What is Poles opinion on Intermarium (Międzymorze)?

Since EU is in a bad shape and Russia is kind of gaining power and is becoming more threatening wouldn't it be better to create a Slavic Union? Since we, slavs, have common origins and mentality.

Anything would be better than EU, USA or Russian dictatorship.

The Slavic Union is a kind of dream which will never come true. There has never been a union of Germanic nations, neither has there been a union of 'Romanesque' countries. All the 'partial' Slavic unions that existed so far have eventually failed and disappeared from the earth.

I think the Slavic countries are all too 'young' politically and economically to cope with the administration and logistics of a union. Also perhaps they are a little too alike to co-operate with each other effectively. Slavs can be a volatile lot, they tend to be quick tempered and harbour grudges. I don't think the word 'compromise' is really in the Slavic lexicon. It would probably all start off with great bonhomie and shoulder slapping and sharing the bread and salt and end with none of them speaking to each other for the next fifty years.

Hmm ...its not about unions or Slavic but more about a common interests of the countries in this general area to form some kind of close partnership and cooperation without Russian and Germany meddling.

I think the Slavic countries (with the exception of Czechia and Slovenia perhaps) are all too young to cope with the effective administration and logistics of of their own countiers, not to mention the administration and logistics of a union.

Although things have been improving a lot for the last 25 years, they are still lagging behind in comparison with the so-called old Europe countries.

Remind me what are you? A prophet, an omniscient being? The concept is sound and logical - nobody has to joint it.
Those 'too young' countries is just a terribly misguided slogan that has no place in politics.
Lucky you're not omnificent either! lol.

Ziem is right. The former Eastern Bloc countries are still in a state of reform/development and their internal workings are not sufficiently smooth and streamlined to cope with any additional demands. It would require enormous co-ordination between Slavic nations to operate on a similar basis to the EU, if that's what the OP envisages. He didn't specify so we don't know.


Very vague. What does that mean in practical terms? I can't help thinking of the refugee vote back in 2015 when Poland, having initially shown solidarity with the other Visegrad nations against quotas, then voted not with its Slavic 'brothers' but with the other EU members.

You people here know that I support joining of Serbia in eventual Intermarium. It would be great. But, western Europe don`t like idea of Intermarium. It is alternative to their dictate and absolute control is only what they seek.

When you put a majority a slavic nations together, we now what happens, they argue between them and the union soon disintegrates, unless a strong man is at the helm. Look at what happened to Yugoslavia when Tito disappeared. What makes you believe that the same would not happen to an "Intermarium"??

You must avoid to hold to mainstream western European and Anglo media rapports. Those were leading EU and NATO powers which side by side with Islamic league invested in dissolution of Yugoslavia. If they want, if they don`t have strong opposition to their projects, something like bloody Civil War could happen anywhere. It is so because during economic crisis one can always stimulate internal antagonism, from outside or from inside. In case of Yugoslavia, all major players were corrupt by the leading EU and NATO powers. Corrupt or manipulated, with different roles- dependable on planed scenario. That`s what happened.

You better tell me what you are! Are you someone who left Poland in search of comfort and a better life abroad? I am someone who have been staying here all his life and has been coping with the Polish administration accordingly, dude!


Their "internal workings" are often very very regrettable. Some days ago my mother's prescription was refused to be taken in by an apteka on the petty grounds that the doctor prescribed six refunded items instead of the maximum five allowed. Several days before that happened I read that tens of thousands of prescriptions were issued in 2016 by doctors who were dead or for patients who were dead at the time of issuing the prescription. Smooth and streamlined administration - that is indeed something to ponder upon in Poland, my dear Iron!

Ah boo! That makes you a martyr, right?
Stop whining, nah that won't work, nah this or that is not possible. Has anyone envisioned such a formalized cooperation of countries of t he region would materialize tomorrow? Just with the snap of someone fingers? That will take years, decades and a lot of work. However that concept is worthy of pursuing in the interest of Poland and all other countries of the area.


What is with you people? Is that jealousy? If you don't work damn hard, don't adapt quickly and don't think on your feet, no matter where you are and what you do - you'll not succeed.


