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Polish was chosen the HARDEST LANGUAGE in the world to learn... :D


Wulkan - | 3,251
30 Jan 2016 #1,411
Wulkan, as far as English, if you omit one more definite article and the the like

Yep, "the the" what mr. Perfect English?
delphiandomine 86 | 18,269
30 Jan 2016 #1,412
At the time t attended school, Polish teachers did not make their students pay much attention to it.

I should probably be careful as to what I say here, but I've noticed that the difference between a reasonable Polish teacher of English and a great Polish teacher of English is how much effort they put into learning articles properly. I wish I could go into more details... perhaps one day.

Having said that, it only makes me annoyed when teachers of English make mistakes with it. For normal people, I don't even notice or care.

As for Polish, one thing I've noticed is that a lot of case endings are quite instinctive after a while.

And Lzyko, I suggest that part of the reason they get on at you is because of your attitude towards their mistakes. They make mistakes in English - but really, who cares?
Lyzko 26 | 7,007
30 Jan 2016 #1,413
Oh, I don't pay much mind to it, Delph! I figure those who are serious will improve, those who aren't won't, that's all:-) Thanks just the same. I'm actually used to it, sorta comes with the territory.

It's easy to jump on stupid typos, though when I make a typo, the difference is I KNOW it's a typo and I don't rationalize.
Chemikiem 6 | 2,319
30 Jan 2016 #1,414
it's nonetheless no end annoying to be carped upon and caviled for my admittedly common Polish errors,

Being honest though Lyzko, I've lost count of the times when you have posted about how badly Polish people in general speak English, and how you end up talking to them in their native language because their English is so bad.

Are you really that surprised then if after reading stuff like that, Poles then point out that your Polish isn't exactly perfect either?
How important is this anyway unless someone is specifically asking for a translation or language help?
Point is as learners, we all make mistakes. If those mistakes are noted and learned from, then we all improve. Not so bad is it? ;)

The effect of such intransigence is that somehow Polish is "superior" to English, ergo, mistakes in English are of lesser import:-)

I don't think it's that at all. The two languages are just so different.
I think that generally Poles make less important grammatical mistakes in English than the English speakers do with Polish grammar, simply because English grammar is less complicated.

That said, lots of minor mistakes in English shows that it is a difficult language to speak well.
gumishu 11 | 5,495
30 Jan 2016 #1,415
well the average Polish person's English is not very good Chemikiem and people really often overestimate their language abilities in English - what I believe is Lyzko falls into a trap of switching to Polish when he sees that communication in English is somehow not fluent or hampered but he doesn't notice that him trying to speak Polish is equally awkward to Polish ears as Poles trying to communicate in English with him (I think he overestimates his Polish proficiency as well) - having said that English is a strange beast - it seems easy because you can easily start to communicate in it but to speak it well demands a lot of learning and excercise - I for once haven't mastered English so far - perhaps I am on advanced level (I hold the CAE) but I'm very far from proficiency
mafketis 24 | 8,939
30 Jan 2016 #1,416
The general rule on learning various languages, the easier the first year is the harder the fifth year is and the harder the first year is the easier the fifth year is.

English is easy to start and learners can become 'communicative' relatively quickly. But mastery by learners is very, very rare.

Polish is super difficult to start and it takes learners longer to become communicative but the longer the learner sticks with it the better they get.

This is related to the fossilization trap - just because somebody understands something you said doesn't mean it's right. English learners are more likely to to fall into this and think they are very fluent will throwing off all kinds of mistakes while Polish is less forgiving and so a mistake that worked out once might lead to misunderstanding later and so longtime learners are more likely to keep getting better.
gumishu 11 | 5,495
30 Jan 2016 #1,417
I for once haven't mastered English so far - perhaps I am on advanced level (I hold the CAE) but I'm very far from proficiency

and well I am always open for native speakers to correct me - but most here don't bother to :P
poganin - | 58
30 Jan 2016 #1,418
Back to Polish, at least when I speak or write Polish, I aim high rather than low!

To even say that you are better than other person in something is already extremely low and rude, your low class is evident, did your parents teach you to be that low or did you learn this behaviour?

In reference to the topic, I read other posts and it could be Polish may not be even in the top 5 of the hardest languages.
gumishu 11 | 5,495
30 Jan 2016 #1,419
To even say that you are better than other person in something is already extremely low and rude, your low class is evident, did your parents teach you to be that low or did you learn this behaviour?

