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The right to own guns: would you support such legislation in Poland?


nott 3 | 594
25 Jul 2011 #421
Lyzko: The purpose of cars though is not to kill. Guns etc. are something else now!

Guns are to defend. Cars serve as means of transport, guns provide safety. Different tool, different use.

Imagine non-killing but effective ammunition. Practical requirements are known: bullets with huge stopping power, but not penetrating. Incidentally, 2 or 3 decades ago the French designed and successfully tested exactly this kind of ammo. It looked like a squat bullet with concave curvature of the tip. Kinda heavy tack.

Never went to production, and if I recall well, for political reasons. Apparently this would greatly increase pressure on the right to carry, and 'we are not having this kind of thing'.

Makes one think, like.

Of course, even with this kind of ammo there would be accidents, read deaths. Same like with cars. Or baseball bats. Or alcohol.
JonnyM 11 | 2,620
25 Jul 2011 #422
Guns are to defend.

They are to shoot with.
nott 3 | 594
25 Jul 2011 #423
Right, in general. Concealed carry is about defence.
JonnyM 11 | 2,620
25 Jul 2011 #424
Against people who either buy them legally with a permit or from some dodgy 'gun fair'. At least we don't have them in Poland.
nott 3 | 594
25 Jul 2011 #425
You have black market. And you have violent crime. I don't follow the 'defence with similar weapons' crap.
JonnyM 11 | 2,620
25 Jul 2011 #426
You have black market. And you have violent crime

So the harder to get them and the tougher the penalties for owning them the better. Rather than proliferation.

That's why no political party advocates reducing gun control and no significant campaign exists about it.
nott 3 | 594
25 Jul 2011 #427
JonnyM: That's why no political party advocates reducing gun control

UPR, for one.

What about the non-killing ammo? No comments?

And there were no comments on my post about Edwardian Britain. 'Crime was, by today's standards, remarkably low. Yet anyone could walk into one of numerous shops and buy a revolver. ' And police was not armed, was it? And poverty was a problem.
JonnyM 11 | 2,620
25 Jul 2011 #428
UPR, for one.

They hardly count as a political party - they have no deputies in parliament and get less than 4% of the vote (which means about 2% of the adult population of Poland voted for them) - not exactly a surging throng of pro-gun campaigners. Whether they use killing or 'non-killing' materiel, there is simply no popular movement on any scale for reducing gun control in Poland.
nott 3 | 594
25 Jul 2011 #429
JonnyM:they have no deputies in parliament and get less than 4% of the vote

They had about 8% of sympathisers. Most of those would vote on them because 'that's a lost vote. Due to a ridiculously disproportional media campaign, with GW in the lead.

Now on topic:

nott: What about the non-killing ammo?

nott: 'Crime was, by today's standards, remarkably low. Yet anyone could walk into one of numerous shops and buy a revolver. '

Hm? Anybody?
JonnyM 11 | 2,620
25 Jul 2011 #430
They had about 8% of sympathisers. Most of those would vote on them because 'that's a lost vote

They didn't vote for Poland's only gun-advocating 'party'. Anyone flicking through that ridiculous 'Najwyszy Czas' magazine that they put out can see why.

'Crime was, by today's standards, remarkably low. Yet anyone could walk into one of numerous shops and buy a revolver.

But was there a correlation? What about other jurisdictions at the time where the crime figures or the gun laws varied? Most importantly, what other factors were at play?
nott 3 | 594
25 Jul 2011 #431
JonnyM: Most importantly, what other factors were at play?

Dunno. What other factors are at play today? Is there a correlation between concealed carry and low rate of violent crime, now? Well, seems there is.

All I hear is 'more guns, more deaths, ban guns'. Hundred years ago it was so very different, Britain was not an exception. What changed? Internet? EU? Pop music? Cheap flights?
JonnyM 11 | 2,620
25 Jul 2011 #432
Is there a correlation between concealed carry and low rate of violent crime, now?