One has nothing to do with the other. Put your house into order first but it doesn't mean you shouldn't plan for the future.


Yes, it is very observant of you.


That is a completely different matter. At the time PO was doing Merkel and Tusk biding disregarding Poland's national interest.


In practical terms it means that countries of the region would take a stand on the international ground (including EU) as a block.
I would see furthering of a close strategic cooperation in regard to foreign capital, financiers, banks, media and other fields/issues of strategic importance. Partnership that would evolve into confederation.


Well, it doesn't need to happen on the same day and not all countries of the region have to join or do it all together. Also a level of involvement and engagement between countries of the region would differ from state to state. Self-interest would dictate the way and pace. A monolithic uniform sameness with huge bureaucracy is not a necessarily a good model to follow.

wait. People? people, what`s wrong with Polish administration?

It's bad to leftists since things don't happen as they would like them to.

Duda came to power and mentioned Intermarium. Now we have Poland filled with NATO troops.

This reminds me on time when Warsaw Pact troops intervened to prevent insurgence in Warsaw Pact countries.

And that's precisely what didn't happen when:


then voted in quite the opposite manner.


The reasons matter less than the outcome. The fact is that Poland was seen by the other Visegrad countries to apparently do a U-turn on a matter where they appeared to be in agreement.

I absolutely see where you're coming from with the idea that nations, Slavic or otherwise, should act in unity where it's in their common interest to do so but there are two problems with that. Firstly it's not always possible to reach agreement as to the precise nature pursuit of common goals should take and arguments ensue that can ultimately end up damaging relations between countries rather than improving them. It's hard enough for politicians within the same country to agree on things let alone politicians from several different nations.

Secondly and most importantly, unions or alliances of any kind inevitably impinge to some degree on sovereignty as is the case with the EU. The EU went from being an 'Economic Community' to becoming a kind of mini-Commonwealth with the members now having what one might call 'home rule' rather than complete independence.

Yes, official Poland isolating itself from rest of Visegrad Group. Its trend.

Have you seen an entity with a name Intermarium attached to it? No? That is precisely the reason for what did happen.


Those countries are well aware what has happened and why - they understand as they have their own post-commie redundant matter to deal with in their own countries.


Yes it not easy and straightforward. I know that.


Your problem derive from the fact that you focus to much on Kosovo. Nobody in the foreseeable future will give you Kosovo back and that is the fact you better start using to. Russia, positioning yourself as an opposition of NATO and USA is the worst way you can go about it.

In fact the only feasible way of you getting Kosovo back is to become part of the NATO and the best friend of the USA in the region. It won't be easy it won't be fast but it is the only realistic way in which you could possibly get this province back into Serbian fold.

Russia won't help with that. Russia is a waning power.

Intermarium is a concept of creating a body of a close cooperation of the nations between Russia and Germany . It's first aim to counter their influence in that region. Hence bulling it as an anti-NATO anti-USA pro-Russian entity doesn't make sense in the slightest.

Naturally a logical consequence of that concept is to be anti-EU and having a baking of the only power that matters and that would find that concept playing into their own hands. It means USA as that is the only powerful entity that would find that concept appealing and in their own interest.

So Crow you are being silly. Let's hope that Serbians statement are wiser than that and there enough people with brains in Serbia to back them up.

You are the one who don`t understand. Not pro-Russian but not against Russia. Its the difference. Not against. Actaully, not against anybody but pro-Polish, pro-... any people in between, as we agree. See, all what isn`t against Russia, is alright for Russia. But, all what isn`t against Russia, isn`t acceptable for NATO and EU.

Somebody in EU and NATO wants to use Poland as condom. If they can use idea of Intermarium for their own aims, they would support formation of Intermarium. If it isn`t possible, they would obstruct formation of Intermarium. They don`t give a sh** for Polish or any other interests. Only golden them and their greed.


It depend on Serbia. On what we want and for what we are ready and capable.


and if not?


don`t know what to tell you. My people is crazy.

In the eyes of the Kremlin that is only a sematic distinction.


Come on Crow.


Good luck to you. say hi from me to your nurse.


That would make it harder.

