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Ghetto Uprising better known than Warsaw Uprising?


Polonius3 1,000 | 12,449
19 Jun 2010  #1
Even the former president of Germany in Warsaw for a major anniversary of the 1944 Warsaw Uprising in 1994 mistakenly said from the podium something like: 'We have gathered here today to commemorate the Warsaw Ghetto Uprising....'

The ghetto rising is mroe widely publicised in schoolbooks in the West. Why is it that a rising which covered only a fraction of the city's area, was much shorter and claimed far fewer lives is better known than the 1944 upheaval?
1jola 14 | 1,879
19 Jun 2010  #2
Because there is a huge effort from Jewish circles to revise the commonly known fact that they went to slaughter like lambs. No one wants to be known as lacking courage.

Having said that, the Ghetto Uprising was a couragous act with no chance of success. 700 men against the German might was a way of saying: Fvck you, we know we are going to die, but not your way and we will take some of you with us.

Peanus,
There is a good Food section on this forum, I suggest you go there if you don't like to talk about Polish history. Boy, my spelling skills are terrible.
Torq 26 | 2,361
19 Jun 2010  #3
Because there is a huge effort from Jewish circles to revise the commonly known fact that they went to slaughter like lambs.

There were 3 million non-Jewish Poles murdered during WW2. Just as many as Jewish Poles.
Did they went to slaughter like lambs too? It is easy to make such statement, wearing warm
slippers, sitting in front of your computer, drinking tea, but we weren't in those peoples' shoes
so we should refreain from judging them harshly.

No one wants to be known as lacking courage.

I think Jews have proved on many occasions after WW2 that they don't lack courage
(like in 1948, 1967 or 1973 for example).
Seanus 15 | 19,706
19 Jun 2010  #4
I have images of people going round with clipboards and ticking off the dead bodies ;) ;) So many different accounts I've read. This is where it gets disgusting for me. People play with numbers yet don't come near to feeling the scale/magnitude of loss and fear.

Precisely, Torqy, he didn't live in those times and is unaware of the attendant realities.
1jola 14 | 1,879
19 Jun 2010  #5
What about the Polish present? There are very few people here who understand the issues and many, many trolls, children, and 95% who can not read Polish, thus are unable to even understand the issues. Have you ever seen anyone here even mention the role of WSI or FSB on our transformation, economy, relations with neighbouring countries? I am not saying you don't as you are an exception to foreigners on this board. But let us talk about history if we want. You know that the most popular threads here are mindless chat about sexual habits of Polish girls.

There were 3 million non-Jewish Poles murdered during WW2. Just as many as Jewish Poles.
Did they went to slaughter like lambs too? It is easy to make such statement, wearing warm slippers, sitting in front of your computer, drinking tea, but we weren't in those peoples' shoes so we should refreain from judging them harshly.

No, No 3 million Poles were murdered. 3 million lost their lives, and that is a big difference.

This is not my opinion, but the opinion of Jewish people who left us a record of what was hapening at the time. I'll be happy to translate some if you are interested. The reasons for pacivity in light of death are complex, and it has been asked many times before, "Why didn't they fight?" You guys should read more.

Precisely, Torqy, he didn't live in those times and is unaware of the attendant realities.

Same for you.
isthatu2 4 | 2,708
19 Jun 2010  #6
Ghetto Uprising better known than Warsaw Uprising?
You claim people in the west only know of the ghetto uprising.....hhmmm,maybe some do,probably more know of both and even more have never heard of either,the vast majority of people I should imagine fall in the last group.

Lets put it in another context though. At the time of the Ghetto uprising the western powers didnt yet have a foothold in mainland europe,vicious fighting was drawing to a close in North Africa,the second U Boat happy time was in full swing and the war in the far east was going badly for the allies then all of a sudden,from deep in Nazi occupied territory came news of a gallent little last stand and a bloody nose for the germans.

