoke...

When you go cherry-picking for crimes

and by the way..it SAYS town is SHAKEN. That is NOT everyday occurance business as usual. Not even for KY/TN. There are no feuds or Revenuers trampin t'hills a la Justified on daily basis. And even an exaggerated peek like Justifed shows it revolves around DRUGS.

Its fun to play statistical fear monger til you break it down. Some states are extremely dangerous places to live in the general neighborhoods. Some are fully armed and crime is a word.

Find an american state NOT on mexican border with size and population of Poland then do a"study".
goeurope.about.com/od/europeanmaps/l/bl-country-size-comparison-map.htm
osac.gov/Pages/ContentReportDetails.aspx?cid=12192
how about a mostly rural with a few big city place like..oh..Montana
disastercenter.com/crime/mtcrimn.htm
or same size N.M disastercenter.com/crime/nmcrimn.htm
(notice leap in murder numbers for border state)
I think California has about same population or more. That can skew it to much MORE murder
Studies like thsi are rare becuase it shows real damge-even in Clinton years ncjrs.gov/pdffiles/163496.pdf
a DOJ study that showed a skewed number of firearm murder arrestees and juveniles were mostly illegal.
During this year also was a study done of inmates incarcerated with criminal offenses by gun. Survey of Inmates in State Correctional Facilities (SISCF)
During the offense that brought them to prison, 15% of State inmates and 13% of Federal inmates carried a handgun, and about 2%, a military-style semiautomatic gun.
On average, State inmates possessing a firearm received sentences of 18 years, while those without a weapon had an average sentence of 12 years.
Among prisoners carrying a firearm during their crime, 40% of State inmates and 56% of Federal inmates received a sentence enhancement because of the firearm.
In 2009 -

An offender was armed with a gun, knife, or other object used as a weapon in an estimated 22% of all incidents of violent crime.
Offenders used firearms to commit 8% of violent crime incidents in 2009.
Robberies (47%) were the most likely crime to involve an armed offender.
Firearms (28%) were the most common weapons used in robberies.
Most rapes and assaults did not involve the use of a weapon.

Our Foreign born population as 2011 is 38 million =12+% last count. Isn't that population of Poland btw? Does Poland has 12% foregn born citizens and an open border?.

Raw data is best for big pictures. Stats are biased in criteria by the researchers conducting study. 2011 is special since it had mechanic to allow illegals to be counted if they answered the door without self incriminating questions to worry them.

America is NOT a good comparison at all to any of these squealings about guns. It is not equal nations of size and population... nor continent apple to continent orange.. is Apple to Flounder.

nationmaster.com/country/pl-poland/cri-crime
this is not as nice with raw data as the disaster site

Poland had 111 gun deaths alone that data year 2002
But from these we can say -2002- that compared to U.S., Poland with annually has more Murders (Compared to a regionally similar State of close size) MT was 16 by all methods(and for 60 years is avg 28)

or slightly less crime (compared to a border state)NM 152 with median amount 140 between 1960-2011

far far less crime (compared to state with same population as whole country- states ARE kinda like countries)than CA which btw has had restrictive gun laws in place for some time. 2395 murders. Cali hasnt had fewer murders than 1000 since late 60s.Has even broke 4k mark

And even this does not break down that Poland gun rate is compared to ALL murders in those states that year
Poland had ttl 662 murders in 2011 (and 680 in 2010). NM had ttl 156.... CA of course far more 1,792 (equal rate to Solomon Islands and Niger)
Maybe I can say by country rates 1.1>4.8 you are 3x more likely to be murdered in US. Break down by method-legality of tool and citizenship of killer. A whole new statistic .

The rampart drug cartels run by unwelcome guests from other countries. Illegal shipping- illegal immigrants who are 75% the DREGS of their former homeplace, have not yet found a way to be as prevalent.

My main point above is statistics are only as reliable as the bias of the researcher.

Personally with a very very big family and 50% of them in Southern Cal and one set of gangbanger cousins in Sanfer.. No person in my family has ever been murdered. Those bangers never killed anyone though one did time for stabbing a person and having ilegal firearm.I have lived in 11 different states and only in WA have I ever lived even near a murder (5 miles away-murder suicide DV).

For the thread question it has everything to do with how safe citizens feel, how well violent crime is stamped- hard, how many opportunities for outside criminal element (and domestic) are there.