Why are you that pessimistic. We can do it. Really. And Kosovo, and Intremarium. We can correct every injustice. We would be free. We are free. Go, consult Polish legends. They know about Racowie

Crow it appears the Intermarium project you have been hoping for has been unfortunately hijacked.

Banderovits - Ustashe Alliance

In Kiev on 27 April, Ukrainian chauvinist party National Corpus (the political wing of the National Guard regiment "Azov") organized the second international conference dedicated to the promotion of the idea of ​​the Baltic - Black Sea geopolitical alliance (the word is about INTERMARIUM!).

The novelty is that the Union at this time was already named Adriatic-Baltic-Black Sea, and the event made by Leo Marić, International Secretary of the Croatian national-chauvinist party Generation Renewal.

It is important to note that, in accordance with accounts on social networks, Generation Renewal leaders are close allies of "Azov" chauvinists. So, Marić and party president Frane Čirko attended the inaugural meeting by the "national body", which was held in Kiev in October 2016, and in the organization of military formations of national-chauvinists "Azov", which is part of the "Right Sector".

Čirko is a part of the Ustasha rightwingers in Croatia, was a member of the Croatian Pure Party of Rights, (HČSP), which emphasizes continuity with the Ustashe movement of Ante Pavelić, known for genocide against Serbs.

For example, in 2012, members of HČSP have laid wreaths on the grave of their "predecessor" Pavelić and Croatian monument to the soldiers who fought on the side of the Germans in World War II. Croatian national chauvinists are working closely with the Hungarian Jobbik and other extreme chauvinist parties in the mainly Catholic countries across Central and Eastern Europe from the Adriatic to the Baltic and the Black Sea.

This is the situation.

On the long run, USA abandoning Europe. Making deals with Russia, western Europeans (ie EU, ie Germany and France) and Turks about respect of minimum of USA interests on local level. In the picture also entering coalition of Hungary and Serbia that made deal with China, Russia and Vatican, while deal with USA still have to happen. But, considering weight of importance of two countries as meditative factor between USA and China-Russia, deal with USA about respect of USA minimal interests in the region is guaranteed.

Then, of countries that are logical candidates for Intermarium on the long run, western Europe strongly controls regimes in Croatia, Ukraine, Romania and Baltic states.

Poland plays on USA, while is actually right now isolated. So, in time in front of us, we shall see how Poland joining with Hungary and Serbia or how Poland becoming chaotic zone of competition, where would western Europeans try to instill internal turmoil and dissolution by the logic- grab what you can (Ukrainian or Yugoslavian scenarios). No third option for Poland, I can dare to say. So, Duda will hold to his word and pledge to work on Intermarium, or Duda may proved to be corrupt.

Merged:

Intermarium without Czechs, Slovacs, Croats, Finnish and Baltics - let Bulgaria in instead

Pilsudski was too generous,little did he know how some Eastern and Central European nations would behave towards Poland in a face of Western European challenge. Have Czech and Slovakians ever stood by Poland the way Hungary has? Our nearest neighbours and how they treat us? And what those two faced Croats have done so far? The Baltics are selling their bums to the West quicker than prostitutes and Finnish??? Finnish are Western Europeans. Who knows what Serbians would have done if they were accepted into EU, after what Croatians have shown so far, I am sceptical about any Yugoslavians. More dialogue with Ukraine, Belarous, Romania is needed. Bulgarians at least are standing up to EU - they are proving more worthy of the pact than the useless Czechs and Slovacs.

Sounds practically as though you'd have been the one to have planned the assassination of your first president of the Republic, Gabriel Narutowicz, accusing him of selling out his country to foreign interests.

@Ktos

How Pilsudski was generous to Serbians? How? Man, Serbians were military elite of Polish-Lithuanian Commonwealth. Those were Serbs who gave Winged cavalry military `knee to knee` doctrine to Poles, what was cutting edge in military war-craft. Not only that. Serbian ways were welcomed by Polish Jagilonian kings and whole of Polish nobility. Serbian gusle music players performed at the court of Władysław II Jagiełło since 1415. Serbians, as Racowie, entered in Polish epic legends.

So logically, Pilusdiski couldn`t imagine new Commonwealth without Serbians.

