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Can anyone from Poland tell me about Auschwitz and The Ghetto?



Bzibzioh    
19 Feb 2009  #61

I just read something wrong, and I thought they they didn't learn about it at school.

Why on earth would you think that?
As you can see from at least above discussion, the topic is very alive.


joepilsudski 26 | 1,395    
19 Feb 2009  #62

Here is a link about Geborski from Gazeta Polska...I read a translation; here is the original:

There was no mention in it of this Geborski character being Jewish...You know, from having grown up around Poles, I know that Poles can be some of the most hard hearted MFs there are...So, I am sure that many Poles were very happy to co-operate with the Communists, even if this meant oppressing their own people...Power is power, and greed is greed, and lust is lust...There is no one without sin...If you wish to bring a Jew to justice, then the same must be done with the Pole.
sjam 2 | 541    
19 Feb 2009  #63

Another part of the Warsaw Ghetto story:

The Jewish Order Police ((or Jewish Ghetto Police force) headquarters were located at Ogrodowa Street, which backed on to Chlodna Street. Adam Czerniakow noted in his diary on the 11 December 1941:

“In the morning at the Community. I inspected with Szerynski the new headquarters of the Order Service at Chlodna Street.” The Jewish Order Police and the Polish “Blue” Police played a key role in the smuggling carried out through the walls. The Jewish policemen found it to be a profitable business, whilst the Polish police, were also able to make a profit out of the smuggling."

The Blue Police or 'Blueys' as they were known by the Polish Jews were a Polish collaborationist police force in the German occupied area of Poland. It was created by Nazi-Germany as an auxiliary paramilitary police force in order free up German Police for othet tasks. Firstly the Polish 'Blueys' were used in criminal cases then it was later supposed to used to prevent smuggling (but in fact as Czerniakow noted they were involve in smuggling rather tha preventing it!) and they were to be used in policing the Jewish population in the ghettos. The Blue Police were also involved in round-ups and beatings as were the Jewish Ghetto Police themselves. The Blue Police were also involved in numerous killings of Jews. It is claimed that the Polish Blue Police were forced to collaborate with the Germans or face death but there is no documenatry evidence to support this claim.

It should be noted that some officers of the Polish Blue police were awarded the Righteous Among the Nations award for their help in rescuing Polish Jews.

The story of the 13's like that of the Polish Blue Police, the Jewish Ghetto Police and Polish blackmailers (known as szmalcowniki) who all exploited and brutalised Polish Jews for their own immoral and self-serving ends is an important aspect of the Nazi Holocaust.
Prince 15 | 592    
19 Feb 2009  #64

sjam

Harry is unable to continue debate as Harry
1jola 14 | 1,893    
19 Feb 2009  #65

I think he has two computers.

The Jewish Order Police and the Polish "Blue" Police played a key role in the smuggling carried out through the walls. The Jewish policemen found it to be a profitable business, whilst the Polish police, were also able to make a profit out of the smuggling."

So? Without smuggling the people would have starved. And where would the Jews get their weapons for their riot in April 1943?

It is claimed that the Polish Blue Police were forced to collaborate with the Germans or face death but there is no documenatry evidence to support this claim.

You are sad. Did you come up with that one all by yourself? Try this:

In October 1939, General Governor Hans Frank ordered the mobilization of the pre-war Polish police into the service of the Germans. The policemen were to report for duty or face the death penalty.[3]
Hempel, Adam (1987). Policja granatowa w okupacyjnym systemie administracyjnym Generalnego Gubernatorstwa: 1939-1945. Warsaw: Instytut Wydawniczy Związków Zawodowych. p. 83.

It should be noted that some officers of the Polish Blue police were awarded the Righteous Among the Nations award for their help in rescuing Polish Jews.

Yes it should. Also:

A significant part of the police personnel belonged to the Polish underground resistance organization Armia Krajowa[15], mostly in the counter-intelligence of the Home Army and the National Security Corps.[16] Some estimates are as high of 50%.[17] Blue Police followed German orders reluctantly[18][11] and that the officers had little choice but to obey their orders or face death.[8] The Blue Police often disobeyed German orders or even acted against them[11], and some of its officers were ultimately awarded the Righteous Among the Nations

The story of the 13's like that of the Polish Blue Police,

It isn't. 13 and Żagiew were Jewish Gestapo agents. Volunteers.