Poland isn't that bad..still not quite so good.. as the saying goes- "can't squeeze blood from turnip". Poland has a low murder rate by most standards. One of the lowest in EU? I doubt guns would change that by much. When the first meth labs are found-then we know they in trouble ^_^

Poland would not likley be enriched by the American model of gun ownership, but guns shuold be legislated somehow if the majority of people wish to legally own some.

osac.gov/Pages/ContentReportDetails.aspx?cid=12192
oh..and here is link to recent crime studies of plans done by poland
jasondmzk
22 Mar 2013 #602
My suspicion is that when you remove the firearms statistics involving youth gangs along with about 8 or 10 cities which are recognized as out-of-control, it's fair to acknowledge that it is at least as, if not more, dangerous than the US.

Sure, because we should only make laws that affect white people in decent neighborhoods. And this is why I'm on the government's side, til the day the tanks come a'rolling down the street.
Barney 15 | 1,476
22 Mar 2013 #603
Might wanna read before blowing smoke...

Might want to think before typing rubbish.............
Do you really want to have some one explain it to you?
AmerTchr 4 | 201
22 Mar 2013 #604
Dont see ALL there. Might wanna read before blowing smoke...

They can't read very well. It happens.

Between language learners and those with tunnel-vision, the lack of reading comprehension and attention to context is endemic on this forum.

It's far more fun and useful to your agenda to distract everyone from the focus of questions and answers.

Whether you are Polish, Pakistani or American, it behooves one to stay wary of your surroundings and the intentions of those around you. The fact remains, some people believe that it is less safe in Poland than in their former residences.

Unfortunately, many are going to keep blowing smoke because they realize they have nothing of substance to comment.
Barney 15 | 1,476
22 Mar 2013 #605
They can't read very well. It happens

They in this instance being me an individual.

You are complaining about comprehension on a thread where you want to manipulate stats? You suggested that a re writing of crime stats could provide evidence to support your view point? Can you not see how ridiculous that is because its pretty damm ridiculous?

Surely Re writing crime stats to remove all gun crime would produce a better result for your point of view?

I understand the stats though I don't feel any need to manipulate them. You accuse me of having comprehension problems I'll add that to the bottom feeder label..........

Edit

Unfortunately, many are going to keep blowing smoke because they realize they have nothing of substance to comment.

You keep saying the same thing but refuse to explain the bar talk you indulge in. Perhaps you also believe in a secret orgainsation that will counter government opression.
ZIMMY 6 | 1,601
22 Mar 2013 #606
The Amendment entire is in the language of the 18th century

So was the whole American Constitution. Truth is eternal.

You want people to be allowed to only have weaponry that was envisioned being available at the time that document was written?

No; I'd rather fight a tyrannical government with modern weapons.

People ARE being killed needlessly day after day by the glut of guns that are out there....

No, they are killed by thugs, usually gang members who shoot each other as well as innocent victims. They obtain guns illegally and don't subject themselves to background checks.

Offenders used firearms to commit 8% of violent crime incidents in 2009.

The way the gun grabbers make it sound, it's as if they commit 100%.....

we should only make laws that affect white people in decent neighborhoods

Your sarcasm aside, the fact is that legal gun owners have the lowest incidence of gun violence, yet they are the ones who are being assaulted by the government bureaucrats who always know what's best for us (more sarcasm).
Barney 15 | 1,476
22 Mar 2013 #607
No; I'd rather fight a tyrannical government with modern weapons.

Would you care to explain how you would go about doing that?
AmerTchr 4 | 201
22 Mar 2013 #608
Your sarcasm aside, the fact is that legal gun owners have the lowest incidence of gun violence, yet they are the ones who are being assaulted by the government bureaucrats who always know what's best for us (more sarcasm).

Kudos to you ZImmy, you're seeing through the smoke and mirrors they attempt to use for deflection.

If you ever come through Gdansk, the first round is on me.
jasondmzk
22 Mar 2013 #609
If you ever come through Gdansk, the first round is on me.

"Round". No pun intended, I'm sure. Guns are made for killing, and they don't care whom they kill. This racist view that gang-bangers with illegal guns are causing all the trouble is disproved day after day after day. Smoke and mirrors? No, there's no deflection by anyone. You just have your hands over your eyes and ears and are being willfully ignorant. You choose to believe whatever buttresses your "guvmint gone come and take my [x]" conspiracy theory of the moment. Guns are killing and being used to kill by the EXACT people you are fighting to keep them in the hands of.
Barney 15 | 1,476
22 Mar 2013 #610
you're seeing through the smoke and mirrors

Smoke and mirrors?
It's clear that the gun crowd cannot answer any questions and why should they when hollow, half understood slogans are so much easier to mouth.
ZIMMY 6 | 1,601
22 Mar 2013 #611
ZIMMY: No; I'd rather fight a tyrannical government with modern weapons.
Would you care to explain how you would go about doing that?

Give me a hypothetical situation and I'll gladly explain.....