Fast forward to August 1944, Paris rises up against the nazis, British,Canadian, French and American (yes Polish too.) forces are engaged in bitter struggles,V1s are rainning on south east england the war is still dragging out in the far east etc etc,frankly,as far as most people in the west at the time,and therefore their descendents there was far more going on than a "rather silly display of foolish pride" only miles from the advancing Soviet(allied) forces.

You complain about the lack of knowladge regarding the warsaw uprising,but you know what,I know a hell of a lot of people who know the basics,what,who , when,but have yet to meet anyone ,including Poles that knows about the 45 Prague uprising. Yes there may be gaps in "our" knowledge regarding Polish history,but there are huge gaps in " your" knowledge of (real as oppossed to chauvanistic and whinny self pitying blame every bugger else) many aspects of "our" history. I could name many but that would not be the point.
Seanus 15 | 19,706
19 Jun 2010  #7
That's why I tend not to discuss it, Jola. It was a valiant effort and that's all I need to know.
Torq 26 | 2,361
19 Jun 2010  #8
This is not my opinion, but the opinion of Jewish people who left us a record of what was hapening at the time. I'll be happy to translate some if you are interested. The reasons for pacivity in light of death are complex, and it has been asked many times before, "Why didn't they fight?" You guys should read more.

Yes, the reasons are complex and have a lot to do with religion, for example, but if we look
at it from a common sense point of view then we must admit that non-Jewish Poles had
better conditions to fight. They had support of local populations and were more numerous
than Jewish Poles. I still think that saying "They went to slaughter like lambs" is unfair and
doesn't take into account all the factors involved. Oh, and out of 3 million non-Jewish Poles,
how many lost their lives in the armed struggle and how many were murdered in concentration
camps or shot in executions or mass executions?
1jola 14 | 1,879
19 Jun 2010  #9
As a Scot, we have been trampled on and I would never try and underplay the significance of history.

You know, I recently came across a Scottish link in Polish history, and I wanted to translate it and post a thread on it, since there a few Scots here and it would be interesting, me thinks. Trust me, the mods lately discouraged me for doing it, but I think I will get over it after a few days. When were you discouraged not to do that?

I will translate Emanuel Ringelblum's words on what he thought about going to slaughter. This way, you can accuse him or, which is what will happen more likely, you will understand more about this issue. I'm not trying to talk down to you, I just happened to be interested in this period and so much went on in my city. Also we are starting to get more neutral and objective books than in the communist period.
Seanus 15 | 19,706
19 Jun 2010  #10
Well, if you put it that way then I am all for modern sources. I'm really impressed with how Poland has interpreted freedoms after communism. Classic evidence that it was just chained by that oppressive regime and can now silence any commies within its own ranks.

I'd happily try and help with any translation :)
isthatu2 4 | 2,708
19 Jun 2010  #11
Going to slaughter like lambs would,in its awfull way ,be a perfect description of the thousands killed in Wola.
So,wait untill an armed mob is hounding you out of your home in the middle of the night(after 4 years of near starvation diet) along with the surviving members of your family,you are in an unreal,sureal situation,"seriously,do these guys really want to kill me,my wife and my kids?what do I do,throw my shoe at them and try to escape or stay with my family and hope for a last minute reprise? "

I can absoloutly guarentee that no one thinks they are really going to die untill the very seconds before it happens,thats human nature, and human nature has only a few ways of coping with extreme stress,play the danger down or play it up to the point of panic...
David_18 68 | 982
19 Jun 2010  #12
Why is it that a rising which covered only a fraction of the city's area, was much shorter and claimed far fewer lives is better known than the 1944 upheaval?

Lol Easy question ^^. Tell me in which uprising most jews died?

And who owns Hollywood?
plk123 8 | 4,150
20 Jun 2010  #13
Why is it that a rising which covered only a fraction of the city's area, was much shorter and claimed far fewer lives is better known than the 1944 upheaval?

because jews make sure everyone knows about it while Poland doesn't seem to push the warsaw uprising as much..