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Group_13

The group[4] vied for control of the ghetto with the Judenrat and infiltrated the Jewish opposition within the ghetto.[5]

A Jewish man recording events:

"Yesterday, the third of August they slaughtered Zamenhof and Pawia Streets. They did not confiscate houses, but blockaded the entire block for expulsion. The SS killers stood guard while the Jewish police worked inside the courtyards. This was a slaughter in proper style¬- they had no pity even on infants and nurslings. All of them, all, without exception, were taken to the gates of death." Scroll of Agony, p.398 ¬

"There is weeping and wailing in every house.

"At the beginning, the time of negotiations, a directive was issued to the Judenrat to deport 6,000 a day; in point of fact they are now deporting close to 10,000. The Jewish police, whose cruelty is no less than that of the Nazis, deliver to the Stawki Street more than the quota to which the Judenrat obligated itself." Scroll of Agony, p.384

"Sometimes there are several thousand people waiting a day or two to be transported because of the shortage of railroad cars. Word has gotten around that the Nazis are satisfied that the extermination of the Jews is being carried out with a requisite efficiency. Their deed is being done by the Jewish slaughterers." Scroll of Agony

Do they teach this in school?
Harry 78 | 13,533    
19 Feb 2009  #66

It is not my motive to prove that Jews were more commie or less commie.

No, your point was claiming, twice, that post-war Polish concentration camps were run by Jews who now live in Israel and claim not to be Polish. Look:

Criminals who runed this camps are in Israel.

Tell me more about Post WWII camps and give me commanders names :) Tell me why they live in Israel and claim to be Israelis not Polish.

Ever since you told those lies, I’ve been asking you for details. I have named three of the commanders of the Polish concentration camps and pointed out that two of those three are most certainly not Jewish and have never even been to Israel. I have asked you, six times, for the names of the Jews which you are talking about, the ones who ran the other Polish concentration camps and now live in Israel. You have ignored those requests.

Why have you ignored them? Because you know that your claims are nothing more than lies designed to make Jews look bad.

As to career in post WWII times ... just read the names I have mentioned.

Please do mention the names of the Jews who ran the other Polish concentration camps and now live in Israel. This is now the seventh time I’ve asked you to do that.

Harry is unable to continue debate as Harry

I have this thing called a “life”. It means that I do not post 24/7 on this forum. Perhaps you should consider getting one.
If you would like to talk about being unable to debate, just look at the lies you have been proven to tell in this thread. You think that telling lies is debating? Maybe it is to you, but to the rest of us it is just lying.

I think he has two computers.

Three actually (office and home desktops plus laptop). But I post from all of them as Harry.

Do they teach this in school?

They certainly did in mine. Apparently they didn't in yours (if you actually got any kind of education).
Trevek 27 | 1,703    
19 Feb 2009  #67

I think what this shows is that we need not consider the blueys, spies etc as either Jews or Poles but as (often unscrupulous) individuals who took advantage of th situation for their own gain... and there are plenty of those everywhere.
Prince 15 | 592    
19 Feb 2009  #68

Harry I am not going to argue about this camps. Poland was Soviet occupied ... as Afhganisan was in 80's many soldiers continued fight against comunist regime. Poland was sold by allies 500 000 Polish patriots were closed in prisons after actions made by Berman who ordered to build camps.

You can call this camps as you want.

Many commies were Jews it is simple fact. It doesn't change fact that there were commies of all origins.

Morel was siting in Israel. Wolińska in London... and defended themselfs using their ethnic origin.

It is not anti-semitism it is Polish history.
1jola 14 | 1,893    
19 Feb 2009  #69

1jola: Do they teach this in school?

They certainly did in mine. Apparently they didn't in yours (if you actually got any kind of education).

They taught you about Jewish Gestapo agents in school. Right.

“At the beginning, the time of negotiations, a directive was issued to the Judenrat to deport 6,000 a day; in point of fact they are now deporting close to 10,000. The Jewish police, whose cruelty is no less than that of the Nazis, deliver to the Stawki Street more than the quota to which the Judenrat obligated itself.” Scroll of Agony, p.384

This was also forced down your throat during the Holocaust lessons.

But you probably would rather talk about Polish concentration camps.

You more likely learned this version:

"Obstacles to Resistance
Resistance groups sometimes encountered hostility from the Jewish council (Judenrat) of a ghetto, which feared that the discovery of arms or the flight of Jews to the forest would provoke harsh reprisals from the Germans in accordance with their announced principle of "collective responsibility," whereby the whole community would be punished for any infractions of German regulations. For example, the Jewish council in Nowogrodek was opposed to Jews escaping from the ghetto; here the Jewish police, which was set up to assist the Jewish council in enforcing compliance with German regulations, reportedly used to hide the shoes of Jews they suspected might flee."