As for Czechs and Slovaks, I don`t know what went wrong between Poles and them. Strange. But, in any case, when it comes to Intermarium they will follow Serbs. So again, Pilsudski needed Serbs. Russians? Well, again Pilsudski needed Serbs. Only Serbs were reliable factor when it cames to Polish-Russian conflicts. For one, Serbians for their own interests acted as perfect mediators between Poles and Russians. Then, if Russians acted against Poles, Serbians ignored Christian Orthodox religious factor and sided with Poles. Unique example of ignoring such a factor, not only among Slavs but among all Europeans. See, Serbians are first Slavs (ie Sarmatians)- in ethnic and spiritual sense and, just then Christians. That fascinated Pilsudski. And not only him but also Adam Mickiewicz, prince Czartorisky and others.

For Croats, you are right. But, its not over yet. While Croats for sure have their right to go with Germany, Catholic Serbs would be saved from Croatian yoke and free to join with other Serbs and that way keep themselves and their property within Slavic (ie Sarmatian) realm.

Baltics, Finnes? Well, how things stands now, forget them. We have to be realistic.


If you are familiar with Polish history, you wouldn`t have any doubts about Serbs.

Ukraine? Yes, dialogue, after Ukrainians make a deal with Russians about borders between of what would be Ukraine and Russia.

Belarus, Romania? Dialogue is good thing. Always.

Bulgarians? Well, same as Croats in history proved how Catholics can serve to Germany, Bulgarians proved how Orthodox can serve to Germany. Now, go figure that.

I wrote "too generous" and in reference to some other nations that never deserved to be in any coalition with Poland or other Eastern or Central European countries. Croatia, Czech Republic, Slovakia and Baltic states, as well as Finland. Pilsudski was as usual too Polish - spontaneous generosity - giving away Polish solidarity as if it was fresh bun. I did not know about Serbia's contribution or Its negotiation past between Polish and Russian relations. This is the first time I read about. Bulgaria shocked me as well, so who knows, at the moment Poland needs all it can take, at least I do not know Bulgaria as our enemy. Serbia is an enigma to me when it comes to Polish-Serbian relations on political scene, I wonder how it would pan out in today's era.

See, hardly that Piludski was motivated by generosity when numbered regions and states that should encompass Intermarium. He was statesman, politician, thinker. I think that Pilsudski was in the first place practical, moved by the logic, necessity and strategy. He mentioned Finland and Baltics in the sense of to say `maximizing effects of Intermarium` in political, military, economical, historical, in any sense. It had its historical background but development shows (what Pilsudski for sure was aware) that those regions moving from Poland, not to Poland. Moving in direction to Germany. So, Pilsudski mentioned Finland and Baltics rather to present alternative to them, having in mind that things may change- what is truth after all.

As for Bulgaria, particularly.... its not enemy of Poland for sure. I would even say that Slavs there even likes Poles, at least those who feel (!) themselves as Slavs and knows little bit of history (same as saving Serbs, Poles also greatly supported Bulgarians during initial Turkish occupation). Problem with Bulgaria is that can`t be trustworthy. Too easily obey to demands of super-powers. In Bulgaria, Orthodoxy means obeying to Russia. Bulgarians don`t know for different approach. At the same time, they have especial affiliation for everything German. They killing themselves to satisfy others. So, to put it in context with Poland, Bulgaria wouldn`t harm Poland because Bulgaria want that. No, it may happen as collateral damage of Bulgarian poltronic policy. Country absolutely don`t have backbone and people don`t have political culture that would move them to go on streets in the right moment and demand things from politicians.

When NATO bombarded Serbia from Bulgarian territory, back in 1999, Bulgarians started to awakening. Their public was against it. If they were lucky, if NATO bombed Serbia at least 6 more months and killed some 10.000 more people, I do believe that would give time to Bulgarians to organize some decent protest against NATO, in support to Serbs. But, bombing was stooped. So this way, we still don`t know where is the point when starting Bulgarian dignity.

Has nothing to do with it. I wonder what the concept of Intermarium has to do with him because there is nothing bar that in politicks of the region those countries who don't want to be vassals to Germany or slaves to Russia must and should cooperate closely - that is a logical and an obvious path for them to take.