Certainly not in the US with low gun control, concealed weapons and a huge rate of gun crime. Whereas Europe...
nott 3 | 594
25 Jul 2011 #433
Certainly not in the US

How about individual states, old question. And we both know the answer, don't we?

Would you agree to allow concealed carry, if ammo was as described above? And, say, traditional ammo restricted?
delphiandomine 88 | 18,475
25 Jul 2011 #434
They had about 8% of sympathisers. Most of those would vote on them because 'that's a lost vote. Due to a ridiculously disproportional media campaign, with GW in the lead.

Why is it that Gazeta Wyborcza gets blamed for the failings of political parties?

It's a lazy, pathetic excuse to blame the newspaper - the truth is that UPR and the like simply don't attract much attention in a country which is fundamentally socialist.
JonnyM 11 | 2,620
25 Jul 2011 #435
How about individual states, old question. And we both know the answer, don't we?

I'm sure you aren't trying to compare, say, North Dakota with Poland. New York, Texas and California are the closest in population size, though still smaller. FL and NY together have about the same population as PL.

Would you agree to allow concealed carry, if ammo was as described above? And, say, traditional ammo restricted?

No. Proliferation is proliferation, without ifs and buts. I once lived in a bad area and considered (for a day or so) carrying a knife. I decided not to - the thought of using it was far worse than taking a different route home at night.
nott 3 | 594
25 Jul 2011 #436
JonnyM: I hope you aren't trying to compare, say, North Dakota with Poland.

No. Say, Vermont and California. Why population is a factor?

JonnyM: No. Proliferation is proliferation, without ifs and buts.

See, it's not about 'guns kill people' at all. Seems right wing gun nutters were right.

edit:

I once lived in a bad area and considered (for a day or so) carrying a knife.

I considered carrying a razor. Old style, grandpa's razor. I trained using it. I carried it for a stretch. My routes were limited.

To each his own. I am not advocating compulsory arming of everybody.
JonnyM 11 | 2,620
25 Jul 2011 #437
Why population is a factor?

A vast rural state with a population the size of Rzeszów is likely to have lower crime stats than in, for example, Miami.

Seems right wing gun nutters were right.

right with their fingers on the trigger of something lethal.

To each his own. I am not advocating compulsory arming of everybody.

And I'm not in favour of an outright ban. Hunters, police, and exceptional circumstances can justify it.
nott 3 | 594
25 Jul 2011 #438
JonnyM: A vast rural state with a population the size of Rzeszów is likely to have lower crime stats than in, for example, Miami.

Density of population the.. However, I don;t really follow that. Easier to visit a lonely farmer and gun him down for whatever reason.

JonnyM: right with their fingers on the trigger of something lethal.

We are talking non-lethal now. You don't like it anyway. Exactly what the Right was saying all the time, it's not about guns killing people. It's about people with guns.

JonnyM: Hunters, police, and exceptional circumstances can justify it.

Hunters, for fun, Ok. People, for defence...

Police - we are back in the Edwardian Britain. Police unarmed, people quite, low crime rate. Not that I want to disarm the police.
JonnyM 11 | 2,620
25 Jul 2011 #439
Easier to visit a lonely farmer and gun him down for whatever reason.

Certainly. But more likely to find gun crime in the mean streets.

Not that I want to disarm the police.

Likewise. It was good when they were all unarmed, but the presence of guns means some of the police at least have to be.
nott 3 | 594
25 Jul 2011 #440
JonnyM: But more likely to find gun crime in the mean streets.

Why, then?

JonnyM: It was good when they were all unarmed, but the presence of guns means some of the police at least have to be.

You are not listening. There were lots of guns in the Edwardian Britain
isthatu2 4 | 2,703
26 Jul 2011 #441
nott Britain was not an exception. What changed? Internet? EU? Pop music? Cheap flights

Ok,with my leftist lib credentials I'll jump in with the elephant in the room....................many moons ago crims used to carry shooters but very rarely used them,fast forward a few years and those "old families" were being muscled out by gangs from,lets say Jambadosidad where shootings and uprisings on the streets back home were day to day events,although with all the ganja I dont know where they got the energy.