That's some funny stuff, eh?
sjam 2 | 541    
19 Feb 2009  #70

You are sad. Did you come up with that one all by yourself? Try this:

Do you have this book? Does page 83 reprint this Frank oder document or is it just a reference to another reference?

From the same wiki source for Polish Bule Police.

According to the German plan, the police force was to consist of approximately 12,000 officers, but the actual number of its cadre was much lower.[4][5] However, some sources put the numbers as high as 14,300.[6] The Encyclopedia of the Holocaust reports its manpower as 8,700 in February 1940 and states that it reached its peak in 1943 with 16,000 members.[7]

If the death penalty was ordered for former Polish Police failing to collaborate with the Nazis in 1939 then why do these wiki article sources state there were 8,700 "Blueys' in 1940 rising to 16,000 in 1943? Was this doubling of manpower because of executions of Polish Police during the intervening years since 1939 giving rise to greater fears amongst those who had until then not collaborated with the Nazis? If so where are these executions?

sjam:
The story of the 13's like that of the Polish Blue Police,

It isn't. 13 and Żagiew were Jewish Gestapo agents. Volunteers.

Just like those Polish Blue Police that were involved in the bribary, smuggling, corruption and murder of Polish Jews, the 13 and Żagiew Jewish Gestapo agents were all self-serving opportunists. If as you say the Polish Blue Police were there under pain of death they weren't forced to be involved the brutal exploitation of the ghetto inhabitants. They volunteered themsleves into it.

So? Without smuggling the people would have starved.

This totally moronic statement says a lot about you as a person.

... Sell me your gold watch for a slice of bread or I'll watch you starve to death....

... I'll sell you my rope to help save you from drowning!

That is probably an acceptable position for you to adopt, but not for a moral person!
Bzibzioh    
19 Feb 2009  #71

The name was first used to describe British camps during the second Boer war.

So, British invention than. Not so great input into world's civilization I'd say. There's an English saying I believe, something about stones and peoples in glass houses...
Harry 78 | 13,533    
19 Feb 2009  #72

Harry I am not going to argue about this camps.

No need to argue. Just post the names of the Jews who you claim ran the Polish concentration camps and now live in Israel. Either that or admit that you were lying, yet again.

Poland was Soviet occupied ... as Afhganisan was in 80's many soldiers continued fight against comunist regime.

But more Polish people co-operated with the regime than fought against it.

Poland was sold by allies

Good to see you falling back to argument number two (i.e. if you can’t blame the Jews, blame the British).

500 000 Polish patriots were closed in prisons after actions made by Berman who ordered to build camps.

Another lie. The camps all already existed: they were converted Nazi camps.
And one would imagine that the decision came from slightly higher up than Berman.

You can call this camp as you want.

We agree that the camps were concentration camps. What we don’t agree on is your repeated refusal to post the names of the Jews who you claim ran the Polish concentration camps and now live in Israel.

Many commies were Jews it is simple fact. Morel was siting in Israel. Wolińska in London...

On that fact we agree. However we do not agree with regard to your claim that the Polish concentration camps were run by Jews who now live in Israel. Either name the names of admit you were lying.

and defended themselfs using their ethnic origin.

Remind me how many extradition requests Poland has made to nations from the CIS regarding NKVD officers or any other people who were involved in the Stalinist crimes of the 1940s and 1950s. Many of those officials now live peacefully in Russia, Ukraine and Belarus. Why has no attempt been made to prosecute them?

And why did Polish authorities spend so much time trying to extradite a Jewish Pole from the UK (Wolińska) but made no effort to try the Catholic Poles who took part in the Fieldorf ‘trial’ and live/lived in Poland (no effort other than opening a case against one woman and then not bothering to make her turn up at the court)?

They taught you about Jewish Gestapo agents in school. Right.

I think I probably know slightly more than you do about what was taught in the history lessons at my school, I mean, I was there and you weren't....

That is probably an acceptable position for you to adopt, but not for a moral person!

You have to remember that to Jola 'they are only Jews': they aren't proper humans, just untermenschen.
sjam 2 | 541    
19 Feb 2009  #73

The Oxford English Dictionary, 2nd ed. defines concentration camp as: a camp where non-combatants of a district are accommodated, such as those instituted by Lord Kitchener during the South African war of 1899-1902; one for the internment of political prisoners, foreign nationals, etc., esp. as organized by the Nazi regime in Germany before and during the war of 1939-45.