I don't think you are right - a native speaker has every right to say their English is better than that of a foreing learner - and no Lyzko is not a patronising individual - he is somewhat snobbish about langauge but I thinks this more or less comes naturally with greater elloquence
Lyzko 26 | 7,007
30 Jan 2016 #1,420
I'm glad to hear you say that, gumishu! Many, many thanks.

But, yes, BACK TO POLISH FINALLY, for me, the toughest still remains the counting:-) I know the rules, but it's the application which continues to dog me.

On the other hand, although many refuse to admit it, English articles, prepositions, and above all tenses, are often problem areas for Poles.

It seems, we have to think differently, whether we're "on" a trip or "IN a trip" (w podróże) etc...
gumishu 11 | 5,495
30 Jan 2016 #1,421
"on" a trip or "IN a trip"

which means which Lyzko - is 'in a trip' w podróży? what does 'on a trip' mean if so?
Lyzko 26 | 7,007
30 Jan 2016 #1,422
ON a trip = to be travelling, auf Reise sein,

W podróżY!!!

But of course, yet another silly typo. "Podróż" follows that irregular feminine noun declension pattern in the accusative singular. As a foreigner, I really ought to have known better.

Sooooorrrry, folks:-)LOL
Ironside 49 | 10,691
30 Jan 2016 #1,423
and no Lyzko is not a patronising individual -

If you think that then indeed your reading ability must be somewhat impaired or as you have said your English is not very good.
poganin - | 58
31 Jan 2016 #1,424
ON a trip = to be travelling, auf Reise sein .. no excessive quotes..

You are trying very hard to sound intellectual, you have done it a lot but the way you do it comes across as an attempt by someone who has nothing to show for in real life so he tries very hard here where he can show off to mostly uneducated people to cover up his shortcomings in other areas. I sense you would like to able to write in Polish the way average Polish writes, at least, so that you can tower above others here. You trying to make up for the shortcomings in Polish language by stating how good your Polish is in comparison to the English of non-English speakers. My advice is that you compare yourself among most of the Polish people and you will see that their English, German, Spanish or Italian is much better than your Polish, it is easy to do that on PF but try real world. Your showing off is only tetament to your desire to appear better than others in something but you are getting frustrated because you have been criticised for your Polish by Polish people whom you think should be more stupid than you and so you can accept that you are worse in something than they are. You need a psychologist to first tell you to stop dreaming that you have to better than others, you are only lowering yourself further. Those who think they are better than others are actually the ones who are inadequate.
Chemikiem 6 | 2,319
31 Jan 2016 #1,425
English is a strange beast - it seems easy because you can easily start to communicate in it but to speak it well demands a lot of learning and excercise -

Yes you are right. I'm amazed at how well some of my friends have quickly picked up English, but to communicate even simply in Polish takes much more time. Reading and writing in Polish is way easier than having a conversation.

is 'in a trip' w podróży? what does 'on a trip' mean if so?

I might be wrong, but I think Lyzko was referring to another common aspect of grammar which Poles often get wrong, the use of prepositions, as he mentioned that prior to this sentence. For example, 'I'll see you in Sunday instead of on Sunday". Hence the "on" a trip or " in " a trip.
Lyzko 26 | 7,007
31 Jan 2016 #1,426
@Ironside, you're scarcely the one here to judge my English or that of any other native speaker on PF! Am happy to see though that you and Wulkan post frequently. It's a good way to keep up your English skills much as I keep up my Polish:-) Don't be afraid of correction however. We all learn from our mistakes (..myself included).

You're exactly right, Chemnikiem! I was alluding to differing preposition use between Polish and English. Incidentally, I posted in error that "w podróży" stands in the Accusative instead of the Locative. My oversight.

@Poganin,
As you've never seen examples of my German, moreover, are not an English native speaker, I'd refrain from pop-psych appraisals in which you have no first-hand knowledge. Sorry to be so blunt!
Ironside 49 | 10,691
31 Jan 2016 #1,427
@Ironside, you're scarcely the one here to judge my English

I'm judging your attitude to others and level of your dickheadness. Is that even a word Lyzko, please advice me here.
gumishu 11 | 5,495
31 Jan 2016 #1,428
sorry Ironside but with such personal attacks it's you who proves to be more of a dickhead
Lyzko 26 | 7,007
31 Jan 2016 #1,429
I will gladly adviSe you that the word is "thickheadedness":-) Were you perhaps confusing "dick" with German "Dickschaedligkeit" aka "having a thick skull", being chronically stubborn?

