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The right to own guns: would you support such legislation in Poland?


AmerTchr 4 | 201
23 Mar 2013 #631
Interestingly, the so-called liberals are always keen on offering up some sort of mathematical comparison on this issue.

The anti's are obsessed with the question of "How many dead children...?"

Yet, when you ask them "How many millions of dead citizens are worth REDUCING of the PROBABILITY that a child MIGHT....?" They throw their hands up and loudly deride your question as being borne of hysteria and paranoid fantasy. The casualty lists detailing Hitler's, Stalin's, Mao's, Pol Pot's, yada, yada, yada (it's a long, long list) depredations against their own populations stands in mute testimony as to what happens when people are disarmed and made into prey.

So much for humanity and reality.

================================================================= ===================================

And who cares what Americans think about guns in Europe or Poland. There is no likelihood of guns laws loosening up.

Why is this thread full of Americans basically discussing Americans gun and gun crime problem? both are nothing to do with Poland.

American Constitution? A joke.

Defending against a tyrannical government? A joke. Don't you know what democracy is?

My family owns guns in Poland, doesn't make me feel the slightest bit safer. I'm far more likely to be harmed in an accidental shooting than anything criminal. Having guns didn't stop the hunting dogs getting nicked.

================================================================= =================================

Well actually, some of us are trying to discuss Poland's laws and situation. However, you need to accept that comparisons to the US system are inevitable.

Our opinion of your system is just as relevant to you as yours probably is to ours. Of course, many of us actually live here while only a couple of Polish people here seem to be living in the US.

You own guns in Poland? WHat do you use them for? Hunting, target shooting, what? Do you shoot often?
Ktos 17 | 456
23 Mar 2013 #632
98 days since Newtown. 2,243 more dead. A 9 year old boy in the twin-cities. A 22 year-old mother not far from the Aurora Massacre. Killed with legally obtained weapons and ammunition. 2,243 dead SINCE Newtown, and America has learned very little. What have you learned?

Dude, Poland is not USA, our crime scene is different. Just quietly, America is a continent with countries like Mexico, Peru etc., USA is a country, are you referring to the entire continent or your country?

Basically we don't need those laws in Poland, there are few living in secluded areas, everything is close, people still, amazingly, trust each other (for how long?) guns would only make people paranoid like nothing else, it's a sick idea, it's for sickos and cowards, we should never allow gun laws to pass. Jasonmzk for the first time in his life is right but he makes wrong comparisons and the mention of kids....hmmm
AmerTchr 4 | 201
23 Mar 2013 #633
Basically we don't need those laws in Poland, there are few living in secluded areas, everything is close, people still, amazingly, trust each other

And it's your country so that's great that you live somewhere you are comfortable.

I am a little curious about your point about everything being "close". I would expect your crime rates in cities to be higher than in small villages and rural areas. While people on ranches and farms tend to have weapons for rodents and hunting needs, violent crimes and murders particularly tend to be higher in "close" conditions as well.

I would also observe that the Poles I talk to do not seem very trusting of each other or at least no more so than any citizen of any other country where I have lived.
Ktos 17 | 456
23 Mar 2013 #634
[quote=AmerTchr]And it's your country so that's great that you live somewhere you are comfortable.I am a little curious about your point about everything being "close". I would expect your crime rates in cities to be higher than in small villages and rural areas. While people on ranches and farms tend to have weapons for rodents and hunting needs, violent crimes and murders particularly tend to be higher in "close" conditions as well.I would also observe that the Poles I talk to do not seem very trusting of each other or at least no more so than any citizen of any other country where I have lived.

That's my very point, we don't need guns in Poland.

As for me living in another country it's another matter, life is more complicated for us Polish.

Talking is not enough then, you have come to Poland sometimes and see how people behave and live. There will be mistrust but there are situations when you can still feel fine as compared to many western countries where it is not safe, it is a country of many contrasts.
ZIMMY 6 | 1,601
23 Mar 2013 #635
ZIMMY: couldn't find your question; what is it?
Now Zim you know that is dishonest. I know you cannot answer the question in the same way as a bar room braggard cannot live up to his own image.

I'll ask you again. What is your question? Do you actually have one?

The slave owners revolt?

About 5% of those living in the south owned slaves. Some founding fathers did also, nevertheless, the Constitution was the first major democratic instrument which allowed people to elect their leaders and gave people civil rights. Granted that "Negroes" at the time were still not considered full citizens but the audacity of the document changed not only the U.S. but the world as well. The Constitution recognized hat people were born with certain "natural" or "inalienable" rights and that these included the right to "life, liberty and property." Government did not give people these rights; rather they are born with them and as such, no government can take them away.

The argument over taxation is equally hypocritical, these people when not living off government largesse were free loading, paying less taxes than others. It really was a case of do as I say not as I do.