Similar camps existed earlier (such as the US concentration camps for Cherokee and other Native Americans in the 1830s, in Cuba (1868-78), and in the Philippines (1898-1901) by Spain under the Restoration and the US respectively[5]), the English term "concentration camp" was first used to describe camps operated by the British in South Africa during the 1899-1902 Second Boer War[6]. Ostensibly conceived as a form of humanitarian aid to the families whose farms had been destroyed in the fighting, the camps were used to confine and control large numbers of civilians as part of a scorched earth tactic.

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Concentration_camp#Concentration_camps

No systematic brutality or torture against the Boers in these concentration camps mentioned here??

The last time concentration camps were used by the British was the forced but relatively peaceful relocation of hundreds of thousands of ethnic Chinese squatters from the edge of the Malayan jungle to "New Villages" during the "Malayan Emergency" to choke off supply and support for the Malayan Communist Party.

And why did Polish authorities spend so much time trying to extradite a Jewish Pole from the UK (Wolińska) but made no effort to try the Catholic Poles who took part in the Fieldorf 'trial' and live/lived in Poland

Or for Pilecki's state murder?

Wait on! Because Poland is still a communist state controlled by Polish Jews!
Prince 15 | 592    
19 Feb 2009  #74

No need to argue. Just post the names of the Jews who you claim ran the Polish concentration camps and now live in Israel. Either that or admit that you were lying, yet again.

MOREL (GOOGLE IT)

But more Polish people co-operated with the regime than fought against it.

:)))))))))))))))) That is why Poland won war agains Soviets in 1920.

Good to see you falling back to argument number two (i.e. if you can’t blame the Jews, blame the British).

No no no. Marek Edelman is Polish hero.

Berman is monster. Wolińska the murder of anti Nazi Polish leaders avoided extradtiton using her ethnic origin. The same as Morel.
Bzibzioh    
19 Feb 2009  #75

Prince: Poland was Soviet occupied ... as Afhganisan was in 80's many soldiers continued fight against comunist regime.

But more Polish people co-operated with the regime than fought against it.

You are out of your mind, Harry. Enjoying slugging Poland festival again?
Harry 78 | 13,533    
19 Feb 2009  #76

MOREL (GOOGLE IT)

We've had this discussion before. We agree on Morel. We do not agree with regard to your claim that the Polish concentration camps were run by Jews who now live in Israel. Either name the names of admit you were lying.

So, British invention than. Not so great input into world's civilization I'd say. There's an English saying I believe, something about stones and peoples in glass houses...

The name was certainly a British invention (although the concept behind the original camps was probably closer to the Strategic Hamlet Program than what was seen in Europe in the 1930s and 1940s).

As to living in glass houses, wouldn't know: I'm not British.
Prince 15 | 592    
19 Feb 2009  #77

It is last Post where I respond you. Camps were build by NKVD. Commusims had no chances in free Poland.

Harry we are allies. Talk about this camps.

I hope more and more people will be interested.
Harry 78 | 13,533    
19 Feb 2009  #78

Camps were build by NKVD.

No they weren't. They were built by the Nazis and then re-used at the order of the NKVD by Poles (both Poles of Jewish descent and Poles of Catholic descent).

Commusims had no chances in free Poland.

Yes, yes, yes. We agree on this. We do not agree with regard to your claim that the Polish concentration camps were run by Jews who now live in Israel. Either name the names of admit you were lying.
Bzibzioh    
19 Feb 2009  #79

I'm not British.

Interesting. Are you picking your nationality depending on the weather or there's another key to your madness?

The name was certainly a British invention (although the concept behind the original camps was probably closer to the Strategic Hamlet Program than what was seen in Europe in the 1930s and 1940s).

You have a real talent for spinning facts I'd say. It's a gift you were born with or you went to uni for that?
sjam 2 | 541    
19 Feb 2009  #80

Sir Timothy John Berners-Lee, OM, KBE, FRS, FREng, FRSA (born 8 June, 1955) is an English computer scientist and MIT professor credited with inventing the World Wide Web.

God bless this Brit for his inventiveness and giving us all the opportunity to be together this fine sunny day! Is he a 'Jew' —I bet he is :-)
Harry 78 | 13,533    
19 Feb 2009  #81

Interesting. Are you picking your nationality depending on the weather or there's another key to your madness?

I'm still considering which nationality I want to be if I want to be any nationality at all.

You have a real talent for spinning facts I'd say. It's a gift you were born with or you went to uni for that?

Would you care to debate the facts by providing evidence which refutes my statements or do you prefer to just engage in personal abuse?

Actually, I think your comments here have already answered that question.
1jola 14 | 1,893    
19 Feb 2009  #82

Do you have this book? Does page 83 reprint this Frank oder document or is it just a reference to another reference?