Thanks, gummi!

Even to this day, I have to weigh what the noun stem is before I attempt normal paragraphs! What should take me seconds, can take anywhere from five to ten minutes:-)
Ironside 49 | 10,691
31 Jan 2016 #1,430
sorry Ironside but with such personal attacks it's you who proves to be more of a dickhead

Look mishu mind your own business if you have feelings for Lyzko that is you problem. I know your opinion and I don't care much for it.

I will gladly adviSe you that the word is "thickheadedness":-)

Thank you Lyzko that is very kind of you. I have been looking for a word that would combine many 'qualities' and the word thickheadedness doesn't give a justice to what I have in mind.

How would you call someone with an abhorrent attitude combined with inferiority complex, stubbornness and lack of manners? Furthermore that someone is convinced that he is a very well mannered and helpful soul with good intensions.

Calling that someone a certain part of the human anatomy seems to be convening my intent quite well.
However I'm always willing to learn and if you could come up with an appropriate equivalent I'm sure it would came handy.
Lyzko 26 | 7,007
1 Feb 2016 #1,431
"What would you call someone with an abhorrent attitude, combined with [AN] inferiority complex...?"

In the US, we'd call them a Republican:-)
lol
poganin - | 58
2 Feb 2016 #1,432
I prefer people with inferiority complex than stuck up individuals with superiority (dickheadness) complex, but it is only your complex. I read your comments and you come across as a weak man (argument wise) and slightly frustrated person at times, trying to prove forcefully your correctness, you are in fact doing the opposite, you are proving how wrong you are the more you dwell on a topic. Your English is erroneous at times, your punctuation for example has some shortcomings, go back and inspect your mistakes and then come back and speak of your glory, but it is funny how you gloat here while English is your native language, am I not right? Do I prance around telling English speakers here how good my Polish is (despite how easy or difficult the language may be)? I would have to be insane. Do you not need a psychologist perhaps?
Ziemowit 13 | 4,204
2 Feb 2016 #1,433
In the US, we'd call them a Republican:-)

A quick-witted response which shows us that Lyzko is neither a dickheaded twat nor a Republican...

...people with inferiority complex than stuck up individuals with superiority (dickheadness) complex,

It's been discussed already and despite that you've made this deplorable mistake - dickheadEDness, please, and not 'dickheadness'. If you go around Łódź one day, repeating 'dickheadedness' rather than 'dickheadness' aloud, you'll soon earn the reputation of being truly perfect in English in that ancient industrial city of Poland.

Your English is erroneous at times

His English is not erroneous, it is sometimes a 18th century English. Moderator Pam (together with Harry) once ridiculed such a language of his on the PF. I disagreed and replied in a post that followed that everyone was entitled to use English of whatever century on the PF as this isn't forbidden in the forum rules. Moderator Pam, however, disagreed with this opinion and as a result moved my post to the off-topic bin (she left hers saying otherwise). The freedom of speech was very much abused then on the PF through such a disgusting act of censorship.
Lyzko 26 | 7,007
2 Feb 2016 #1,434
Thanks, Ziemowit:-)

Poganin is doubtless frustrated that my English is better than his.

@Poganin, not ALL Poles can be another Joseph Conrad. Sorry to disappoint youLOL
Ironside 49 | 10,691
2 Feb 2016 #1,435
you're scarcely the one here to judge my English

In that you are mistaken my friend I can judge your English.

[AN] inferiority complex

See if you would have contented yourself with correcting some grammatical errors even in my posts I wouldn't mind it at all. You would go around in your merry way wailing on a sorry state of contemporary educational standards unmolested.

However you are a person who is displaying less than agreeable traits.
You are judgmental, moody, contradictory, domineering and patronizing. It is irrefutable fact that you are behaving like a dick at times, in other words you were behaving badly. Nothing more and nothing less. Behave, show some manners and we can have a proper debate as adults should.

A quick-witted response

A witted response would be a more appropriate phrase here. However you are complaining Lyzko so he'll not pull you on that one. If you on the other hand would've scold him it would irrevocability put you in his black book and he would've point that out.