The only taxes in 1776 were excise taxes, that is, tariffs on manufactured and imported goods. Most people worked their own land and ate what they produced. Shop owners lived off their sales, although many made some of their own products as well.

As to gun ownership, it would seem you agree with and ally yourself with some infamous people:
""All political power comes from the barrel of a gun. The communist party must command all the guns..." Mao Tze Tung,

"I gave the categorical order to confiscate the largest possible number of weapons of every sort and kind. This confiscation, which continues with the utmost energy, has given satisfactory results." ....Benito Mussolini

""If the opposition disarms, well and good. If it refuses to disarm, we shall disarm it ourselves."....... Joseph Stalin

""The most foolish mistake we could possibly make would be to allow the subject races to possess arms. History shows that all conquerors who have allowed their subject races to carry arms have prepared their own downfall by so doing."..............Adolph Hitler

You agree with the above tyrants yet you disagree with this guy: """A free people ought to be armed." – George Washington
Ktos 17 | 456
23 Mar 2013 #636
[quote=ZIMMY]You agree with the above tyrants yet you disagree with this guy: """A free people ought to be armed." – George Washington

Yes, free people can do anything don't they? What free people? So you are not truly free until you own a gun? Aha. If one is so free why does one need a gun in the first place? Would you also like those "free" people to carry other weapons as well? Weapons like lasers maybe? As if we didn't have enough weapons already, people kill each other in most imaginery ways and you want to improve the situation by allowing people to kill each other in an even more efficient manner? I don't think we need more or more efficient weapons like guns, which instead of protecting will create chaos. You think only responsible people will get their hands on the guns?
ZIMMY 6 | 1,601
23 Mar 2013 #637
Would you also like those "free" people to carry other weapons as well?

I'm almost finished building my own personal drone which is equipped with lasers. It's the size of a Higgs Bosom which makes it impossible to detect. My hunchbacked assistant Igor will test the lasers on himself.

people kill each other in most imaginery ways

Indeed, frequently without using guns.

you want to improve the situation by allowing people to kill each other in an even more efficient manner?

Only authoritative governments kill that efficiently, usually in bulk.

You think only responsible people will get their hands on the guns?

Once again, most gun crimes are committed by people who already acquire weapons illegally. Evidently, I need to remind you that legal gun owners have the lowest crime rates than any other demographic but don't let logic interfere with your emotional responses to this subject.

What free people?

Nigerian Pygmies
peterweg 37 | 2,321
23 Mar 2013 #638
The problem is that America and its people are nothing like Europe or Poland. Things you consider normal and reference as such don't apply here.

There no discussion or likely hood of legalizing weapons and the arguments from pro-gun Americans are irrelevant to the subject over here. In the Uk for instance the subject has never been mention and no political party of group is going to suggest loosing firearms laws. Literally I have never heard anyone suggest it in several decades of living in the UK. Unlike legalising sex with minors - thats even been mentioned by peodos and its about the same level of probability.

The guns are for hunting, although I only occasionally fire at targets as I don't have a hunting license, it is quite time consuming to get it.
AmerTchr 4 | 201
23 Mar 2013 #639
Well, there is a discussion because someone, sometime ago brought it up....for discussion. You seem to be participating in it.

I know I didn't come here to argue, most of the comments amuse me with their childishness, irrelevance and inaccuracies.

What is involved in getting a hunting license IN POLAND, what are the seasons/animals IN POLAND and, finally, where do people hunt IN POLAND?

Anyone IN POLAND ever gone to another, reasonably close country for hunting?
newpip - | 140
23 Mar 2013 #640
people hunt in the many forests that are here.
p3undone 8 | 1,135
23 Mar 2013 #641
How difficult is it obtain a gun legally in Poland?Anyone?
Ironside 50 | 10,939
23 Mar 2013 #642
How do you control those people? You don't want a police-state, but you want people to labeled as fit and unfit to have access to guns?

They are unfit to have access to duns by their own deeds or their health. Label? I'm not obsessed with a quota or and false presumptions of equality.

You wouldn't be happy if your bus diver would have been blind just not to discriminate against visually impaired people.
Common sense.
On the other hand you have no calms on the though that gun ban would mean punishing all people for the deeds of few.

^
^
clams=qualms

Ktos:
What free people?
Nigerian Pygmies

:DDDDDD

That's my very point, we don't need guns in Poland.

That is your point. My point is that Poland should change her laws in regard to gun ownership.

How difficult is it obtain a gun legally in Poland?Anyone?

for an average hard working honest Joe with connection in the right places - very, very difficult.
The point is that even if you meet all laws requirements still commandant of the police in your county have decisive say in whether or not you will get license to buy and own a gun.