This racist view that gang-bangers with illegal guns are causing all the trouble is disproved day after day after day.

Ah, the 'race card' in all its overused glory strikes again. I'll speak of Chicago. Last year there were 511 murders in the city. 450 of the murders were minority-on-minority so you do the math. Almost always, the guns were obtained illegally as the criminal records of the gangsta's prohibit them from obtaining firearms.

Seems your liberal views blind you from the facts.

edit: Barney notes: "the gun crowd cannot answer any questions..."
You wouldn't understand the answer if it sat on your lap and called you 'honey' :)
BBman - | 344
22 Mar 2013 #612
I wish we had gun laws up here that would allow us to use guns for self defence purposes.
Barney 15 | 1,476
22 Mar 2013 #613
edit: Barney notes: "the gun crowd cannot answer any questions..."
You wouldn't understand the answer if it sat on your lap and called you 'honey' :)

The gun crowd keep saying that but never attempt to answer any questions. It's odd that such a vocal and apparently well reasoned lobby cannot answer any questions when asked, for example

No; I'd rather fight a tyrannical government with modern weapons.

Would you care to explain how you would go about doing that?

Give me a hypothetical situation and I'll gladly explain.....

Its your boast that you would fight surely you know when and how you would do this fighting or is it as I say a Hollow slogan with no grounding in reality?
AmerTchr 4 | 201
22 Mar 2013 #614
I wish we had gun laws up here that would allow us to use guns for self defence purposes.

Well, you can always emigrate.....

Ask yourself how strongly you feel about being able to defend yourself.

I will grant you though, that RIGHT NOW I would have to think long and hard about emigrating from Canada to the US.
ZIMMY 6 | 1,601
22 Mar 2013 #615
he gun crowd keep saying that but never attempt to answer any questions

The answers are logical and direct but they seem to bounce off you like some outer dimension you cannot comprehend. So, ask a question!

your boast that you would fight

Stating a fact is not a boast.

how you would do this fighting or is it as I say a Hollow slogan with no grounding in reality?

The reality is that legal law abiding gun owners like myself have the lowest crime rate than any other group where guns are concerned. How does taking away guns from legal owners solve the murders which are usually committed by people who are not eligible to own guns in the first place? That's the question you gun grabbers cannot answer.

Lots of people in Chicago have defended their homes from break-ins because they were armed. Usually, such home owners do not report these incidents to police because of the [still] strict gun laws in Cook County They don't want to deal with the paper work and the political hassles. These same politicos also want women to be defenseless against attacks. If the police cannot protect you than you should be allowed to protect yourself.
Barney 15 | 1,476
23 Mar 2013 #616
Zim I asked a straight question, yet again you and the gun crowd in general cannot answer.

"Fighting tyranny" is often trotted out as a reason for these hobbyists and their corporate sponsors to continue pumping weapons into society. I don't think it's unreasonable to ask for answers yet this simple point is never addressed as can be seen in this very thread.

As there is zero chance of any government allowing its self to be overthrown it is a hollow boast.
kondzior 12 | 1,196
23 Mar 2013 #617
"A well regulated Militia, being necessary to the security of a free State, the right of the people to keep and bear Arms, shall not be infringed."
Well-regulated.... means regulations.

Have you read the Federalist Papers?

Is it you who doesn't understand what a militia is? Or the Founding Fathers?

A militia used to mean every able bodied man capable of bearing arms. It got changed into a term for terrorists by Bill Clinton. So Bill Clinton redefined the word, then pointed out the Constitution wasn't in line with his redefinition. Sort of like the country being founded as a Republic and then converted ad hoc into a "democrassy," formerly called an inferior form of government for fools.

What does "well regulated" mean? It used to mean, as well equipped as possible. That means the Founding Fathers believed that the militia should be the most formidable military in the United States, far more powerful than the government.
jasondmzk
23 Mar 2013 #618
As there is zero chance of any government allowing its self to be overthrown it is a hollow boast.

A hollow and treasonous boast. And they assume that rest of the populace will stand with them. They (read: I) will not.
Barney 15 | 1,476
23 Mar 2013 #619
That means the Founding Fathers believed that the militia should be the most formidable military in the United States, far more powerful than the government.

Should there be only one militia in the US, what happens if there is more than one?
Who then decides which interpretation of the constitution is correct?
Will there be a PPV fight to the death over constitutional law?
ZIMMY 6 | 1,601
23 Mar 2013 #620
im I asked a straight question, yet again you and the gun crowd in general cannot answer.

I couldn't find your question; what is it?

"Fighting tyranny" is often trotted out as a reason for these hobbyists and their corporate sponsors to continue pumping weapons into society

The free market allows people to purchase what they want, including guns. As to "corporate sponsors", are you referring to these guys?