I think Jews have proved on many occasions after WW2 that they don't lack courage
(like in 1948, 1967 or 1973 for example).

that's only because they knew their asses were covered by americans.. without usa things wouldn't look as peachy for israel..

and 95% who can not read Polish, thus are unable to even understand the issues.

so one cannot understand the issue unless they speak polish? you can't be that stupid jola..

You know that the most popular threads here are mindless chat about sexual habits of Polish girls.

no, the most popular threads here are all about jews, jews and more jews..

"Why didn't they fight?"

why? what happened to this courage torq is so quick to talk about?

Ghetto Uprising better known than Warsaw Uprising?
You claim people in the west only know of the ghetto uprising.

yes, he is right at least this time..

"rather silly display of foolish pride"

wtf??? and the ghetto uprising was a nose bleed to the gremans? oh please..

,but there are huge gaps in " your" knowledge of (real as oppossed to chauvanistic and whinny self pitying blame every bugger else) many aspects of "our" history.

i must agree with you there though.. so true..

It was a valiant effort and that's all I need to know.

seriously? how about "foolish display of pride"?

I still think that saying "They went to slaughter like lambs" is unfair and
doesn't take into account all the factors involved.

i don't as that is exactly how that went down..

When were you discouraged not to do that?

who the fock puts this shlt in like that? identify yourself damn moderator and how about using PM system instead of this shlt?

I can absoloutly guarentee that no one thinks they are really going to die untill the very seconds before it happens,thats human nature, and human nature has only a few ways of coping with extreme stress,play the danger down or play it up to the point of panic...

ever hear of "fight or flight"?
Harry
20 Jun 2010  #14
because jews make sure everyone knows about it while Poland doesn't seem to push the warsaw uprising as much..

Really? Care to point me in the direction of the huge museum of the ghetto uprising?
plk123 8 | 4,150
20 Jun 2010  #15
does it always have to be a museum? how about just pitching it to every publishing house which publishes history books in the west?
yehudi 1 | 432
20 Jun 2010  #16
a huge effort from Jewish circles to revise the commonly known fact that they went to slaughter like lambs.

There's no question that after the war Jews emphasized the heroic uprisings, (Warsaw, Kovno, Vilna, Sobibor, Treblinka, bands in the forests) rather than the masses that were killed with almost no physical resistance. It arouses pride and it's easy to explain. But was Janosz Korchak less of a hero than Mordechai Anilevitch? Was a father who stayed with his terrified kids instead of escaping the ghetto a coward? Can you say that the Jews from Hungary, who when they came out of the cattle trains were already inside the gates of Birkenau and were gassed within hours, were cowards for not organizing resistance within hours? So the real measure of heroism or cowardice is not so simple. I'm sure that many of the Poles who were murdered didn't die with a rifle in their hand either. Maybe that's why Poles emphasize the Warsaw uprising. Everyone wants to look like a hero.
Borrka 37 | 594
20 Jun 2010  #17
yehudi
Very good posting yehudi !
Exactly my point of view.
Torq 26 | 2,361
20 Jun 2010  #18
@Admin:

Make this man a Moderator or give him life-time Gold Membership - he earned it with
his fair, patient, insightful and full of common sense posting. Fair play to you Yehudi,
you're one of the few voices of reason on this forum.
Seanus 15 | 19,706
20 Jun 2010  #19
Well, I would certainly back that, Torq. I may not always agree with what he says but I defend his right to say it (Voltaire). I like his insightfulness and he doesn't take the bait from lurers.

The same goes for Borrka. The problem is their lack of frequency here.
MareGaea 29 | 2,752
20 Jun 2010  #20
I actually have nothing to add to Yehudi's post. Perhaps that he could've mentioned the uprising in Auschwitz as well, but that's a detail. Chapeau, Yehudi :)

>^..^<

M-G (end of discussion - that was quick!)
1jola 14 | 1,879
20 Jun 2010  #21
Everyone wants to look like a hero.

Yes, that is without saying and that is basically what I said in my first post. I offered an expalanation for Polonius's post.