He can just say - I don't see in your circumstances anything that would confirm that you need a gun.
If you want to hunt you have to join the hunter club and pay extra for the privilege.
peterweg 37 | 2,321
23 Mar 2013 #643
How difficult is it obtain a gun legally in Poland?Anyone?

You have to join a hunting club. To get a license you read a book (paperback sized about 100 pages) and are tested in Polish on all aspects of hunting (seasons, how many kills you can make, husbandry etc) and gun safety. You have to pass a markmanship test every year at a range. Must be a Polish resident.

To hunt you need a gun (+ a safe at home), clothes (warm and of certain design to prevent it getting ripped to shreds in the woods). If you shoot anything you have to pay for it. Pheasant and Hare are about 25pln each I think. These are hunted in open ground with beaters (30pln each for a day) . I think you can kill around ten animals (boar/deer) per year in their respected seasons (boar maybe year round) in the woods

Its an expensive hobby (although you get a lot of meat), which means hunting clubs are in need of new members. My father-in-laws club has only one member under 40 (his son). Hunters come from other parts of the country and other countries to join in (we have a had a army colonel from Warsaw, a group from Slovakia, and other Polish clubs which included American-Poles). Nobody without a license is allowed to carry a weapon on a hunt.
AmerTchr 4 | 201
23 Mar 2013 #645
Thanks for your responses Peter. I look forward to starting the process although the whole testing "in Polish" thing may be messy if they won't allow a translator.

You didn't mention what animals are hunted here?
peterweg 37 | 2,321
23 Mar 2013 #646
I did, Boar, Deer, Pheasant and Hare. Elk and wolf are protected.

Foxes and stray dogs are shot as vermin
AmerTchr 4 | 201
23 Mar 2013 #647
Ah, thanks.

Sorry, I missed that middle paragraph bud.
Ironside 50 | 10,939
23 Mar 2013 #648
Yes but if one doesn't want to hunt or belongs to their stupid association and paying fees and still want to own a gun is pretty much screwed.
Grzegorz_ 51 | 6,163
23 Mar 2013 #649
Yes but if one doesn't want to hunt or belongs to their stupid association

Even If one does, hunting weapon is not really good for self protection... anyway It needs to be kept locked at home for most time and can be carried out only If one goes hunting...
jon357 66 | 17,035
23 Mar 2013 #650
Yes but if one doesn't want to hunt or belongs to their stupid association and paying fees and still want to own a gun is pretty much screwed.

If people were allowed to do that, there'd be feckwits firing guns too near public roads, shooting whatever species they like in whatever season they like. Most developed countries regulate hunting.

Even If one does, hunting weapon is not really good for self protection... anyway It needs to be kept locked at home for most time and can be carried out only If one goes hunting...

Yes. The days of farmers keeping their shotgun next to the kitchen door are long gone.
Rysavy 10 | 308
23 Mar 2013 #651
is this thread full of Americans basically discussing Americans gun and gun crime problem

Q?
A:
1) This forum is created by AmPoles

2)There are NON americans discussing as well but it is English forum . Plus some are US expat Polish citizens

3)Because US gun law/gun problems were used without context as example of why not...
INSTEAD of simple Polish opinion answer why they wouldn't feel a need for personal firearms more than allowed now

Though comparison was made it should not be be. Not for or against because as said last page= Poland isn't America.
though progressive with a history of democratic styled governments.
Personally I hope that Poland (and all countries emerging from dark places) as it grows ,selects what it can use and discards what it doesn't from other countries models. And holds HARD to her sovereignty.

BTW : ZIMMY is my Heeeero currently
youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=FP0-XWHkTdc
peterweg 37 | 2,321
23 Mar 2013 #652
The days of farmers keeping their shotgun next to the kitchen door are long gone.

You can get it out of the safe in a few seconds.

Even If one does, hunting weapon is not really good for self protection.

Depends on who need to be protected from or where you are. Unless you are a gangster you will never need to defend yourself, even in the USA the number of domestic incidents requiring legitimate use of a fire arm is small, a few thousand a year. In Poland I doubt it more than a handful and I suspect few criminal will go near a house where the owner is armed with a shot gun or rifle. This may not be true in the USA, certainly in Argentina criminals are willing get into a prolonged gun battle, so a Glock, lots of ammo and body armour would be understandable.

If you really think you need a firearm there is also the cost of training and regular practice. If you intend to get into a gun battle you better know what you are doing.It isn't cheap, a couple of thousand dollars a year is one opinion.

But I suspect the real reason most men would like to carry is cock waving rights. Look at me I'm a hard man.

A reason why I have avoided guns is because I might have used it in the past, I wouldn't have trusted myself.
jon357 66 | 17,035
23 Mar 2013 #653
You can get it out of the safe in a few seconds.