Synchronicity combined in the early 80s,righteous anger followed by economic down turn followed by the rise of gang culture in LA by people our own sons of newcomers felt they could relate too.

You see footage of any gun crime in London or manchester and even if these days its a multi kulti meld of all races they all have two things in common, pants hanging below their arses and preposterous side ways shooting of pistols,thankfully that tactic keeps the number of victims down but it can lead to bystanders like that Polish lass a couple of years ago ending up dead because one lot of fcukwits from one post code area had a silly spat with another gang of thugs from a few blocks away.
modafinil - | 418
26 Jul 2011 #442
pants hanging below their arses and preposterous side ways shooting of pistols,thankfully that tactic keeps the number of victims down

Yes. It can make it difficult to 'buss a cap in yo ass' when one doesn't quite know where the arse is, anatomically.
nott 3 | 594
26 Jul 2011 #444
isthatu2

that sideways shooting is cool, innit

And that's possibly a hint. Cool is something that bears no real consequences. You don't show off if it may cost you life - in prison, say.

I am loosely interpreting now, a micro rant. So to get on track again - one thing that changed in those 100 years is attitude to thugs, regardless of multi-culti. Punishment used to be, now it is what it is. Still, punishment is not enough if it takes police an hour to come and stop a maniac.
isthatu2 4 | 2,703
26 Jul 2011 #445
No,its not about punishment,never was.
Its a culture shift, a mini arms race took place when a new crowd arrived who were prepared to use extreme violance far more randomly than the old lags did. "Natives" needed to "tool up" and so,much like the east west arms race a stupid amount of weapons arrived and were mostly used by those on the fringes. That mixed with the glamourising of LA gang culture and you end up with kids tooling up to sort out the sort of stuff that even in my day in the 90s would have at most ended up with a bit of a staring out contest or one or two punches.
nott 3 | 594
26 Jul 2011 #446
isthatu2No,its not about punishment,never was.

Oh, it is. When you risk being hung for robbery, it makes you think. When it's two years in comfort, what the fck.

isthatu2Its a culture shift, (..) in the 90s would have at most ended up with a bit of a staring out contest or one or two punches.

That's the thing I kept in my mind all the time. Culture is important. For example, there's as many knives in Poland as in England, but no stabbing culture. No knife-carrying culture, except some regions despised widely for this very reason.

And no gun culture. So if I were to introduce freedom of gun ownership, it would be like what somebody already said, similar to driving license.

Still, it's not quite about those gangs. I don;t think legal gun ownership would solve this particular problem. It's about common, private crime, businesslike thing, to get money or enjoy power.
brother4u - | 7
26 Jul 2011 #447
a country like Poland it wont be good because that could only increase crime and poverty which in all won't help the people. the right to won guns have never been a good security policy.
Llamatic - | 144
26 Jul 2011 #448
You see footage of any gun crime in London or manchester and even if these days its a multi kulti meld of all races they all have two things in common, pants hanging below their arses and preposterous side ways shooting of pistols

Yep. The US black thug culture has led the proliferation of gun violence. The Left here has tried to use this is their effort to disarm everyone, as if everyone was as angry and childishly irresponsible.

The bipartisan US Congress won't be going along with Obama/ UN gun control treaty:

Ratification requires two-thirds of the Senate. So far 57 senators have said they would vote against the treaty

"Our country's sovereignty and the Second Amendment rights of American citizens must not be infringed upon by the United Nations," Moran wrote in the letter. "Today, the Senate sends a powerful message to the Obama Administration: an Arms Trade Treaty that does not protect ownership of civilian firearms will fail in the Senate. Our firearm freedoms are not negotiable."

usnews.com/news/blogs/washington-whispers/2011/07/26/democrats-oppose-obama-un-gun-control-treaty

Sorry, one-world gun-grabbers. ;)
p3undone 8 | 1,135
11 Apr 2012 #449
Merged: Is gun ownership legal in Poland?

Gun ownership is legal in the U.S..I was just curious if this is so in Poland


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