So you claim this is a myth. You have seen my reference, which is a book on the subject, now show me yours.

If as you say the Polish Blue Police were there under pain of death they weren't forced to be involved the brutal exploitation of the ghetto inhabitants. They volunteered themsleves into it.

We are discussing ghettos. The largest one was in Warsaw. In it, the Polish police was limited to guarding the gates. The Jewish ghetto police and Jewish Gestapo took care of the brutal exploitation of the ghetto inhabitants and rounding people up for Treblinka. As we have seen they often exceeded their quotas. You are not familiar with the subject.

1jola: So? Without smuggling the people would have starved.That is probably an acceptable position for you to adopt, but not for a moral person!

I am immoral and you are not familiar with this subject either. My grandfather gave his wedding band for a few plums during the evacuation of Warsaw. You can't eat gold, brainiac.
Prince 15 | 592    
19 Feb 2009  #83

From first page of this debate:

It is 1918 ... There was no Poland on maps for more than 100 years

In Lviv the Ukrainian residents enthusiastically supported the proclamation, the city's significant Jewish minority accepted or remained neutral towards the Ukrainian proclamation, while the Polish majority was shocked to find themselves in a proclaimed Ukrainian state.

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Julia_Brystiger

She was the daughter of a Jewish pharmacist from Stryj. In 1920 she graduated from a high school in Lwow; later, she studied history at the Lwow University. In 1920, she married a Zionist activist Natan (Nathan) Brystiger[2], and a year later she give birth to a son Michal.

After the joint Nazi and Soviet attack on Poland, Brystiger accepted Soviet Union citizenship and became an active member of the Soviet administration. She created the so-called Committee of Political Prisoners, which helped the NKVD to imprison several members of prewar Polish opposition movements . She was denouncing people on such scale, that she antagonized even Communist party members.

The whole problem is that this people were sooooooo Polish ... but it is another discussion.
1jola 14 | 1,893    
19 Feb 2009  #84

Bzibzioh: Interesting. Are you picking your nationality depending on the weather or there's another key to your madness?

I'm still considering which nationality I want to be if I want to be any nationality at all.

Maybe you should just make aliyah.
Bzibzioh    
19 Feb 2009  #85

Would you care to debate the facts by providing evidence which refutes my statements or do you prefer to just engage in personal abuse?

You, dear, provided enough evidence above. No need for more. Personal abuse? Just curious whether you were blessed naturally or it is learned behaviour.
1jola 14 | 1,893    
19 Feb 2009  #86

sjam: That is probably an acceptable position for you to adopt, but not for a moral person!

You have to remember that to Jola 'they are only Jews': they aren't proper humans, just untermenschen.

What personal abuse?
Harry 78 | 13,533    
19 Feb 2009  #87

From first page of this debate:

Also from the first page of this debate:

Criminals who runed this camps are in Israel.

Tell me more about Post WWII camps and give me commanders names :) Tell me why they live in Israel and claim to be Israelis not Polish.

Are you ever going to provide the names of the Jews which you are talking about, the ones who ran the other Polish concentration camps and now live in Israel?
sjam 2 | 541    
19 Feb 2009  #88

I am immoral and you are not familiar with this subject either. My grandfather gave his wedding band for a few plums during the evacuation of Warsaw. You can't eat gold, brainiac.

How many times did Nazis and their 'Bluey' collaborators (and Jewish Police. 13'set al) try and ease their consciences with that 'you can't eat gold' excuse.

No you can't eat gold and I believe you are that person that took your grandfather's gold ring in exchange for plums... because afterall without smuggling the people would have starved.

BTW:

You have seen my reference, which is a book on the subject

You just copied and pasted a reference you found to a book; not the page itself from the book which shows Franks order document. If anyone has this, which I don't, scan page 83 and post it please.
1jola 14 | 1,893    
19 Feb 2009  #89

Ordinary people were involved in smuggling. The risk was high, and so were the prices. You seem to want to say something, but just don't know how to do it.

quote=sjam]
1jola: You have seen my reference, which is a book on the subject

You just copied and pasted a reference you found to a book; not the page itself from the book which shows Franks order document. If anyone has this, which I don't, scan page 83 and post it please.

Do you have any sources for your info, or is it just your invention?
Sokrates 8 | 3,352    
19 Feb 2009  #90

Food in Poland was expensive due to confiscations, farmers had families to feed too therefore the smuggled food could not be free of charge, smugglers were heroes risking their lives to feed Jews, the punishment for smuggling food was death.

Harry/Sjam claims it was a bad thing to smuggle a scarce resource that could not be simply donated since there wasnt enough around even for Poles.




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