Not really. Not if it's stored properly. I'm surrounded by AK47s here and there's a reason why they carry them rather than store them all the time.

Unless you are a gangster you will never need to defend yourself, even in the USA the number of domestic incidents requiring legitimate use of a fire arm is small,

Spot on.

But I suspect the real reason most men would like to carry is cock waving rights. Look at me I'm a hard man.

That's (excuse the pun) a big part of it.
Ironside 50 | 10,939
23 Mar 2013 #654
Even If one does, hunting weapon is not really good for self protection... anyway It needs to be kept locked at home for most time and can be carried out only If one goes hunting...

Who is talking about hunting weapon? I'm saying that getting a gun license for average Joe is next to impossible.

If people were allowed to do that, there'd be feckwits firing guns too near public roads, shooting whatever species they like in whatever season they like.

Probably quite a few/ However if they are entrusted with the right to vote and choose representation they should be trusted with weapons even more so. If they behave as you say then there are is a law to deal with them.

The only way for people to behave responsible is to be burdened with responsibility.

Yes. The days of farmers keeping their shotgun next to the kitchen door are long gone.

well at least you can have black-powder shotgun without license, which tell you something isn't it? Tell you that gov do not worry about half-wits shooting each other but they worry about intelligent people together shooting them out of the saddle. Cannot do it with muzzle loaders so let them have it, but modern weaponry - no way Jose.

Unless you are a gangster you will never need to defend yourself,

Never?lol
jon357 66 | 17,035
23 Mar 2013 #655
Those who elect the lawmakers are by and large very happy to have strong gun laws in PL.
Barney 15 | 1,477
23 Mar 2013 #656
I'll ask you again. What is your question? Do you actually have one?

Zim as pointed out to you several times on this thread you stated that you want to fight tyranny I asked how and when yet you pretend there is no question that is dishonest.

Bringing a lot of quotes from a bunch of morally dubious slave owners does not an answer make. Nor does accusing any one who would like to see guns safely locked away of being either a communist or fascist make a good or logical argument. The point is that gun nuts suggest that fighting tyranny is a major reason that they should not be forced to keep their guns locked away, they are very vocal about this. They are vocal about Stalin and Hitler (rather quiet about Ho Chi Min mind) etc yet the same people are mighty quiet when asked how they would actually fight tyranny.

There are so many holes in the gun nut crowd's arguments that they cannot answer any pertinent questions, that's why they mouth hollow slogans.
Ironside 50 | 10,939
23 Mar 2013 #657
Those who elect the lawmakers are by and large very happy to have strong gun laws in PL.

Soviet mentality, but yes I'm afraid that you are right.Sad.

There are so many holes in the gun nut crowd's arguments that they cannot answer any pertinent questions, that's why they mouth hollow slogans.

I just wonder, you are intelligent man Barney and you seems to fail to grasp the idea of gun ownership for citizens. I just don't get it.
Grzegorz_ 51 | 6,163
23 Mar 2013 #658
If you really think you need a firearm

I don't... I've only been stating the obvious that walking down the street with hunting weapon on your back (even If that was legal here, It isn't know) is not really efficient way of self-defence, therefore the whole issue of hunting weapons do not really belong to this thread.
Barney 15 | 1,477
23 Mar 2013 #659
you seems to fail to grasp the idea of gun ownership for citizens.

I'm not against gun ownership for citizens, if there is a need for ownership then gun licenses should be issued people working in the country need guns. In the city hobbyists can shoot as many targets and clay pigeons as they want. In Europe there is not really any problem people who need guns get them, hunters get them as do target shooters. There are regulations on how guns should be stored and carried. There are additional regulations on the type of guns people should have access to Europeans are happy with this.

I live in a place where there was a tyrannical government that's why I keep hammering on that point.
The lack of answers of how to fight a tyrannical government is very telling these gun nut people have no idea what they are talking about.

When fighting a tyrannical gov decisions will have to be made to shoot some poor fellow in the back of the head or decide that he is still a target when off duty taking the kids to the cinema and so on.

Those decisions are sick and I want nothing to do with them. On the other hand defending your home and area is a very different question. I remember helping family find accommodation after their home was burnt and I commend the few people who were able to shoot back. At the time and for many years I wanted more guns however I know that more guns only means more death this is fact.

The fantasy talk of the gun crowd really annoys me its just pub talk they have exactly zero idea what they are talking about, their ignorance is staggering and extremely dangerous. They may live in a cowboy movie but the rest of us live in the real world.
peterweg 37 | 2,321
23 Mar 2013 #660
I've only been stating the obvious that walking down the street with hunting weapon on your back (even If that was legal here, It isn't know) is not really efficient way of self-defence

Why is it obviously inefficient to have a hunting rifle for defense?


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