"All tyranny needs to gain a foothold is for people of good conscience to remain silent"...........Thomas Jefferson
"When the people fear their government there is tyranny, when the government fears the people, there is liberty"................Thomas Jefferson

"It is the first responsibility of every citizen to question authority"...................................................Ben jamin Franklin

""That government is best which governs least"......................................Thomas Paine

Much later, writer Robert A. Heinlein noted; "There is no worse tyranny than to force a man to pay for what he does not want merely because you think it would be good for him." . He must have been thinking of Obamacare and many other nanny state executive orders that government bureaucrats 'feel' are good for us.

there is zero chance of any government allowing its self to be overthrown it is a hollow boast.

They didn't think that in 1776.
AmerTchr 4 | 201
23 Mar 2013 #621
LOL, ah Zimmy........forget the round, I'll buy lunch.
4 eigner 2 | 831
23 Mar 2013 #623
Good to see that there are still some good Americans in this country.
Good man, Zimmy !!!
poziomka2 - | 29
23 Mar 2013 #624
sociopath wouldn't care. Who does that sound more like, of the two of us?

You are against guns?
Ktos 17 | 456
23 Mar 2013 #625
[quote=poziomka2]jasondmzk: Yeah, thank God it's people like you standing in the way of us "gun-grabbing psychopaths". I'm a sociopath because I don't want every guy like yourself that writes "assf*cking" SEVEnTIMES in ONE PARAGRAPH to have a lethal weapon around my kid? Myassf*cking goalis to keep kids safe and gun-related deaths to a minimum. What's your agenda? To make sure that every single person that wants one can have a gun, any time, any where? Yeah, okay. Every gun used to murder a kid was heldin private hands. And which is it, I'm a psychopath, or a sociopath for trying to keep killing machines away from people like you? A sociopath wouldn't care. Who does that sound more like, of the two of us?You are against guns?

Haha, looks like it, I didn't expect that 1. I am against guns too but what is this obsession with kids?? Gee, Such focus is narrow and disturbing, it is mostly youth and young adults who actually fall victims of gun related violence more that any other group and elderly are unfortunately attacked with armed weapon quite often too and he is talking about kids, yeah, we know Jason you have a kid, you told everyone - nice to know - but so do millions of people, nothing special. I think it's some kind of obsession, not a healthy 1 either.
jasondmzk
23 Mar 2013 #626
Oh, okay. So what's an acceptable number of juvenile homicides for you? Give me a number. And I'm obsessed with my kid's safety? Yeah, I should hope so. Do you have any that you're responsible for?
Barney 15 | 1,476
23 Mar 2013 #627
couldn't find your question; what is it?

Now Zim you know that is dishonest. I know you cannot answer the question in the same way as a bar room braggard cannot live up to his own image.

They didn't think that in 1776

The slave owners revolt?

I would take the writings of people more seriously if they were not hypocritical to the core.
The argument over taxation is equally hypocritical, these people when not living off government largesse were free loading, paying less taxes than others. It really was a case of do as I say not as I do.
Ktos 17 | 456
23 Mar 2013 #628
Oh, okay. So what's an acceptable number of juvenile homicides for you? Give me a number. And I'm obsessed with my kid's safety? Yeah, I should hope so. You're obsessed with Jews, but do you have any that you're responsible for?

The way you structured your response seems like I ignored juvenile gun related deaths or injuries, well I didn't I merely responded to you one sided rambling about kids and guns as if only kids could be victims of guns and that would be the single reason for disallowing the possession of guns by civilians in Poland. In other words, if kids were not to effected by guns then it would be ok to have guns right? That is your argument. Even if it wasn't your intension to make it so, it looks like it because of your comments.
jasondmzk
23 Mar 2013 #629
98 days since Newtown. 2,243 more dead. A 9 year old boy in the twin-cities. A 22 year-old mother not far from the Aurora Massacre. Killed with legally obtained weapons and ammunition. 2,243 dead SINCE Newtown, and America has learned very little. What have you learned?
peterweg 37 | 2,320
23 Mar 2013 #630
And who cares what Americans think about guns in Europe or Poland. There is no likelihood of guns laws loosening up.

Why is this thread full of Americans basically discussing Americans gun and gun crime problem? both are nothing to do with Poland.

American Constitution? A joke.

Defending against a tyrannical government? A joke. Don't you know what democracy is?

My family owns guns in Poland, doesn't make me feel the slightest bit safer. I'm far more likely to be harmed in an accidental shooting than anything criminal. Having guns didn't stop the hunting dogs getting nicked.


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