Janusz Korczak was a true hero, everyone knows that, and there were many others who declined being saved by the Poles. That takes real courage. Prominent rabbis were also offered a way out; they declined. Notice that I made no judgements, and used the words 'lacking courage' and not 'cowardice.' If you are familiar with Plato's "Nicomacean Ethics, you will agree these distinctions make more sense, but this is not a lesson in moderation as the situation was exeptional.

This is not my opinion, but the opinion of Jewish people who left us a record of what was hapening at the time. I'll be happy to translate some if you are interested.

I have translated what I think will explain what I was talking about. Let me type it in and things will be clear. You are starting to get a following here, Yehudi, almost as big as I have. :)
Matowy - | 296
20 Jun 2010  #22
I think the words "bravery", "courage", and "cowardice" should be stricken from the dictionary. They are fantasy concepts that have no basis in reality, and they are always used to evoke an emotional response in an audience rather than accurately describing human acts or character. Tabloids and politicians use these words as a means of manipulation, anyone can see that the usages are hollow. The subjectivity of these concepts is so that they may as well not exist at all.

The word "hero" is outright a fantasy concept, as it is applicable mostly to mythology and fiction. Human beings are more complex than some fictional character.
Harry
20 Jun 2010  #23
Janusz Korczak was a true hero

No, Henryk Goldszmit was a true hero. Janusz Korczak was merely a pen name.
1jola 14 | 1,879
20 Jun 2010  #24
This text is from Archiwum Ringelbluma: Dzień po dniu Zagłady. ZIH (2008).

The entry is by Israel Lichtensztajn, a teacher, intellectual, and member of Oneg Szabat, an underground organization in the Warsaw Ghetto which under the Emanuel Ringelblum collected and hid records of Jewish people during the Shoah. Lichtensztajn hid the first of the three portions of this 30,000 piece archive. Two of the three were found after the war.

A little background: this was written on 31 July 1942, ten days after the start of deportations from the Warsaw Ghetto. The [...] are it the book text and are not mine. He uses the word Gmina for Judenrat. (for people not familiar what Gmina Żydowska is). He changes tenses, and I tried to follow, but consider in what situation he was writing. I'm not a professional translator, but have tried to render the best version I could.

If you want to agrue with him about his strong condemnation of the Jewish leadership, it is too late, but you can always take it out on me.

"Isreal Lichtensztajn,

Warszawa, 31 July 1942

[i]We have been betrayed!!!
The horrible process of exterminating Warsaw's Jews is already ten days in progress. Everyday, there are 5 to 10 thousand persons caught and sent from Warsaw. Old people and small children are shot. The rest are shipped away, and with certainty killed od gassed. For this action, Jewish policemen were engaged, who think they will save their lives this way. As it turns out, death will not walk passed thm either. The SS wants to destroy all of Warsaw's Jews.

100 words + URL

Lichtensztajn died fighting in the first days of the Ghetto Uprising.
Bratwurst Boy 5 | 9,609
20 Jun 2010  #25
"Archiwum"???

That's no real name, is it?

No...really...that is no name...right?

Two trolls from Germany, unfortunately one Jewish.

That Jew is from Columbia! Germany denies any connection!!!
1jola 14 | 1,879
20 Jun 2010  #26
What makes you a troll BB is that you posted a minute after my long post, which you have not read. We are clear on that. In fact, you have not read the thread either.

The answer to your question is in my post, the second sentence into the post, to which you didn't even get. Happy trolling, but elsewhere, if you don't mind.
Bratwurst Boy 5 | 9,609
20 Jun 2010  #27
What makes you a troll BB is that you posted a minute after my long post, which you have not read.

I didn't got over the name...sorry!
That is an..erm...unusual name...I thought maybe a pen name or such? I apologize for trolling and will go back to my football thread...
Matowy - | 296
20 Jun 2010  #28
It's not a name, it means "Archive".
yehudi 1 | 432
21 Jun 2010  #30
Fair play to you Yehudi,
you're one of the few voices of reason on this forum.

I reserve the right to be unreasonable, argumentative and one-sided just like anyone else.


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