His English is not erroneous

Everything has its time and place. This forum is mainly dedicated to debate about things connected with Poland or to the exchange of information about Poland. Hence English on this forum should be clear, informative and to the point. Other than that one needs to remember that people are writing here in the way they talk. English of this forum is more oft than not a conversation in a form of a written post.

His English is overtly stylized. He reminds me of a craftsman who know his trade well but he is not an artisan he claims to be. Whose works are being testimony to the fact that coping masterpieces cannot turn a copycat into a master by any stretch of imagination.

It all would be charming and harmless if at the same time he wouldn't usurping himself position of a judge of the English language usage and standards, perhaps he misses his job as a lecturer.

I disagreed and replied in a post that followed that everyone was entitled to use English of whatever century

You and him are very much alike you both like to tell people what to do and who to do it. Perhaps you are a lecturer too. I have an advice for you a one you can take or disregard - don't bring your work home.

By the way - your English is stiff, measured and proper - not a refreshing read but clear and commutative.
Chemikiem 6 | 2,319
2 Feb 2016 #1,436
Moderator Pam

once ridiculed such a language of his on the PF.

Despite your English being good Ziemowit, I think you may have a problem with your comprehension. Either that or you are prone to exaggeration ;)
I have not and would not ridicule anyone's language skills on this forum.
What I have said in the past and would still stand by now regarding Lyzko's English, is that it is rather formal and not how most people would speak in an everyday conversation.

That is very far from ' ridiculing ' the way he writes.
But I do find your periodic attempts to nitpick at me rather amusing, if not a little sad.
Maybe one day you will grow up a bit and get over my moving your posts to the bin ;)
Love and peace sweetie :-)

your English is stiff, measured and proper - not a refreshing read but clear and commutative.

That would be because he apparently learned it from the BBC.

Anyway, despite posters' mistakes, I'm impressed with the level of English a lot of the long term non-native speakers here have.
Some of the discussions they've been involved in require a high level of understanding of the language.
If only I could communicate as well in Polish.......:-(
Atch 17 | 3,324
3 Feb 2016 #1,437
correcting some grammatical errors even in my posts I wouldn't mind it at all.

Yes you would. You once got very cross with me for correcting your spelling (which I never normally do to other adults but you were being patronising and deserved it).

You make loads of errors in spelling and grammar which sometimes render your own posts less than comprehensible. The meaning is there only through the context, for example:

clear and commutative.

You mean communicative.

he wouldn't usurping himself position

Completely meaningless.

you are complaining Lyzko

Meaningless but I can gather from the context that you meant to say 'complimenting'.

coping masterpieces

Meaningless but no doubt a typo.

Now that's just a sample of your errors in the above post, there are more. One of the features of your own English Ironside is that your command of syntax and grammar deserts you big-time when you get over-excited. I've noticed that many times. Calm down or you'll have a stroke before you're fifty. And one of the nice things about Ziemowit is that he continues to want to learn and improve his English skills, it's one of the reasons he visits this forum. He's humble enough to know that he can still learn something.

I have to finish by correcting a mistake you make all the time because it's driving me absolutely nuts: stop saying 'end off' as a conclusion to posts. It's 'end of' as in 'end of the story'.

And yes my own Polish is cringe-inducing although people are very kind and tell me 'ale bardzo ładne Pani mowi po Polsku'. I don't though! 'Endings, endings, endings' my husband sighs. 'Your endings must be clear'.
poganin - | 58
3 Feb 2016 #1,438
You make loads of errors in spelling and grammar which sometimes render your own posts less than comprehensible

Are you a native English speaker? If so then you have no right to correct non-English speakers here unless your Polish is perfect. Is your Polish perfect? Let me examine it.
Atch 17 | 3,324
3 Feb 2016 #1,439
Are you a native English speaker?

I am.

Is your Polish perfect?

I see you're another speed reader. Here's what I said about my Polish skills in that post:

my own Polish is cringe-inducing

Why oh why don't people pay attention when they're reading??
Ziemowit 13 | 4,204
3 Feb 2016 #1,440
... unless your Polish is perfect. Is your Polish perfect? Let me examine it.

Poganin, haven't you heard Atch saying:

people are very kind and tell me 'ale bardzo ładne Pani mowi po Polsku'.

?
So, there is no need to examine her Polish. End of !!! (Or is it: End off !?)


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